C Mitchell Marner - London Knights, OHL (2015, 4th, TOR) IV

[WTFMAN99]

How are people forgetting that? Are you suggesting it shouldn't count? Should Marner's points total be reduced because he only registered two points 5v5 and they were against Denmark?

Also, I don't know how you can complain about other people bashing Leafs prospects - you had less than charitable things to say about other prospects during the tournament. You don't seem any different than the people you are complaining about.

There's nothing about Marner's tournament that should make Leafs fans feel anything less than great about Marner. It was a small sample size and he was one of the best players on an incompetently coached team - there were things about his play that he himself could have improved on. But with better coaching I also think he would have produced better results.

Just saying if you're going to bash someone, make sure it's for someone who actually deserves it.

Point, Perlini, Queenville, and Virtanen had pretty a pretty awful WJC - In the grand scheme of things it really doesn't mean much.

It's also only fair to point out some good in prospects we've seen too. I really liked Werenski, Milano, and Dvorak on the U.S. I thought they had a great tournament. Ditto Nedeljokovic (I totally butchered his name).

Malgin for the Swiss was good, plays bigger then his size suggests and he had nice skill. Alexander True was really intriguing watching him, he had tunnel vision sometimes but you can see the skill was there.

Mitchell Stephens and Travis Kocecny I thought brought a lot of energy, and Ottawa has a good one in Chabot. I really wanted Stephens (at the draft) as a Leaf fan.

Provorov was steady, you can see the poise in his game.

There I just dished out some really nice compliments for prospects that I thought had a good tournament. My opinion probably doesn't count for much anyway, and it's a short tournament, if you go cold at the wrong time it just sucks (for lack of a better word) for a player unfortunately.

Either way, I think Marner did great and people didn't seem to appreciate the little things he was doing. Not saying that Dylan Strome's points shouldn't count either, but the way he was spoken about compared to Marner at times was a little perplexing, that is all.

 

[UsernameWasTaken]

Just saying if you're going to bash someone, make sure it's for someone who actually deserves it.

Point, Perlini, Queenville, and Virtanen had pretty a pretty awful WJC - In the grand scheme of things it really doesn't mean much.

It's also only fair to point out some good in prospects we've seen too. I really liked Werenski, Milano, and Dvorak on the U.S. I thought they had a great tournament. Ditto Nedeljokovic (I totally butchered his name).

Malgin for the Swiss was good, plays bigger then his size suggests and he had nice skill. Alexander True was really intriguing watching him, he had tunnel vision sometimes but you can see the skill was there.

Mitchell Stephens and Travis Kocecny I thought brought a lot of energy, and Ottawa has a good one in Chabot. I really wanted Stephens (at the draft) as a Leaf fan.

Provorov was steady, you can see the poise in his game.

There I just dished out some really nice compliments for prospects that I thought had a good tournament. My opinion probably doesn't count for much anyway, and it's a short tournament, if you go cold at the wrong time it just sucks (for lack of a better word) for a player unfortunately.

Either way, I think Marner did great and people didn't seem to appreciate the little things he was doing. Not saying that Dylan Strome's points shouldn't count either, but the way he was spoken about compared to Marner at times was a little perplexing, that is all.

I'm not bashing Marner. I've said consistently that (1) I think he was one of the team's best players; and (2) that the extreme criticism he got was unfair. The fact my assessment of his play is not unequivocally positive does not amount to "bashing". Good grief.

The reason Strome didn't take the heat he did is because he started off the tournament a little better, while Marner struggled more obviously...which meant people had already started to criticize Marner and just kept it up. If you want to complain about someone being unjustifiably pumped over Marner, why don't you point at Barzal - someone who had some terrible moments that weren't mentioned and then was named as one of Canada's top 3 players when Marner deserved to be named as such instead (or at least instead of Hicketts, who was also awful, despite coaching and TSN's love affair with him).

 

[WTFMAN99]

I'm not bashing Marner. I've said consistently that (1) I think he was one of the team's best players; and (2) that the extreme criticism he got was unfair. The fact my assessment of his play is not unequivocally positive does not amount to "bashing". Good grief.

The reason Strome didn't take the heat he did is because he started off the tournament a little better, while Marner struggled more obviously...which meant people had already started to criticize Marner and just kept it up. If you want to complain about someone being unjustifiably pumped over Marner, why don't you point at Barzal - someone who had some terrible moments that weren't mentioned and then was named as one of Canada's top 3 players when Marner deserved to be named as such instead (or at least instead of Hicketts, who was also awful, despite coaching and TSN's love affair with him).

Think we're having broken telephone, you didn't bash him.

Also agreed, Marner should have definitely been in that top 3 over Barzal.

 

[Atomos2]

He tied Strome for the team lead in scoring, something I've noticed Leafs fans tend to forget.

Also, how was he "by far the most clutch player when it counted"? Because of the two third period goals in the quarterfinals? Because the penalty he took at the end of the period to negate a power play was decidedly "unclutch" of him.

People saying he had a bad tournament are just ridiculous. He was one of the best players, albeit on an underachieving team. But let's not exaggerate his play - it was very uneven and there were definitely bad moments mixed in with the good.

I agree with everything else you said, but taking a penalty at that time has nothing to do with being/not being clutch. It's about immaturity which was evident with the entire team as well as the coaching staff.

Being clutch means raising your game to a higher level in times when that level is needed the most. Taking a dumb retaliation penalty has nothing to do with that. Like I said, its just immaturity.

 

[Apotheosis]

It was an obvious penalty and it was a stupid, undisciplined thing to do at a terrible time.

You complain about Marner's linemates (something I notice people doing a lot) - but you don't mention the fact he seemed completely unable to make basic adjustments to his play.

The lengthy shifts certainly did not help - but that's more the fault of the coach for allowing that to happen.

If it was so obvious, then why didn't the Finnish player get an offsetting penalty as well?

I don't do that often, but if you watched the games, you will have noticed. Marner would dazzle with a beautiful pass, and then guys like Point would become a black hole for puck possession. Either would dump it lazily and then fail the forecheck, or miss the puck altogether. He was on a different level than his line mates creatively. He only meshed well with Strome on occasion when they decided to turn it up and it showed.

And yes, disgustingly bad coaching.

 

[UsernameWasTaken]

If it was so obvious, then why didn't the Finnish player get an offsetting penalty as well?

I don't do that often, but if you watched the games, you will have noticed. Marner would dazzle with a beautiful pass, and then guys like Point would become a black hole for puck possession. Either would dump it lazily and then fail the forecheck, or miss the puck altogether. He was on a different level than his line mates creatively. He only meshed well with Strome on occasion when they decided to turn it up and it showed.

And yes, disgustingly bad coaching.

The Finnish player did not get the offsetting penalty because in IIHF competitions it is fairly common for the refs to grab one player, often the "last offender". As annoyed as Marner was he should have just skated away rather than responding. He is not a bad person or bad player for having taken the penalty. But it was a foolish one to have taken.

Marner did in fact dazzle only to be met with a black hole linemates on occasion. He also spent time showboating only to turn the puck over. As I've said consistently, there were good things about his play and bad things about his play. There were negatives about his play which, quite frankly, were the result of incompetent coaching. There were also negatives about his play which were mistakes of his own.

I'm not really sold on the Marner/Strome chemistry thing. I also have to say sometimes they created their own problems by playing too fancy together. Part of this was their fault. Part of it was coaching's fault.

Something I've sometimes been critical of Marner of is selfish play - I've noticed that some people get sensitive about the fact Strome isn't criticized in the same way as Marner is - so I should observe that Strome himself can be an *unbelievably* selfish player...I think because Strome's playing style isn't as flashy as Marner's it's not immediately noticeable unless you've seen a lot of both players...but Strome is often guilty of exactly the same things that Marner is, except his playing style disguises it a bit more so he isn't criticized.

 

[Mats13]

Both Marner and Stome's stock dropped IMO. They were both supposed to be counted on offence, and they both did not deliver.

This one one of the if not the worst Canada JR team I have ever seen.

Marner is a Gagner clone, not that there is anything wrong with that but he is so similar in JR it is Erie.

Why do these guys bother? As soon as you compare him to Sam Gagner you basically just confirm that you never actually watch him.

Oh and WJC is everything isn't it? Brayden Schenn >> Ryan Johansen am I right?

 

[Menzinger]

Why do these guys bother? As soon as you compare him to Sam Gagner you basically just confirm that you never actually watch him.

Oh and WJC is everything isn't it? Brayden Schenn >> Ryan Johansen am I right?

Not to mention if you look at historical comparisons Marner was well in line with former top 5 draft picks.

 

[jjjshab]

Sam Gagner piggy backed off Patrick Kane quite a bit, also not nearly as good defensively. Are you going by the comparison of same Jr. team because it sounds like you never watched Sam Gagner in Jr.

ANYWAYS

Watching right now, still REALLY interesting to me how Marner plays high in the offensive zone, and goes deep in his own while Dvorak does a lot of the board work like a winger despite being a centre.

Marner COULD be a winger at the NHL level but he plays like a centre to me.

I mean, he's not so hot along the boards

 

[WTFMAN99]

I mean, he's not so hot along the boards

He's just not strong at all right now, he needs to get stronger.

 

[ulvvf]

Marner pass the eye test even if you could expect more statswise.

 

[Blender]

He most definitely was a disappointment in the tournament, but that doesn't really change anything about him as a prospect or how he projects.

People keep rattling off about how he was "one of the top players on Canada", but I don't really care how he compares to Quenneville, Point, etc. If that is the bar for Marner's play, why was he possibly drafted 4th overall? I was expecting him and Strome to be top guys in the tournament, to compare in play and production with the top players from the USA, Sweden, Finland, and Russia. They neither played as well as those players, nor produced offense on the same level.

I think Strome got less criticism because he was fairly consistent through most of the tournament, while Marner would peak much better in a game, but his low was so much worse. It was frustrating to watch at times to see a player you knew could be doing so much better because you see it in the same game, just not perform up to standards.

 

[Plub]

Marner is the victim of being an 18 year old kid who put a ton of pressure on himself. TSN reported Lowry had to have a talk with him and got him to relax on that and just play - their last game was the result where he was easily their best player and played the most dominating game any TC player had played in the tourney in a must win game, (And he still wasn't playing as good as he can). Top 5? - try top 2, if not tops.

Certainly not tops. I think top 5 is a fair assessment. He did have only 2(?) 5on5 points, correct? Hardly the most dominating player. Unless the expectations are for him to be a PP specialist.

Sam Gagner piggy backed off Patrick Kane quite a bit, also not nearly as good defensively. Are you going by the comparison of same Jr. team because it sounds like you never watched Sam Gagner in Jr.

ANYWAYS

Watching right now, still REALLY interesting to me how Marner plays high in the offensive zone, and goes deep in his own while Dvorak does a lot of the board work like a winger despite being a centre.

Marner COULD be a winger at the NHL level but he plays like a centre to me.

I agree it is silly to compare him to Gags. Marner is far more capable of dictating play, at least in the OHL. I expect him to be much more of an impact player than Gags ever was.

As for why he plays high in the offensive zone, you are clearly looking for what you want to see. In reality, he plays high and Dvo plays the boards because Dvo is stronger and more likely to win the board battles. I don't think it takes a genius to realize that, just someone objective. He plays like a winger, but can't do some of the things required by a winger. He shouldn't, either. There's not reason to make him go into board battles he will likely lose when Dvo is more capable of going in there an winning the battle. That lets Marner play high and do what he does best.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

He most definitely was a disappointment in the tournament, but that doesn't really change anything about him as a prospect or how he projects.

People keep rattling off about how he was "one of the top players on Canada", but I don't really care how he compares to Quenneville, Point, etc. If that is the bar for Marner's play, why was he possibly drafted 4th overall? I was expecting him and Strome to be top guys in the tournament, to compare in play and production with the top players from the USA, Sweden, Finland, and Russia. They neither played as well as those players, nor produced offense on the same level.

I think Strome got less criticism because he was fairly consistent through most of the tournament, while Marner would peak much better in a game, but his low was so much worse. It was frustrating to watch at times to see a player you knew could be doing so much better because you see it in the same game, just not perform up to standards.

Marner was certainly not lights out in the tournament, his play was passable mostly due to his abilities on the PP. Which were very good. In this tournament it was an asset.

But I expected more consistency, and better play 5 on 5. If he was not picked 4th overall and if his fans did not hype him so much. I think people would be happy with what he did this tourney. But due to the high praise he often receives, he was outshone by others this tourney. To be fair. He was good, not great.

What I think the tournament has highlighted is how his game will translate to the NHL. There are parts of his game that will need to improve. I think the biggest question is when will he put on some weight, which will translate to not getting pushed off the puck at the NHL level. The next 2 years are big for him for putting on some size.

 

[Cotton]

Certainly not tops. I think top 5 is a fair assessment. He did have only 2(?) 5on5 points, correct? Hardly the most dominating player. Unless the expectations are for him to be a PP specialist.

Dominating as compared to whom? It's already been established that none of our top guys played up to their potential, for various reasons, dominating as in the only one doing anything in a must win is apt. Strome looked dangerous at times and disappeared others, Barzal had a terrible tourney and only really showed up one game - turnovers galore. Marner was about as consistent as Strome except he didn't disappear, and when it was a must win game he was the only one who showed up. Fair is recognizing what was and what wasn't and calling it as such, but I'm pretty sure you weren't even able to watch the games because I seem to recall a thread you posted in discussing how your networks didn't show Canada games.

 

[BigWilly]

This thread reminds me so much of Rielly's WJC performance

Let the haters hate, the Leafs are pumping out studs.

 

[Aceboogie]

Best player on a horrible Canadian team. He's will behind other past top prospects at same tourney. Don't get the hype at all

 

[LV*]

This thread reminds me so much of Rielly's WJC performance

Let the haters hate, the Leafs are pumping out studs.

Oh you mean when Rielly was Canada's best Dman but Spott kept using Ryan Murphy?

Best player on a horrible Canadian team. He's will behind other past top prospects at same tourney. Don't get the hype at all

Lol buddy educate yourself before you make your posts, check the past performances of a #4 overall pick. Marner falls right in line with the rest of them.

 

[The Assclown]

Lol buddy educate yourself before you make your posts, check the past performances of a #4 overall pick. Marner falls right in line with the rest of them.

That's asking a lot of people. It's more difficult to think critically.

 

[Blender]

This thread reminds me so much of Rielly's WJC performance

Let the haters hate, the Leafs are pumping out studs.

"If you criticize Marner in any way, you must be a Leafs hater". Amazing that someone posts this on almost every page as if it has any validity or contributes anything to the discussion.

Lol buddy educate yourself before you make your posts, check the past performances of a #4 overall pick. Marner falls right in line with the rest of them.

A direct comparison to only #4 overall picks doesn't really say much though, as that would imply that all #4 overall picks are equal. Different drafts have wildly different levels of talent at different draft positions. A better comparison is with the performance of all U19 players, that way you stick to comparing the performance of players at the same age and don't have to try and factor in differences in draft position from draft to draft.

 

[stewpac]

As for why he plays high in the offensive zone, you are clearly looking for what you want to see. In reality, he plays high and Dvo plays the boards because Dvo is stronger and more likely to win the board battles. I don't think it takes a genius to realize that, just someone objective. He plays like a winger, but can't do some of the things required by a winger. He shouldn't, either. There's not reason to make him go into board battles he will likely lose when Dvo is more capable of going in there an winning the battle. That lets Marner play high and do what he does best.

What you're saying does make sense and is very rational, however in the defensive zone it is the opposite. Dovark plays high while Marner plays low and retrieves pucks, one of he's best strengths is his ability to get pucks out of the defensive zone and transition quickly. I think Marner and point struggled with positioning because of the dynamic way him and Dovark play. There's no doubt Marner has a ton of area's he needs to improve on but so far in his development I'm extremely happy.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

This thread reminds me so much of Rielly's WJC performance

Let the haters hate, the Leafs are pumping out studs.

Most here are commenting on Marner as a hockey prospect, in particular based on his recent WJC where he was a Team Canada player. I do not see how this constant bringing up that he is a Leafs prospect and he is only criticized because of this as being valid in the discussion of any prospect. There is no validity for your statement.

Most here including myself, have said he was okay to good at the WJC. Was he great this tourney? Not when you see others that played were more prominent at the Worlds. Thus, I just do not understand where the 'hate' comment comes from? I think the criticisms and praise are spot on for Marner.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

"If you criticize Marner in any way, you must be a Leafs hater". Amazing that someone posts this on almost every page as if it has any validity or contributes anything to the discussion.



A direct comparison to only #4 overall picks doesn't really say much though, as that would imply that all #4 overall picks are equal. Different drafts have wildly different levels of talent at different draft positions. A better comparison is with the performance of all U19 players, that way you stick to comparing the performance of players at the same age and don't have to try and factor in differences in draft position from draft to draft.

The 4th pick comment is a bit of a deception. How many drafts can boast a generational like Mcdavid or Eichel going 1-2. Take them out, and Marner would have been the #2 pick last year. I think it would be more accurate to term Marner's pick position as a high top 5 pick rather than just comparing him to other #4 picks. If one wants to make an assertion his progress is on path as other top 4 picks.

In this situation, I would rather look at players compared to others in their draft class, and base my analysis to where they were picked. But based on what we observed in this WJC, I would say Crouse, Barzal, Konecny are a lot closer to Marner than draft position would indicate if we are speaking about comparable performances.

 

[stewpac]

Most here are commenting on Marner as a hockey prospect, in particular based on his recent WJC where he was a Team Canada player. I do not see how this constant bringing up that he is a Leafs prospect and he is only criticized because of this as being valid in the discussion of any prospect. There is no validity for your statement.

Most here including myself, have said he was okay to good at the WJC. Was he great this tourney? Not when you see others that played were more prominent at the Worlds. Thus, I just do not understand where the 'hate' comment comes from? I think the criticisms and praise are spot on for Marner.

There were definitely a lot of "hate" comments around the world junior forms so I'm a bit surprised that you would try do deny that.

I think the entire team played very poor and not one player lived up to expectations, Marner included. I live in London so I'm fortunate to watch him on a weekly basis. As I said above I'm extremely happy with his development curve.

Things I like to see him work on - intensity, simplify when necessary (not at the cost of his creativity) and strength all things that come with maturity and age. Otherwise what a prospect, super excited as a leaf fan.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

There were definitely a lot of "hate" comments around the world junior forms so I'm a bit surprised that you would try do deny that.

I think the entire team played very poor and not one player lived up to expectations, Marner included. I live in London so I'm fortunate to watch him on a weekly basis. As I said above I'm extremely happy with his development curve.

Things I like to see him work on - intensity, simplify when necessary (not at the cost of his creativity) and strength all things that come with maturity and age. Otherwise what a prospect, super excited as a leaf fan.

There was certainly criticism of all of our players in this particular WJC's, justified based on our result. It was not exclusive to one player. Some players got more flak, because of ice time, and they are generally regarded to be the best players on the team. But this is not because they are from a particular team. I wish we could praise and critique a player without the 'hate' card being thrown around by some here, it is a reply that is far too often used here.

Based on your reply I agree for the most. Marner had some good this tourney, for instance his play on the PP was very good this tourney as it is on London. The things you mention he needs to work on I agree on too. Being more simple when he makes the pros. That's one I mentioned in the WJC threads. When he was more simple, he was more effective. And the one thing you didn't mention, that is out of his control is he needs to add strength. Can he grow from 18-19? Sure he can. Right now he has not hit his growth spurt. But I think we can agree this is an area he really needs to show some progress in. It is one thing to be pushed off the puck by juniors, it is another thing to be pushed off the puck by NHL'ers.

He has the skill to be an offensive player, there will be no disagreement by anyone here. But when you pick a player 4th overall in a draft with 2 generational talents. I think most want more than a points producing winger. Can Marner be more than this? I think he can. We will see, but certain things have to happen for him to get there. Which may mean a longer timeframe rather than shorter for Mitch.