C Frederik Gauthier (2013, 21st, TOR)

[Whileee]

In regards to the negative responses Frederik Gauthier is getting, what happened to "you can't judge a player based on a tournament"?

It's truly sad that a defensive forward/D-man doesn't get the same kind of love that an offensive forward/D-man get. It's not all about scoring boys and girls. Give me a defensive team that can have a winning season by keeping the scoring low, and I'd be happy just the same.

I don't think it's just about this tournament. Gauthier has stagnated in terms of the development of the skill side of his game since being drafted, instead of showing strong improvement. His skill limitations (with the puck) were flagged when he was drafted, but there was hope that he would improve substantially in those areas. He hasn't.

There is more to defense than being big and getting in the right position, especially for a center in today's NHL. In many NHL systems the center has to play low in the defensive zone and be responsible for initiating an efficient break-out with the puck. A player needs quickness and very good puck skills and vision for that. Gauthier hasn't shown enough of that to be "elite" defensively. Also, part of defense is being a very good possession player, with good zone entries and offensive zone pressure. Gauthier was reasonable on the cycle at the WJHC, but he'll need to be quicker to do that effectively at the NHL level.

My take is that there were concerns about Gauthier before the tournament, and he could have perhaps dispelled a lot of that if he had shown a wider skill repertoire during the WJHC.

 

[WTFMAN99]

I'd say he's on track to be a pretty average 4th line NHL centre...but historically I hated this pick.

 

[hototogisu]

Steckel comparison seems pretty legit to me too. Certainly not a bad player if he's able to carve out a 400+ game career as a defensive specialist but maybe a disappointment for those expecting more from a 21st overall pick.

 

[Ace88*]

Lucic and Hanzal always had more offensive upside than Gauthier has. Both Lucic and Hanzal were both showed they had some hidden offensive skills when they were young. Gauthier has shown nothing other than he can over power 16 year old kids and score garbage goals. He has no hands.



Gauthier really has no more tools than Steckel did, and only had more brains in the defensive end. Gauthier is for the most part nothing more than a big body and can take face-offs as well. I have no problem saying he will be an NHL player but it will be nothing more than a 4th line pk specialist.

if you really think gauthier doesn't have more to work with as a prospect than steckel, well, congratulations you've made it onto my "people whose hockey opinions i disregard completely" list

seriously wtf were you watching in the gold medal game

 

[StuckOutHere]

Future 4th line center in the first round of a deep draft. Great value for the leafs

You can obviously do and hope for better, but a ton of 1st rounders don't even sniff the league.

 

[Quares27]

Anyone who compares him to Steckel has no clue what they're talking about. Simple as that really. They're nothing alike other than being big and good at faceoffs. Gauthier isn't even that good at faceoffs either. Gauthier was drafted because even in his first year in juniors he was an elite defensive player at that level. Steckel never has been a top defensive player and the only reason he was ever put in defensive situations in the NHL is because he was good at faceoffs. Gauthier is already a significantly better skater as well and has plenty of years ahead to improve his skating on top of that. Steckel was easily one of the worst skaters in the NHL. Gauthier is far from one of the worst skaters in juniors despite what people who blindly hate on him based on a 5 game tournament will say.

Now if you're saying Gauthier is Steckel in the sense that they were similar prospects at the same age then I can understand that comparison. But the majority of people here are saying he's Steckel as in he's going to develop into what Steckel was in the NHL, which was much, much worse than Steckel was projected as when he was a prospect.

 

[Stanley Cup]

With his size I like to compare him to Brian Boyle. Can be serviceable. If he knows his role teams will like him a lot. But he has to understand his role.

 

[Burnt Biscuits]

He reminds me of Paul Gaustad, which is definitely a good player to have, but not the kind of guy you'd normally draft in the first round. That said I was higher on both Kyle Chipchura and Ryan O'Marra who were both known for playing a good two way game at the same age, so we'll have to see how he turns out.

 

[Ohashi_Jouzu*]

Now if you're saying Gauthier is Steckel in the sense that they were similar prospects at the same age then I can understand that comparison. But the majority of people here are saying he's Steckel as in he's going to develop into what Steckel was in the NHL, which was much, much worse than Steckel was projected as when he was a prospect.

If/when Gauthier cracks the NHL full time, it is almost certainly going to be as a 4th line/PK/faceoff specialist who, despite being a former 1st round pick, struggles to contribute any offense due to his skating/mobility being worse than 99+% of everyone around him... like Steckel. Sorry for any Leafs fans in the room.

Like Steckel, Gauthier is already(/still) "worse" than he was projected on draft day. Stylistically I don't really see them as that completely similar, but in so much as I've outlined above, they're basically cut from the same cloth. If all goes well, maybe he tops out at Gaustad level instead...

 

[Man Bear Pig]

If/when Gauthier cracks the NHL full time, it is almost certainly going to be as a 4th line/PK/faceoff specialist who, despite being a former 1st round pick, struggles to contribute any offense due to his skating/mobility being worse than 99+% of everyone around him... like Steckel. Sorry for any Leafs fans in the room.

Like Steckel, Gauthier is already(/still) "worse" than he was projected on draft day. Stylistically I don't really see them as that completely similar, but in so much as I've outlined above, they're basically cut from the same cloth. If all goes well, maybe he tops out at Gaustad level instead...

It truly amazes me how people like you can cap a players potential when he's barely old enough to buy a beer.

 

[Jyrki Lumme]

It truly amazes me how people like you can cap a players potential when he's barely old enough to buy a beer.

It's not exactly new for people to unfairly **** on Leafs prospects. Remember when everyone called Nazem Kadri was a bust when he was 21 years old?

 

[smitty10]

I said this before he was drafted...he skates like him, he's the same size, he plays defense like him, he lacks hands and offensive abilities like Steckel.

They're very similar. Gauthier will carve out a 5-10 year NHL career as a checking center probably

Unfortunately, I agree. He is very good at a couple things, but looks bad offensively and when he skates. I hope he can turn this around, but I wouldn't bet the bank on it.

 

[Ohashi_Jouzu*]

It truly amazes me how people like you can cap a players potential when he's barely old enough to buy a beer.

I've been closely following the progress of 17/18/19 year old hockey players for over two decades - i.e. pretty much since I was one myself - and been involved with coaching/player development along the way, too. It doesn't take me years to get a good read on players, though some obviously still surprise (can't see EVERYONE enough to know what were "good days" and what were "bad", or to see them tested in a full range of situations). No matter how good anyone is at anything, limiting skills are just that - the limit, what holds them back. Gauthier is severely limited by his skating, and almost terminally limited by his puck/stick skills. Size and draft pedigree will get him in the door, and effort will earn you an extended look, but something is going to have to drastically change for him to amount to much more.

 

[nbwingsfan]

if you really think gauthier doesn't have more to work with as a prospect than steckel, well, congratulations you've made it onto my "people whose hockey opinions i disregard completely" list

seriously wtf were you watching in the gold medal game

He had a great medal game doing exactly what he was brought to do, play on the pk and win faceoffs. Unless the guy improves his acceleration and agility greatly then he won't be more than a 4th line pk specialist. His first few steps are way too slow to keep up with the NHL's elite, and he has the turning radius of an 18 wheeler. He has great hockey sense in the defensive end which is why he would be a great pk guy as you don't need speed to play on that. He showed very limited offensive skills, just like steckle, and his top end speed is better, but his ability and acceleration are about on par.

He has bad skating even for the Junior level, it will be very noticeable at the NHL level.

It truly amazes me how people like you can cap a players potential when he's barely old enough to buy a beer.

But this is what Gauthier was drafted for, I believe even your own GM at the time called him a 3rd line player. His offensive game has completely stagnated.

 

[sniper81]

He had a great medal game doing exactly what he was brought to do, play on the pk and win faceoffs. Unless the guy improves his acceleration and agility greatly then he won't be more than a 4th line pk specialist. His first few steps are way too slow to keep up with the NHL's elite, and he has the turning radius of an 18 wheeler. He has great hockey sense in the defensive end which is why he would be a great pk guy as you don't need speed to play on that. He showed very limited offensive skills, just like steckle, and his top end speed is better, but his ability and acceleration are about on par.

He has bad skating even for the Junior level, it will be very noticeable at the NHL level.



But this is what Gauthier was drafted for, I believe even your own GM at the time called him a 3rd line player. His offensive game has completely stagnated.

With Gauthier there will always be the chance he figures it out offensively when he's 25-26. I agree with his turning and edge work but disagree with his skating, I feel it will be a strength for him in 3-4 years time. Another aspect he has going forward for him is his puck protection. As he continues to get stronger on the puck, it will be his bread and butter in the NHL. I feel that he will be a very important piece going forward as the Leafs need him to actually win games, exactly like he did in the tournament. I also feel for that reason alone that he was worth the gamble for the Leafs even though he isn't exactly a "sexy" type of player.

 

[nbwingsfan]

With Gauthier there will always be the chance he figures it out offensively when he's 25-26. I agree with his turning and edge work but disagree with his skating, I feel it will be a strength for him in 3-4 years time. Another aspect he has going forward for him is his puck protection. As he continues to get stronger on the puck, it will be his bread and butter in the NHL. I feel that he will be a very important piece going forward as the Leafs need him to actually win games, exactly like he did in the tournament. I also feel for that reason alone that he was worth the gamble for the Leafs even though he isn't exactly a "sexy" type of player.

You can say that about every single person who has ever played hockey though, but at this point, there is absolutely no evidence to support that Gauthier will have any kind of offensive success at the NHL level as he handles the puck like a grenade. You can disagree with his skating as much as you'd like but the only aspect of his skating that is even average is his full speed. The problem is that by the time he gets up to speed he's already behind the play, and then if it goes the other direction he's even further behind because his edge work is very bad at this point. Can he improve on this? Absolutely. But in his 3 years in the Q it has certainly not improved as he is still below average even by Q standards.

I agree with the rest of your post as I believe he will have an NHL career due to his defensive IQ and size, but that's not the type of player you waste a 21st overall pick on. 4th line grinders are possibly the easiest players in the NHL to find.

 

[sniper81]

You can say that about every single person who has ever played hockey though, but at this point, there is absolutely no evidence to support that Gauthier will have any kind of offensive success at the NHL level as he handles the puck like a grenade. You can disagree with his skating as much as you'd like but the only aspect of his skating that is even average is his full speed. The problem is that by the time he gets up to speed he's already behind the play, and then if it goes the other direction he's even further behind because his edge work is very bad at this point. Can he improve on this? Absolutely. But in his 3 years in the Q it has certainly not improved as he is still below average even by Q standards.

I agree with the rest of your post as I believe he will have an NHL career due to his defensive IQ and size, but that's not the type of player you waste a 21st overall pick on. 4th line grinders are possibly the easiest players in the NHL to find.

Development isn't linear, he's a very different case being 6-5 and not fully committing to Hockey until a lot later than most. I feel confident that he will be a very valuable third line centre just on the fact that he has so much time to work on his game and figure out how to use his body. It was worth the gamble for the Leafs because there issue isn't scoring. Its actually playing Hockey 2 ways and having the lack of centres that can really impact a game in multiple aspects. The selecting made sense at the time because he came off a pretty big IIHF and showed his value of what he can bring to a team. I think having A Kadri, Nylander, Gauthier up the middle looks promising going forward. It was also the Leafs biggest glaring need so hopefully it works out. I understand you not seeing his upside, I just see it differently, Cheers.

 

[Man Bear Pig]

I've been closely following the progress of 17/18/19 year old hockey players for over two decades - i.e. pretty much since I was one myself - and been involved with coaching/player development along the way, too. It doesn't take me years to get a good read on players, though some obviously still surprise (can't see EVERYONE enough to know what were "good days" and what were "bad", or to see them tested in a full range of situations). No matter how good anyone is at anything, limiting skills are just that - the limit, what holds them back. Gauthier is severely limited by his skating, and almost terminally limited by his puck/stick skills. Size and draft pedigree will get him in the door, and effort will earn you an extended look, but something is going to have to drastically change for him to amount to much more.

Don't get me wrong, and I completely respect your opinion, I just think it's silly to write-off a player at his age. He could turn into nothing and it wouldn't bother me one way or another, I just don't understand how people here talk like they have a crystal ball and say he's a 20 point, 4th line center. I mean, aren't we the same people who preach patience, especially for kids his size?

 

[Man Bear Pig]

But this is what Gauthier was drafted for, I believe even your own GM at the time called him a 3rd line player. His offensive game has completely stagnated.

Dave Nonis also signed David Clarkson to that ridiculous deal and went all out to get Bolland and tried to sign the guy long-term and pay him like a second line center. I have little faith in Nonis and question everything he says and does.

 

[5 14 6 1]

Wasn't really impressed by Gauthier at the WJC other then his faceoffs, he looked semi-effective with Ritchie and Crouse but nothing about his game really stood out to me.

 

[7even]

How long until people realize he's not a bad skater? It's getting old.

 

[Hope Bringer]

With his size I like to compare him to Brian Boyle. Can be serviceable. If he knows his role teams will like him a lot. But he has to understand his role.

I thought of Boyle as well, though Boyle had some respectable offensive numbers in College Hockey, and scored 20 goals in the NHL.

Don't know if Gauthier will ever get close to 20, but other than that, I could see him carving out a Boyle-like career.

 

[dubey]

Hence the disappointment. We used a #21 overall pick on Jay McClement 2.0.

Should have used it on Crosby 2.0 tbh

 

[bottomofthefoodchain]

He had a great medal game doing exactly what he was brought to do, play on the pk and win faceoffs. Unless the guy improves his acceleration and agility greatly then he won't be more than a 4th line pk specialist. His first few steps are way too slow to keep up with the NHL's elite, and he has the turning radius of an 18 wheeler. He has great hockey sense in the defensive end which is why he would be a great pk guy as you don't need speed to play on that. He showed very limited offensive skills, just like steckle, and his top end speed is better, but his ability and acceleration are about on par.

He has bad skating even for the Junior level, it will be very noticeable at the NHL level.



But this is what Gauthier was drafted for, I believe even your own GM at the time called him a 3rd line player. His offensive game has completely stagnated.

Getting a 3rd liner with the 21st pick is not bad

 

[199991]

Wasn't really impressed by Gauthier at the WJC other then his faceoffs, he looked semi-effective with Ritchie and Crouse but nothing about his game really stood out to me.

So you probably didn't watch the Gold Medal Game