Prospect Info: C/RW Matthew Savoie, 9th Overall, 2022 NHL Draft - Traded to Moose Jaw 1/4/24

[Jim Bob]

I'm hopeful for Savoie having the full summer to train without restrictions due to injury recovery like last year.

Don't jinx it!

 

[Der Jaeger]

I believe that will be a phase, when the few teams holding onto larger more physical teams keep winning the cup. It will swing back.

The phasing was common in the past. But the trends in youth hockey drive the trends in pro hockey. And USA Hockey and Hockey Canada have been systematically shifting youth hockey into checking only to separate player from puck, with the checker having to touch the puck in the process of the check.

The vast majority of players coming up the system will be of this type. That will make the swing back to the larger and more physical team very hard.

 

[Chainshot]

Don't jinx it!

Who, me?

The phasing was common in the past. But the trends in youth hockey drive the trends in pro hockey. And USA Hockey and Hockey Canada have been systematically shifting youth hockey into checking only to separate player from puck, with the checker having to touch the puck in the process of the check.

The vast majority of players coming up the system will be of this type. That will make the swing back to the larger and more physical team very hard.

Or we will see individual throw-back players who will come up in that environment and will be sought for how they are still capable physical players. I suspect a chunk of why Ryan Leonard is sought after and ranked in the bottom half of the top 10 for this upcoming draft is because of his physical play. If it will translate up will also be interesting to find out.

In the meantime, Savoie does play amidst the trees in the WHL where he's getting inside and making things happen.

 

[HOOats]

I like the outside the box thinking, but the rule is that the player has to be 20 by Dec. 31st of the season in question, not just 20. I like @HOOats line of thinking, that they use an arbitrator to show that he's put in the required seasons since he would have been playing in the WHL if not for COVID shuttering the league.

Right, the line of thinking could be that he essentially played in WHL seasons 4 years apart and what happened in between was out of his control.

This continues to be a weird argument, based in hypotheticals as if a specific philosophy alone should dictate roster decisions, but, I’d trust a 5’9” 180lb 19 year old in the NHL at least as much as a 6’1” 185lb (Quinn’s measurements) 20 year old to be physically ready for the NHL. Savoie isn’t exactly slight. I’d trust Chain more than me on this, but I don’t typically see him getting worked over along the boards. He has the correct build for a short player and I believe he’d hold up fine if the coaches and management, who are in lockstep, think he’s ready and more likely to contribute to team success than some 4th line plug, which they may or may not.

He reminds me of a BattleBot. I submit that his nickname be "The Wedge."

 

[WingsMike]

I'm a bit out of the loop and probably been talked about but what do you guys think his chances are of being invited to the WJC next time around? Got to think he's good enough to probably be a top-line player. Or have him and Hockey Canada totally burned bridges?

 

[Ace]

When people say he needs to get stronger what they’re actually trying to say is has to learn to play against men. Because where he plays isn’t going to affect his weight gain…he’s going to work out and grind either place. In fact…he’d have far better nutritionists and gym coaching in Buffalo. But they don’t actually mean get bigger…they just can’t say learn to play against men because they lose their own argument. He can’t play against men next year unless it’s in Buffalo. He can be the veteran where he is…playing where he already knows how to play.

Its a disingenuous argument. Because it’s based on an arbitrary notion that doesn’t take the player into account at all. It’s an imaginary line drawn that says NO NHL UNTIL 21! It would have been a ridiculous take ten years ago because it dismisses the individual player…but given the shift in the league to being a young man’s game it is now down right asinine.

He is going to come to camp. And if he comes in healthy this time...he’s going to do more than enough to make this team. Deciding he shouldn’t make it no matter what he does is silly. Deciding he won’t because he’s small is silly. He’s a hockey player. Who is incredibly good at playing hockey.

When he shows that he is good enough to make the top league in the world next camp…sending him back to an incredibly lower level of competition is what’s bad for his development.

 

[Yultron]

I'm a bit out of the loop and probably been talked about but what do you guys think his chances are of being invited to the WJC next time around? Got to think he's good enough to probably be a top-line player. Or have him and Hockey Canada totally burned bridges?

If he’s back and junior I fully expect he is on team Canada hands down especially with so many players going pro like Bedard, Guenther, Beck , Othmann, Roy , Dach, Bankier , Dean etc.

And there is a chance Shane Wright and Fantilli could be in the pros .

So Savoie is 100% on the roster if he doesn’t stick with the Sabres past the 9 game mark

 

[sabremike]

When people say he needs to get stronger what they’re actually trying to say is has to learn to play against men. Because where he plays isn’t going to affect his weight gain…he’s going to work out and grind either place. In fact…he’d have far better nutritionists and gym coaching in Buffalo. But they don’t actually mean get bigger…they just can’t say learn to play against men because they lose their own argument. He can’t play against men next year unless it’s in Buffalo. He can be the veteran where he is…playing where he already knows how to play.

Its a disingenuous argument. Because it’s based on an arbitrary notion that doesn’t take the player into account at all. It’s an imaginary line drawn that says NO NHL UNTIL 21! It would have been a ridiculous take ten years ago because it dismisses the individual player…but given the shift in the league to being a young man’s game it is now down right asinine.

He is going to come to camp. And if he comes in healthy this time...he’s going to do more than enough to make this team. Deciding he shouldn’t make it no matter what he does is silly. Deciding he won’t because he’s small is silly. He’s a hockey player. Who is incredibly good at playing hockey.

When he shows that he is good enough to make the top league in the world next camp…sending him back to an incredibly lower level of competition is what’s bad for his development.

But the entire CHL would collapse if guys drafted weren't de facto forced to continue playing in juniors for more than one season. Also would cause a nuclear apocalypse.

 

[Matt Ress]

When people say he needs to get stronger what they’re actually trying to say is has to learn to play against men. Because where he plays isn’t going to affect his weight gain…he’s going to work out and grind either place. In fact…he’d have far better nutritionists and gym coaching in Buffalo. But they don’t actually mean get bigger…they just can’t say learn to play against men because they lose their own argument. He can’t play against men next year unless it’s in Buffalo. He can be the veteran where he is…playing where he already knows how to play.

Its a disingenuous argument. Because it’s based on an arbitrary notion that doesn’t take the player into account at all. It’s an imaginary line drawn that says NO NHL UNTIL 21! It would have been a ridiculous take ten years ago because it dismisses the individual player…but given the shift in the league to being a young man’s game it is now down right asinine.

He is going to come to camp. And if he comes in healthy this time...he’s going to do more than enough to make this team. Deciding he shouldn’t make it no matter what he does is silly. Deciding he won’t because he’s small is silly. He’s a hockey player. Who is incredibly good at playing hockey.

When he shows that he is good enough to make the top league in the world next camp…sending him back to an incredibly lower level of competition is what’s bad for his development.

He won't be the biggest but he might be the quickest guy in camp.

 

[Jim Bob]

But the entire CHL would collapse if guys drafted weren't de facto forced to continue playing in juniors for more than one season. Also would cause a nuclear apocalypse.

It is an entertainment business. I can understand why CHL teams want top players on their rosters as long as possible.

 

[Chainshot]

But the entire CHL would collapse if guys drafted weren't de facto forced to continue playing in juniors for more than one season. Also would cause a nuclear apocalypse.

Yes. It would harm them. It HAS harmed them when teams were allowed to shuffle players back and forth from their junior leagues - Buffalo was one of the worst offenders at it in the '80's with guys like John Tucker and Dave Andreychuk and even Ken Priestley were being yanked from their CHL teams up to the big club on non-injury recalls. It f***s with those teams and THOSE teams are the biggest source of NHL talent, including how they also give transfer fee money to AAA clubs that THEY draft from to keep the mechanism of development going. So rules were made to help keep that association of teams- you know, the one that is responsible for more players in the NHL than any other - more viable so that they can continue to produce talent and continue to fund the levels below them that develop the talent that percolates up to the NHL.

Or let's just be petulant about it instead of realizing that the agreement between the teams is there for the health of both entities and gee, that might mean at some point there is going to be a situation that is mildly inconvenient but instead refer to it in outsized terms like "nuclear apocalypse".

 

[Gabrielor]

It is an entertainment business. I can understand why CHL teams want top players on their rosters as long as possible.

Or let's just be petulant about it instead of realizing that the agreement between the teams is there for the health of both entities and gee, that might mean at some point there is going to be a situation that is mildly inconvenient but instead refer to it in outsized terms like "nuclear apocalypse".

Wait, that wasn't sarcasm? It sure read like sarcasm...

 

[truthbluth]

Yes. It would harm them. It HAS harmed them when teams were allowed to shuffle players back and forth from their junior leagues - Buffalo was one of the worst offenders at it in the '80's with guys like John Tucker and Dave Andreychuk and even Ken Priestley were being yanked from their CHL teams up to the big club on non-injury recalls. It f***s with those teams and THOSE teams are the biggest source of NHL talent, including how they also give transfer fee money to AAA clubs that THEY draft from to keep the mechanism of development going. So rules were made to help keep that association of teams- you know, the one that is responsible for more players in the NHL than any other - more viable so that they can continue to produce talent and continue to fund the levels below them that develop the talent that percolates up to the NHL.

Or let's just be petulant about it instead of realizing that the agreement between the teams is there for the health of both entities and gee, that might mean at some point there is going to be a situation that is mildly inconvenient but instead refer to it in outsized terms like "nuclear apocalypse".

Making me relieved I didn't post my, "I think the CHL agreement is actually a good thing," post since I don't have the benefit of rembering the 80's and being able to bring historical facts to the argument. Thanks old man.

 

[Chainshot]

Wait, that wasn't sarcasm? It sure read like sarcasm...

My response or the post I quoted?

Making me relieved I didn't post my, "I think the CHL agreement is actually a good thing," post since I don't have the benefit of rembering the 80's and being able to bring historical facts to the argument. Thanks old man.

Yeah, I am now old man yelling at sky. ╰（‵□′）╯

Bowman is the founder of this feast because he was constantly f***ing over CHL teams with his recall habits. And I get that people think that it's all about the team they root for, but when the CHL teams go out of business, that hurts the AAA teams below them... and the midget teams below them... and the U12 teams below them... and so on and so on. It hurts participation and takes away development opportunities. It's a pyramid where the transfer fees slide down from the pinnacle.

Circling back to the topic - Winnipeg opens against Medicine Hat on Friday. I can't wait to listen to them call Bogdan Hodass' name for this series.

 

[Matt Ress]

My response or the post I quoted?



Yeah, I am now old man yelling at sky. ╰（‵□′）╯

Bowman is the founder of this feast because he was constantly f***ing over CHL teams with his recall habits. And I get that people think that it's all about the team they root for, but when the CHL teams go out of business, that hurts the AAA teams below them... and the midget teams below them... and the U12 teams below them... and so on and so on. It hurts participation and takes away development opportunities. It's a pyramid where the transfer fees slide down from the pinnacle.

Circling back to the topic - Winnipeg opens against Medicine Hat on Friday. I can't wait to listen to them call Bogdan Hodass' name for this series.

I think it was derived from the Old Norse name, HoldTheDoorWithYourAss.
We lost so much genealogy from early 20th century immigration administration.

 

[Gabrielor]

My response or the post I quoted?

the latter

 

[sabremike]

Yes. It would harm them. It HAS harmed them when teams were allowed to shuffle players back and forth from their junior leagues - Buffalo was one of the worst offenders at it in the '80's with guys like John Tucker and Dave Andreychuk and even Ken Priestley were being yanked from their CHL teams up to the big club on non-injury recalls. It f***s with those teams and THOSE teams are the biggest source of NHL talent, including how they also give transfer fee money to AAA clubs that THEY draft from to keep the mechanism of development going. So rules were made to help keep that association of teams- you know, the one that is responsible for more players in the NHL than any other - more viable so that they can continue to produce talent and continue to fund the levels below them that develop the talent that percolates up to the NHL.

Or let's just be petulant about it instead of realizing that the agreement between the teams is there for the health of both entities and gee, that might mean at some point there is going to be a situation that is mildly inconvenient but instead refer to it in outsized terms like "nuclear apocalypse".

And there could be a happy medium where guys are allowed to go to either the AHL (or even the ECHL) when it's clear that they are facing opposition that is beneath them and they should advance for the betterment of their own development.

 

[SnuggaRUDE]

The NHL would be better if players were drafted at 19. Thank you for coming to my TED talk.

 

[Jim Bob]

The NHL would be better if players were drafted at 19. Thank you for coming to my TED talk.

I doubt the talent at the NHL changes much.

The NBA shifted things and you still get draft busts and the league is not markedly better because of that change.

 

[Chainshot]

The NHL would be better if players were drafted at 19. Thank you for coming to my TED talk.

The players won a court challenge under Canadian right-to-work laws so that is why it's 18.

 

[SnuggaRUDE]

I doubt the talent at the NHL changes much.

The NBA shifted things and you still get draft busts and the league is not markedly better because of that change.

You'd get fewer, the value of 2nds and 3rds would go up. Ideally it'd be like the NFL and everyone would be 20. There's still busts, but considerably fewer.

The players won a court challenge under Canadian right-to-work laws so that is why it's 18.

Doesn't mean the NHL wouldn't be better for it.

 

[Zman5778]

And there could be a happy medium where guys are allowed to go to either the AHL (or even the ECHL) when it's clear that they are facing opposition that is beneath them and they should advance for the betterment of their own development.

I think the best scenario all around would be something like every team gets to use 1 exception every 4-5 years where they can put a guy in the AHL specifically. Yes, it takes a bit of top-end talent out of the CHL system but it's not crippling. And I'm not even sure that every team uses their exception every 4-5 years.

 

[Gras]

I doubt the talent at the NHL changes much.

The NBA shifted things and you still get draft busts and the league is not markedly better because of that change.

They shifted it because the NCAA was too pissed about not getting the top tier talent and that hurts their bottom line.

 

[Jim Bob]

They shifted it because the NCAA was too pissed about not getting the top tier talent and that hurts their bottom line.

The NBA doesn’t care about the NCAA.

Kwame Brown being an epic bust was a much bigger factor.

 

[BishesLoveHossa]

Savoie second team all star in the East Division

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