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C Kirby Dach (2019, 3rd, CHI)

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I really can't believe anyone is the least bit disappointed in Dach's progression this year. So far he has far outpaced the two players (Byram and Turcotte) that many felt should have gone third. Kudos to Chicago for a solid (if not overly popular) pick!
 
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tomd said:
I really can't believe anyone is the least bit disappointed in Dach's progression this year. So far he has far outpaced the two players (Byram and Turcotte) that many felt should have gone third. Kudos to Chicago for a solid (if not overly popular) pick!
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How has he far outpaced these players and how are you measuring this?

I don’t think either of the other two have had good seasons, but I wouldn’t say a production argument is the one to make for Dach over anyone this season.
 
Pavel Buchnevich said:
How has he far outpaced these players and how are you measuring this?

I don’t think either of the other two have had good seasons, but I wouldn’t say a production argument is the one to make for Dach over anyone this season.
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That's crazy...Dach is producing in the NHL as an 18 year-old and the other two (Byram and Turcotte) are looking like they are nowhere close to the NHL at this point. That may change in the next 5 years but it's not even a close argument today. I don't see how anyone can argue otherwise. And I'm not a Blackhawks fan.
 
izlez said:
*after failing to protect himself after he delivered a dirty headshot on a top prospect


That being said, I had Dach as the clear #3 in the draft last year and he has only reinforced that view. Love his game
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He was concussed after being boarded by a Wild prospect. Didnt headshot or provoke anyone.
 
tomd said:
That's crazy...Dach is producing in the NHL as an 18 year-old and the other two (Byram and Turcotte) are looking like they are nowhere close to the NHL at this point. That may change in the next 5 years but it's not even a close argument today. I don't see how anyone can argue otherwise. And I'm not a Blackhawks fan.
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I don't care who you are a fan of, if your opinion doesn't make sense.

What does producing in the NHL as an 18 year old mean? You are making assertions but giving little description to what you mean and how you are arriving at these assertions. You are trying to make a production-based argument for Dach over all these players by using the words pacing. I'm asking you to explain what exactly that means. There are two other 18 year olds in the NHL, and they are both out-pacing them by the way I look at the word, although I wouldn't say they are having good seasons. The other two in the top five are in different leagues. I don't think those two are having good seasons either, but I don't know how you've decided he's outpacing those players either. Does taking up a roster spot in the NHL mean he's outpacing them?

I'm asking you to explain what you mean. You've not done that.
 
Pavel Buchnevich said:
I'm not sure where you are getting this from. The guy is averaging under 30 points per 82 games. Thats really bad. If Hughes and Kakko weren't playing similarly really bad, it would be getting a lot more attention than it is.

And thats not to say that it's a crazy take to think that Dach is the best player from the draft now and in the future. This whole draft class at the top has been disappointing. Yes, there's that word again. They have been, and I think those who claim otherwise are in denial about all of these players. There's nothing from any of them to say anyone has this season taken a lead. They've all been underwhelming. If you thought Dach had the lead beforehand, I don't see much wrong with that. All of the top players were much closer in ability level than people wanted to admit, but to start boasting when Dach hits a hot streak in a bad season that he's looking like the best is either coincidental timing or completely ignoring almost the entire season of results from Dach.
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I'm getting it from the eye test. Do I wish he had produced more? Sure I do, but his lack of production isn't coming from a lack of talent and it's plain to see. Hawks fans who have watched him way more than me this season can attest to that. In fact I am very encouraged that he's doing as well in the NHL as he is. I thought he'd need at least 1 full season in juniors before he'd make an impact in the NHL, which I guess in a sense is true because he isn't producing that much, but when you see him play it's way beyond what I would've expected from him this early in his career. The points will come, I am absolutely certain of it.

Kakko and Hughes on the other hand look way worse with the eye test. I expected a lot more from Kakko this season, considering his pro experience and that he already has the size to compete in the NHL. Hughes was kind of expected that he'd have a rough transition going straight from juniors (skipping college) to the NHL with his build, but of course even with that said he has still been very disappointing. Dach has clearly been the best of the three in my view and both the stats and eye test back it up.

I didn't post about him now due to some hot streak, I posted because of the plays he's making on pretty much a nightly basis that makes him look like a veteran in the NHL. It's very impressive and he's further along in his development than I expected, and I say this as someone who obviously was a huge fan of him last year and expected great things of him.
 
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I just don’t think you can get a sense of Dachs game and readiness based on his point totals. Over the last week or so he has shown not times where he belongs, times where he is taking over.
 
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Pavel Buchnevich said:
Who are the five best players in the game? McDavid, MacKinnon for sure, and then some combination of Crosby, Malkin, Eichel, Matthews, Draisaitl, Ovechkin.

How many of those guys are more than slightly above average defensively? Probably only Crosby.
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I see what you mean but this is little short sided, Pavel.

Goals, points are sexy. Defensive awareness is hard to determine. People will appreciate it but these 200 ft players will never be seen as the best players, never. Unless you are Fedorov in his best days.

As a big Matthews, MacKinnon, Draisaitl fan, I would not take any of them over lets say Bergeron but the papers, media and statswatchers will.

With Crosby, Malkin, McDavid and Ovechkin you talk about a very special breed. Those shouldnt be the rule.
 
Zaddy said:
I'm getting it from the eye test. Do I wish he had produced more? Sure I do, but his lack of production isn't coming from a lack of talent and it's plain to see. Hawks fans who have watched him way more than me this season can attest to that. In fact I am very encouraged that he's doing as well in the NHL as he is. I thought he'd need at least 1 full season in juniors before he'd make an impact in the NHL, which I guess in a sense is true because he isn't producing that much, but when you see him play it's way beyond what I would've expected from him this early in his career. The points will come, I am absolutely certain of it.

Kakko and Hughes on the other hand look way worse with the eye test. I expected a lot more from Kakko this season, considering his pro experience and that he already has the size to compete in the NHL. Hughes was kind of expected that he'd have a rough transition going straight from juniors (skipping college) to the NHL with his build, but of course even with that said he has still been very disappointing. Dach has clearly been the best of the three in my view and both the stats and eye test back it up.

I didn't post about him now due to some hot streak, I posted because of the plays he's making on pretty much a nightly basis that makes him look like a veteran in the NHL. It's very impressive and he's further along in his development than I expected, and I say this as someone who obviously was a huge fan of him last year and expected great things of him.
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I look at it differently. I think all these players picked in the top spots every draft are clearly very talented, but then the draft happens, these players advance to better leagues, and we see whose that top level talent that can step right into any league they play in and be an impact player immediately, and who might need additional time to develop. The 2019 draft has seen all the top players struggle to become impact players immediately in the NHL. In some drafts, there are 3-4 players who are impact players in the NHL in their D+1 season. So I don't think being better than Hughes or Kakko is necessarily such a good thing.

I also think looking at it in the sense where Dach has impressed, despite the lack of production, but Hughes and Kakko haven't, comes from the wrong type of perspective. I think you have to assess, first and foremost, if they can produce like impact players right away. If they can't, their seasons can't be anything other than a disappointment. The reason why is that there are a lot of players who are able to be impact players right away. Being the best of a bad group doesn't mean Dach's done better than expected. I think they can all not impress, and there doesn't need to be a reason to compliment Dach and criticize the other two. I'd criticize all three. I also think all three will be good NHL players, and I'm not suggesting that all three haven't shown some good things, but I think when you are picked where you are, the expectation is an immediate impact player.

And I think those saying they weren't expecting that are lying to themselves. Why was this thread bumped? It was bumped because Dach's on a five game point streak. It wasn't bumped because he looks like he's playing well or his two-way play has been good recently. It was bumped for the very reason that supposedly you aren't allowed to question Dach, and also Hughes and Kakko, about. Maybe you aren't part of that, but I find it disingenuous on the part of some to passive-aggressively try to mock my opinion, and only feel like you have any leverage to do so now because the player has done better in a category that these same people were refusing to say mattered. But now since the player is doing better recently in this category, it matters. We all know it mattered to these people beforehand but they didn't think it helped in defending the player to say so.

If for some reason you are one of the few people that is not judging the player on this measure, I can respect that. I know you've long been a fan of Dach, and I have, as well. I've long been one of the few people on here who defends the guy. However, I will not create a double-standard for Dach that doesn't apply for everyone else in this draft. I think if you are a top three pick, you need to produce points immediately. The rest of the considerations surrounding the play are secondary to a pretty important surface-level determination about whether a top-pick can impact the league immediately. That comes by scoring points. You either can or you can't. Dach can't, Kakko can't, Hughes can't. I think all will eventually, but right now they can't, and I think in light of recent top picks ability to do so, it should be looked at as a disappointment that these players can't.
 
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Pavel Buchnevich said:
I look at it differently. I think all these players picked in the top spots every draft are clearly very talented, but then the draft happens, these players advance to better leagues, and we see whose that top level talent that can step right into any league they play in and be an impact player immediately, and who might need additional time to develop. The 2019 draft has seen all the top players struggle to become impact players immediately in the NHL. In some drafts, there are 3-4 players who are impact players in the NHL in their D+1 season. So I don't think being better than Hughes or Kakko is necessarily such a good thing.

I also think looking at it in the sense where Dach has impressed, despite the lack of production, but Hughes and Kakko haven't, comes from the wrong type of perspective. I think you have to assess, first and foremost, if they can produce like impact players right away. If they can't, their seasons can't be anything other than a disappointment. The reason why is that there are a lot of players who are able to be impact players right away. Being the best of a bad group doesn't mean Dach's done better than expected. I think they can all not impress, and there doesn't need to be a reason to compliment Dach and criticize the other two. I'd criticize all three. I also think all three will be good NHL players, and I'm not suggesting that all three haven't shown some good things, but I think when you are picked where you are, the expectation is an immediate impact player.

And I think those saying they weren't expecting that are lying to themselves. Why was this thread bumped? It was bumped because Dach's on a five game point streak. It wasn't bumped because he looks like he's playing well or his two-way play has been good recently. It was bumped for the very reason that supposedly you aren't allowed to question Dach, and also Hughes and Kakko, about. Maybe you aren't part of that, but I find it disingenuous on the part of some to passive-aggressively try to mock my opinion, and only feel like you have any leverage to do so now because the player has done better in a category that these same people were refusing to say mattered. But now since the player is doing better recently in this category, it matters. We all know it mattered to these people beforehand but they didn't think it helped in defending the player to say so.

If for some reason you are one of the few people that is not judging the player on this measure, I can respect that. I know you've long been a fan of Dach, and I have, as well. I've long been one of the few people on here who defends the guy. However, I will not create a double-standard for Dach that doesn't apply for everyone else in this draft. I think if you are a top three pick, you need to produce points immediately. The rest of the considerations surrounding the play are secondary to a pretty important surface-level determination about whether a top-pick can impact the league immediately. That comes by scoring points. You either can or you can't. Dach can't, Kakko can't, Hughes can't. I think all will eventually, but right now they can't, and I think in light of recent top picks ability to do so, it should be looked at as a disappointment that these players can't.
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I think your scope on this matter is a bit narrow and you're leaving out a lot of context. Like:
1) Dach was not the consensus 3rd overall pick
2) Dach was seen more as a project who needed to become a more consistent player
3) I don't think many people expected Dach to be in the NHL, whereas Hughes and Kakko was absolutely expected to step in immediately and produce at a decent level (I expected at least something in line with Nico Hischier's rookie season)

Furthermore, you can't just put expectations on a player due to him being picked 3rd overall. Generally it's only the #1 and #2 guys that go straight to the NHL and do somewhat well. And either way, how much you produce in the NHL your post-draft season isn't really indicative of future success. Draisaitl was picked 3rd overall (was a late birthday too, so he was older than Dach) and didn't look like he belonged in the NHL, yet now he has a legitimate case as being a top5, maybe top3 player in the entire league.

Like look at past years of 3rd overall picks. Kotkaniemi played last year and only had 34 points in 79 games. Even Svechnikov at #2 who was very hyped only had 37 points over 82 games. Year before was Heiskanen who stayed in Finland. Year before that was Dubois who went back to juniors and many people thought was a bust because he struggled to produce not in the NHL but in juniors of all places yet he has turned out alright. You can extend this to Puljujärvi who was the consensus 3rd overall pick that year and only had 1 goal and 8 points in 28 games. In 2015 you had Strome who went back to juniors twice, then in his 3rd year was still not able to make the NHL full-time. And 2014 takes us back to Draisaitl.

So I don't know why you are so harsh on Dach. No one expected him to be a full-time NHLer this year. And while the points aren't quite there, he has looked better than expected. And I can only speak for myself but I'm not really engaged in this debate between him, Kakko and Hughes so I'm not hyping up Dach at the expense of the other guys if that makes sense. I had very high hopes for Kakko and I liked him a lot last year too, but fact is he just hasn't been that good. Same goes for Hughes, he was (and is) an elite talent but he has struggled way more than expected. But I don't really care about any of that, I wish them all the best but most of all I'm just happy that Dach is looking good and that's why I'm posting in this thread.
 
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These guys are 18 or 19 now. Chicago is very happy with Dach. Jersey is happy with Hughes and the rangers are happy with kakko.

They will get better.
 
Zaddy said:
I think your scope on this matter is a bit narrow and you're leaving out a lot of context. Like:
1) Dach was not the consensus 3rd overall pick
2) Dach was seen more as a project who needed to become a more consistent player
3) I don't think many people expected Dach to be in the NHL, whereas Hughes and Kakko was absolutely expected to step in immediately and produce at a decent level (I expected at least something in line with Nico Hischier's rookie season)

Furthermore, you can't just put expectations on a player due to him being picked 3rd overall. Generally it's only the #1 and #2 guys that go straight to the NHL and do somewhat well. And either way, how much you produce in the NHL your post-draft season isn't really indicative of future success. Draisaitl was picked 3rd overall (was a late birthday too, so he was older than Dach) and didn't look like he belonged in the NHL, yet now he has a legitimate case as being a top5, maybe top3 player in the entire league.

Like look at past years of 3rd overall picks. Kotkaniemi played last year and only had 34 points in 79 games. Even Svechnikov at #2 who was very hyped only had 37 points over 82 games. Year before was Heiskanen who stayed in Finland. Year before that was Dubois who went back to juniors and many people thought was a bust because he struggled to produce not in the NHL but in juniors of all places yet he has turned out alright. You can extend this to Puljujärvi who was the consensus 3rd overall pick that year and only had 1 goal and 8 points in 28 games. In 2015 you had Strome who went back to juniors twice, then in his 3rd year was still not able to make the NHL full-time. And 2014 takes us back to Draisaitl.

So I don't know why you are so harsh on Dach. No one expected him to be a full-time NHLer this year. And while the points aren't quite there, he has looked better than expected. And I can only speak for myself but I'm not really engaged in this debate between him, Kakko and Hughes so I'm not hyping up Dach at the expense of the other guys if that makes sense. I had very high hopes for Kakko and I liked him a lot last year too, but fact is he just hasn't been that good. Same goes for Hughes, he was (and is) an elite talent but he has struggled way more than expected. But I don't really care about any of that, I wish them all the best but most of all I'm just happy that Dach is looking good and that's why I'm posting in this thread.
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It's impressive that Dach is holding his own with the other 2. I thought he'd be back in Saskatoon. Now, it is a bit more of Hughes/Kakko failing to live up to expectations, but Dach is still showing well. As noted, most people had Byram at 3, and then 4-10 pretty jumbled last year. Hughes/Kakko were viewed as a tier unto themselves. It was pretty well known Dach had arguably the highest upside in the draft, but his shift to shift and even game to game effort could be questioned. Now, its hard to tell between an 18-year-old NHLer having trouble with consistency and just not having consistent night to night efforts.

I'd say he's exceeding expectations on the year. I'm not sure having him in the NHL this year was the optimal developmental strategy, but I can't say with any conviction that it is clearly misguided like I could with some other prospects over the years. Hopefully, for Hawks fans his year two is more like Andrei Svechnikov than Jesperi Kotakniemi. If they want a big step forward next year, they probably have to figure out how to get him some PP1 time and a clear 2nd line role.

Has he clearly surpassed Hughes and Kakko? No. Has he shown enough that he deserves to be discussed alongside them when talking about the 2019 draft? Absolutely.
 
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izlez said:
*after failing to protect himself after he delivered a dirty headshot on a top prospect


That being said, I had Dach as the clear #3 in the draft last year and he has only reinforced that view. Love his game
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What top prospect did the WIld even have? They basically iced a team of tryouts for Travese and shouldnt have even participated at that point
 
SchmaltzLiquor8 said:
What top prospect did the WIld even have? They basically iced a team of tryouts for Travese and shouldnt have even participated at that point
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He delivered a dirty headshot to Seider. I was thinking the Wings got him back, forgot he didn't get hurt until Minnesota
 
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