C Mitchell Marner - London Knights, OHL (2015, 4th, TOR) IV

[Judas Tavares]

There was certainly criticism of all of our players in this particular WJC's, justified based on our result. It was not exclusive to one player. Some players got more flak, because of ice time, and they are generally regarded to be the best players on the team. But this is not because they are from a particular team. I wish we could praise and critique a player without the 'hate' card being thrown around by some here, it is a reply that is far too often used here.

Based on your reply I agree for the most. Marner had some good this tourney, for instance his play on the PP was very good this tourney as it is on London. The things you mention he needs to work on I agree on too. Being more simple when he makes the pros. That's one I mentioned in the WJC threads. When he was more simple, he was more effective. And the one thing you didn't mention, that is out of his control is he needs to add strength. Can he grow from 18-19? Sure he can. Right now he has not hit his growth spurt. But I think we can agree this is an area he really needs to show some progress in. It is one thing to be pushed off the puck by juniors, it is another thing to be pushed off the puck by NHL'ers.

He has the skill to be an offensive player, there will be no disagreement by anyone here. But when you pick a player 4th overall in a draft with 2 generational talents. I think most want more than a points producing winger. Can Marner be more than this? I think he can. We will see, but certain things have to happen for him to get there. Which may mean a longer timeframe rather than shorter for Mitch.

While I agree centre and defence is of greater importance than a winger, I feel like the wing position has been severely downgraded here on HF and is extremely underrated.

For Leaf fans, it was pinning the franchise on a point producing winger with no two-way game and the thirst for a top centre since Sundin left. For the rest of the boards, it's the HF obsession with a 1LC.

In fact, I think winger has become somewhat of a dirty word here, to the point where if a prospect is a winger, the consensus is that his stock should be far lower. Again, another factor could be guys like Niederreiter or Yakupov, taken high and not being studs.

But in the end, the game still has wingers and they are important. If a player projects to be a high point producing two-way winger, that is extremely valuable, even if HF puts its walls up.

 

[nbwingsfan]

This thread reminds me so much of Rielly's WJC performance

Let the haters hate, the Leafs are pumping out studs.

He was a 4th overall... anything less than a stud would really be a failure for the Leafs.

He was probably the second best forward behind Strome though, which is exactly to be expected.

 

[Pyromaniac]

The 4th pick comment is a bit of a deception. How many drafts can boast a generational like Mcdavid or Eichel going 1-2. Take them out, and Marner would have been the #2 pick last year. I think it would be more accurate to term Marner's pick position as a high top 5 pick rather than just comparing him to other #4 picks. If one wants to make an assertion his progress is on path as other top 4 picks.

In this situation, I would rather look at players compared to others in their draft class, and base my analysis to where they were picked. But based on what we observed in this WJC, I would say Crouse, Barzal, Konecny are a lot closer to Marner than draft position would indicate if we are speaking about comparable performances.

I like Crouse but he showed absolutely nothing this tournament. In fact he was better last year than what he showed this year.

I don't think it's even fair to compare him to Marner as there is a vast difference in talent there. He got a lot of hate on HF last year precisely for being compared to prospects like Marner and Strome. I think he went exactly where he should have in the draft

 

[Apotheosis]

I'm still confused as to why non-Leafs fans come in here bashing Marner. What do you get out of it?

 

[Blender]

I'm still confused as to why non-Leafs fans come in here bashing Marner. What do you get out of it?

"Bashing"? So anything but unconditional praise of his greatness is a bash now?

This is a discussion board, for discussions. Perhaps most people legitimately want to discuss the strengths, weaknesses, development, and projection of a top prospect without the ridiculous hyperbole, such as your post.

 

[TheLeastOfTheBunch]

Hate is the wrong term in this case. Just that it's obvious who's only watched Marner play in the WJC, and who's watched him play both in the OHL and WJC. The tournament hasn't changed my view of him as a prospect, even though it's the nature of this board to scrutinize prospects based on their WJC performances. Having said that, a lot of new posters in this thread are saying the exact same thing most Leaf fans have been saying since Marner played in the NHL rookie tourny (get stronger, cut down on junior plays, pick his spots - shooting or passing the puck - better, etc).

Tough to say if he cracks Babcock's team next year. Not sure if there's anything to learn/improve at the junior level for him (aside from getting stronger), and you can bet his London coaches will continue to give him long shifts to play, and they will also encourage what a lot of us call "high risk junior plays."

 

[UsernameWasTaken]

I'm still confused as to why non-Leafs fans come in here bashing Marner. What do you get out of it?

Given there is a thread devoted to Marner on the Leafs board, then why bother posting in this one at all? You obviously don't like anything that isn't entirely positive. Wouldn't you be happier sticking to the fan board for your team?

 

[Coaches Coroner]

"Bashing"? So anything but unconditional praise of his greatness is a bash now?

This is a discussion board, for discussions. Perhaps most people legitimately want to discuss the strengths, weaknesses, development, and projection of a top prospect without the ridiculous hyperbole, such as your post.

It happens in a lot of threads. People were acting the same way in Zacha threads when non-Devil fans discussed him in less than a praising light a while back as I recall. Virtanen thread another example. These threads always get derailed because you will have one or two sensitive fans complaining (sometimes more depending), and then you'll have 2-4 other posters responding to and arguing with the over sensitive fans about who should post where, rather than ignoring them and keeping the discussion on topic, about the prospect.

 

[Pyromaniac]

It happens in a lot of threads. People were acting the same way in Zacha threads when non-Devil fans discussed him in less than a praising light a while back as I recall. Virtanen thread another example. These threads always get derailed because you will have one or two sensitive fans complaining (sometimes more depending), and then you'll have 2-4 other posters responding to and arguing with the over sensitive fans about who should post where, rather than ignoring them and keeping the discussion on topic, about the prospect.

I agree.

This is the sad reality of the prospect forum. Probably the reason why half the posts made get deleted.

 

[Apotheosis]

"Bashing"? So anything but unconditional praise of his greatness is a bash now?

This is a discussion board, for discussions. Perhaps most people legitimately want to discuss the strengths, weaknesses, development, and projection of a top prospect without the ridiculous hyperbole, such as your post.

It's not hyperbolic in any sense. People come into this thread to openly say "Oh, he's not living up to his draft status" -> "Over hyped" or whatever other drivel people spew. When Leaf fans openly defend him and give VALID point for the less than stellar tournament, people like you belittle us by saying all we do is praise him. If you actually came to the Leafs board, you would realize that we're actually some of the most openly critical fans of our own players. We're not blinded by bias. If someone has a bad game then we let it be known. He's not your prospect so you shouldn't have a need to discuss him.

 

[McDNicks17]

This is the prospects board.

People are here to talk about prospects.

It's time to get back to discussing the prospect rather than discussing who is and who should be discussing him.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

I like Crouse but he showed absolutely nothing this tournament. In fact he was better last year than what he showed this year.

I don't think it's even fair to compare him to Marner as there is a vast difference in talent there. He got a lot of hate on HF last year precisely for being compared to prospects like Marner and Strome. I think he went exactly where he should have in the draft

To be fair, Crouse had 1 less point than Marner all tournament with far less PP time. Like Marner both had 2 points in the 1/4 final game against Finland. They were a lot more similar than dissimilar from my recollection.

 

[WetcoastOrca]

I'm still confused as to why non-Leafs fans come in here bashing Marner. What do you get out of it?

This is the general Prospects thread and not the one on the Leaf's Board. Therefore you're going to get some non Leaf fans commenting in a prospect. And some of it may be critical. Same with any other propsect on the Main Board. I hope this helps clear up your confusion.

 

[PWJunior]

To be fair, Crouse had 1 less point than Marner all tournament with far less PP time. Like Marner both had 2 points in the 1/4 final game against Finland. They were a lot more similar than dissimilar from my recollection.

Considering Marner got a crap ton of ice time, he better have outscored everyone. That's why Marner stood out so much in the tourney (good or bad) because he was always out there. Same goes for Strome and Point - biggest sample sizes to dissect. That's why Virtanen stood out so much (mostly negative) as well.

For the extreme hype surrounding those players as the go to guys (clearly indicated by deployment and TOI), the disappointing showing has the spotlight on them. Those Finnish kids were amazing and they are draft eligibles - that's how Marner and Co. should have played to deserve real praise. It wasn't even close really as Puljujarvi and Laine were superior to any Canadian player in production and impact. Those kids screamed, 'oh my god, these kids are studs'. That's what I expected from Marner and was wholly let down.

 

[lawrence]

Considering Marner got a crap ton of ice time, he better have outscored everyone. That's why Marner stood out so much in the tourney (good or bad) because he was always out there. Same goes for Strome and Point - biggest sample sizes to dissect. That's why Virtanen stood out so much (mostly negative) as well.

For the extreme hype surrounding those players as the go to guys (clearly indicated by deployment and TOI), the disappointing showing has the spotlight on them. Those Finnish kids were amazing and they are draft eligibles - that's how Marner and Co. should have played to deserve real praise. It wasn't even close really as Puljujarvi and Laine were superior to any Canadian player in production and impact. Those kids screamed, 'oh my god, these kids are studs'. That's what I expected from Marner and was wholly let down.

amen.

I expected Strome/Marner to lead Canada, honestly speaking, they were our "2 finns" counter.

 

[amack081]

amen.

I expected Strome/Marner to lead Canada, honestly speaking, they were our "2 finns" counter.

And when Marner played those 2 Finn stars he was easily Canada's most dynamic player.

The reason Canada lost to Finland was not due to Marner's play on the ice.

Whether Marner is a better prospect compared to those two Finns is up to debate, but it doesn't decrease Marner's merit as an elite prospect.

 

[93LEAFS]

And when Marner played those 2 Finn stars he was easily Canada's most dynamic player.

The reason Canada lost to Finland was not due to Marner's play on the ice.

Whether Marner is a better prospect compared to those two Finns is up to debate, but it doesn't decrease Marner's merit as an elite prospect.

Those two fins had Aho who is a good prospect excelling in Finland, Marner and Strome when together had Quenville. Marner also did a good job matched up against those Fins. Something was off with Point all tourny, but Perlini was terrible on that line. Marner had his ups and downs but was one of the few who showed up vs Finland.

 

[JL17]

Tough to say if he cracks Babcock's team next year. Not sure if there's anything to learn/improve at the junior level for him (aside from getting stronger), and you can bet his London coaches will continue to give him long shifts to play, and they will also encourage what a lot of us call "high risk junior plays."

Dale Hunter is the exact opposite of Babcock. Everything you described will continue to happen in London. Babcock likes those 40-45 second shifts well in London Mitch will probably get double that per shift maybe even triple. When Marner does go pro Babcock will have some work to do with him.

 

[ottawah]

He was a 4th overall... anything less than a stud would really be a failure for the Leafs.

I'm not sure of your definition of stud, but top 4 overall average genarlly fall in the range of a third line player, with 50% making it as a top 6 forward/top 4 dman. Third liners generally aveage about 25 points, so IMHO thats not a stud.

http://www2.tsn.ca/fantasy_news/story/?id=455673

If he turned into a top 6 winger at 30 points, that better than average and over the 50% median, but not someone who would hardly be called a stud.

I think most people do not realize just how drastic the drop off is after first line players in terms of scoring, and how drastic the drop off is in value of draft picks (see above link). TB for example last year had significant scoring and great balance. Top 6 there was 48 points, top 9 24 points. Buffalo, the worst team saw 24 being a second line player, 16 being a third line player.

I believe he is going to be noticably better than that.

 

[Atomos2]

The issue with Marner is that he needs to "literally" grow up. I don't mean it to be harsh, but his game needs to mature, his body needs to mature, his attitude (at times) needs to mature, he just needs to grow up. Which should happen in time but you can see these deficiencies right now.

It has nothing to do with his talent as he is elite in that aspect. On ice, he can be an incredible player, especially when he gets hot, but...he just needs to grow up.

 

[ponder]

The issue with Marner is that he needs to "literally" grow up. I don't mean it to be harsh, but his game needs to mature, his body needs to mature, his attitude (at times) needs to mature, he just needs to grow up. Which should happen in time but you can see these deficiencies right now.

It has nothing to do with his talent as he is elite in that aspect. On ice, he can be an incredible player, especially when he gets hot, but...he just needs to grow up.

Somewhat agreed, but in terms of his attitude he sounds like a great teammate and a very hard worker, no issues there IMO. Also seems very committed to the defensive end of the ice, something you don't often see in highly skilled teenagers.

He does need to improve his ability to win puck battles - part of this is getting bigger/stronger, part of it is timing/angles. Guys like Giroux and Kane are good at winning puck battles despite being pretty small and weak, because they just time their moves perfectly and really know how to angle off opposing players. Marner will need to improve both his physical strength and his puck-battle skills, in the World Juniors he was definitely getting pushed off the puck too often.

He also needs to learn to play more within a team concept, where he isn't the superstar. He's a major roamer, goes all over the ice and doesn't stick to a position at all. In the OHL he's crazy dominant, so this works, but even in the World Juniors it was an issue, and it will be a bigger issue in the NHL. Needs to learn to dominate offensively with more constraints (stick more to his wing, make fewer high risk dekes, etc.).

Not worried about Marner at all long term, I think he's going to be a star - just so talented, and seems to have a great attitude. In the short term, though, he does have some growing up to do in specific areas before he's ready for the NHL. Really wish we could have him in the AHL, but it's not an option this year or next. Either he makes big strides this offseason, and makes the NHL next year, or he plays another semi-waster year in juniors.

 

[Atomos2]

Somewhat agreed, but in terms of his attitude he sounds like a great teammate and a very hard worker, no issues there IMO. Also seems very committed to the defensive end of the ice, something you don't often see in highly skilled teenagers.

He does need to improve his ability to win puck battles - part of this is getting bigger/stronger, part of it is timing/angles. Guys like Giroux and Kane are good at winning puck battles despite being pretty small and weak, because they just time their moves perfectly and really know how to angle off opposing players. Marner will need to improve both his physical strength and his puck-battle skills, in the World Juniors he was definitely getting pushed off the puck too often.

He also needs to learn to play more within a team concept, where he isn't the superstar. He's a major roamer, goes all over the ice and doesn't stick to a position at all. In the OHL he's crazy dominant, so this works, but even in the World Juniors it was an issue, and it will be a bigger issue in the NHL. Needs to learn to dominate offensively with more constraints (stick more to his wing, make fewer high risk dekes, etc.).

Not worried about Marner at all long term, I think he's going to be a star - just so talented, and seems to have a great attitude. In the short term, though, he does have some growing up to do in specific areas before he's ready for the NHL. Really wish we could have him in the AHL, but it's not an option this year or next. Either he makes big strides this offseason, and makes the NHL next year, or he plays another semi-waster year in juniors.

For the attitude part, I may have been a bit vague. I didn't mean he wasn't a good teammate or that he did other things that were detrimental to the team, it was more to do with what we saw in the WJ (and he was not the only one guilty of this because the whole Canadian team including the coaching staff showed their immaturity). He needs to be able to keep his composure and not be swayed in a negative manner by the events happening in an important game. He needs to mature to better handle the pressure he and others will put on him.

But you hit the nail right on the head with the bolded part. I completely agree with everything you said there exactly the way you said it.

And I'm not worried either.

 

[HarrisonFord]

For the attitude part, I may have been a bit vague. I didn't mean he wasn't a good teammate or that he did other things that were detrimental to the team, it was more to do with what we saw in the WJ (and he was not the only one guilty of this because the whole Canadian team including the coaching staff showed their immaturity). He needs to be able to keep his composure and not be swayed in a negative manner by the events happening in an important game. He needs to mature to better handle the pressure he and others will put on him.

But you hit the nail right on the head with the bolded part. I completely agree with everything you said there exactly the way you said it.

And I'm not worried either.

Agreed as well. I think it's exactly the reason why Marner won't make the automatic jump into the NHL like some might expect. A year in the AHL will do a world of good

 

[Pyrophorus]

He also needs to learn to play more within a team concept, where he isn't the superstar. He's a major roamer, goes all over the ice and doesn't stick to a position at all. In the OHL he's crazy dominant, so this works, but even in the World Juniors it was an issue, and it will be a bigger issue in the NHL. Needs to learn to dominate offensively with more constraints (stick more to his wing, make fewer high risk dekes, etc.).

I asked if was really a kind of a rover.

He is all over the place, but will it, can it translate to the NHL?

People are really hung up on positions, Marner might the guy who defies the traditional view.

 

[HarrisonFord]

I asked if was really a kind of a rover.

He is all over the place, but will it, can it translate to the NHL?

People are really hung up on positions, Marner might the guy who defies the traditional view.

The most viable position for that to work in is at center IMO