This has been going on well before Babs. Blashill follows the Detroit system that has been in place for 25 years. They very rarely will give a young player prime playing opportunities without keeping him in the AHL for a while to grow. Larkin was just that good.
C Dylan Larkin (2014, 15th, DET)
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This has been going on well before Babs. Blashill follows the Detroit system that has been in place for 25 years. They very rarely will give a young player prime playing opportunities without keeping him in the AHL for a while to grow. Larkin was just that good.
Heraldic
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I don't know how many times it has to be said - it's not about points here. It's about the offensive abilities. Larkin doesn't have the ability to control the pace of the game nor is he a great playmaker. He doesn't rely on his positioning as much as he relys on his skating.
Yes, he outproduced Eichel while having a lot lesser matchups and while Eichel had a bad tournament. So? Eichel outperformed Larkin in every way on WC (and yes, Eichel had also tough matchups. He faced Malkin and Plekanec and was the better against both of them, for example. He also faced Barkov, but I don't really remember how it went. He also played PK). But I doubt this is about Larkin vs. Eichel.
It's not about that does he has offensive skill, it's about is that offensive skill anywhere near where you can call a player franchise-caliber. That's basically the difference between Eichel and Larkin. Eichel is the kind of player who can generate offense all by himself - he doesn't really need other players to generate possession etc. Larkin is a lot more dependent on his linemates offensively. I really can't understand where the comparisons between Larkin and Toews comes from. Other is a playmaking center who relies on positioning and dissecting/slowing the game down a lot more (sure, Toews also has an aggressive dimension as well), while the other is a pretty pure high motor/engine guy who almost never stop skating.
Having said this, it sure can be that Larkin finds a new dimension in his game at NHL level. That's just not something that usually happens.
It would be proper for me to adjust the former stance and say that "around 60 points". Bergeron just isn't offensively on a same level as those two. I think that Bergeron's contract is a super steal, but there still is a reason, why Toews got four millions more and Kopitar most likely will as well. And the reason is not one cup.
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And what comes to the players I listed. Nichuschkin and Hertl (who, for some reason produced more points than the others) happened to be the only guys who were slotted with the best players in their teams.
Personally I really don't see as impressive to score 40 points as a winger with the best players on my team (that's something that even Justin ****ing Abdelkader can do...) as I see carriyng yourself a line and producing 25 points. What Couturier and Horvat did (for example), was more impressive than what Nuke and Hertl did, despite them having more points and playing in a top-6. That's just my opinion, sure.
newfy
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I'm not going to get into a big argument but anyone that thinks Larkin's offense was more influenced by Hyman on his wing than vice versa is off base. The reason Hyman was a Hobey nominee over Larkin is because the NCAA is notorious for recognizing senior/older players over young ones for their awards. Its been like that for a long time as well.
The development process isnt changing in Detroit because Babcock left, Detroit went along fine without Babcock before and they'll keep doing the same stuff with him gone. Its not like Babcock coached Detroit for 30 years.
As for comparing Larkin to other prospects in this thread. Larkin is a notch above a few guys I've seen thrown around in this thread. I wouldnt put him above guys like Reinhart, Nylander etc yet because theyre all close. However, what hes done since being drafted absolutely puts him on the cusp of elite prospect/franchise type, hes definitely a blue chipper. A lot has to go right to end up an elite player but to date I would like to see anyone come up with a list of what Larkin has accomplished with another player that didnt become a first liner in the NHL. Its hard to do and I dont think there is any to be honest. Theres a reason hes the first teenager in 19 years to open the season in Detroit and no, it isnt just because they draft late. Larkin is a great prospect
The development process isnt changing in Detroit because Babcock left, Detroit went along fine without Babcock before and they'll keep doing the same stuff with him gone. Its not like Babcock coached Detroit for 30 years.
As for comparing Larkin to other prospects in this thread. Larkin is a notch above a few guys I've seen thrown around in this thread. I wouldnt put him above guys like Reinhart, Nylander etc yet because theyre all close. However, what hes done since being drafted absolutely puts him on the cusp of elite prospect/franchise type, hes definitely a blue chipper. A lot has to go right to end up an elite player but to date I would like to see anyone come up with a list of what Larkin has accomplished with another player that didnt become a first liner in the NHL. Its hard to do and I dont think there is any to be honest. Theres a reason hes the first teenager in 19 years to open the season in Detroit and no, it isnt just because they draft late. Larkin is a great prospect
Sure... But I don't see how putting up 1 point while playing on the 4th line fits into "I've seen all I need to see... franchise player!"
Anyway... Based on what I've read in this thread and the fact he has not only made the roster, but by the sounds of it will be skating on the top lines with good talent I expect big things from him. Considering the vast majority of forwards who have broken into the league within the last decade who've gone on to become elite franchise type players have produced pretty big numbers almost immediately after grabbing consistent NHL ice time, I don't think, assuming he really is a franchise guy, 55ish-70ish points is a unreasonable expectation.
Heraldic
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Hyman wouldn't have done those points without Larkin and vice versa. There was a poster saying that Hyman's numbers were a product of Larkin and that is BS.
My point was that Larkin needs an offensive minded player on his line to produce offense. You put two defensive-minded players on his line and the line won't produce offense. You put two defensive-minded players around Kopitar or Toews, the line produces offense, because they can produce it themselves.
Sure, Larkin can turn things around on that department, but right now that seems to be the situation.
There have been younger guys also nominated. Yet I don't know the history well enough to really argue here. But I still doubt that Hyman was just riding the shotgun there.
Many players has the potential to be a franchise player. But there are only few under ELC who you can say probably ever being ones. Galchenyuk and MacKinnon started really strongly, but both of them have generated a bit doubt. MacKinnon still has a lot of time, but I don't think it is certain that he will be a complete franchise-player - eventhough everything directed that way recently.
And I really don't think that so many actually believe the narrative that he was taken 15th because professional scouts couldn't see pass Eichel? The fact is that his offensive abilities are not the type of, that you build your line around (offensively). And that always hurts your stocks as a center, if you're supposed to be a top-6-center.
But it will be interesting to see, how he will handle the offensive side of things, if he is to have more responsibility there. Playing with Zeta as a winger isn't really the biggest test in that regard.
Pavels Dog
Registered User
What's this really based on? I can't speak for Larkin's NCAA or pre-draft stats, but from what I've seen from him in the WJC, AHL and now in camp he has no trouble creating offense on his own. And on the flip side, how often have Toews and Kopitar been stuck with two defensive-minded wingers? They've always played with high-end talent.
Larkin's going to have terrific wingers anyway, so not sure it matters. Perfect center for Mantha, Pulkkinen, Jurco, Athanasiou, Nyquist, Tatar etc.
obey86
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Lol, get out of here with that. ~20 points is nearly what good checking line centers put up with crappy offensive linemates and no powerplay time. That's something that even Luke ****ing Glendening or Joakim ****ing Andersson can do...
I mean, garbage player-out of the NHL-worst Red Wings 4th liner in recent history- Corey Emmerton playing EIGHT MINUTES A NIGHT with bad offensive linemates and no powerplay time put up 10 points in 71 games. But i'm supposed to be impressed with Curtis Lazar putting up 15 points with 13 minutes per game...or Girgensens putting up 22 points with over 15 minutes of ice time per game? On a per minute basis they were barely more productive than COREY EMMERTON. You can't be serious. Those are "offensive" guys playing in the NHL before they can legit contribute producing as much as Corey Emmerton did. That's not impressive.
Heraldic
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He sure can create offense with his speed, straigthforward attitude and playing style. And he has a great shot. But he is not creating offense in a more dominant way. The way that the best centers in the league create. At least that's not something I have seen him doing.
Toews and Kopitar have had the luxury of having great linemates. But for example at OG Kopitar was able to produce offense while playing with total scrubs - and against tough teams.
Yes, it might not end up being a serious problem, if you can find suitable linemates for him. But it still doesn't erase the fact represented.
SimplySolace
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I enjoy the fact that Heraldic shares his opinion on every major Wings prospect. Never gonna get old.
obey86
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Heraldic
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Nice strawman.
Nowhere have I said that Larkin sucks - the exact opposite. It's just these silly and ridiculous hyperboles.
Is it so difficult to have at least one prospect and not get ridiculous with the tire pumping? I really can't even remember a Wings-prospect that haven't been tire pumped like a maniac.
Pavels Dog
Registered User
This has to be somehow because you only hear about the prospects we are excited about. Because there's a ton of prospects Wings fans aren't "tire pumping". Even a guy like Riley Sheahan was not talked about much (most saw him as a future 4th liner) before he hit the NHL. I think you are mistaken if you believe Wings fans overhype their prospects more than other fans. Larkin deserves the hype, any fanbase would be extremely excited by him.Is it so difficult to have at least one prospect and not get ridiculous with the tire pumping? I really can't even remember a Wings-prospect that haven't been tire pumped like a maniac.
so what year will he win the vezina, his defensive game is so elite that hell be blocking every shot taken while hes on ice
Come on man. If your gonna troll, at least do a better job of it. You did a much better troll job in the other thread. At least be entertaining.
Nice strawman.
Nowhere have I said that Larkin sucks - the exact opposite. It's just these silly and ridiculous hyperboles.
Is it so difficult to have at least one prospect and not get ridiculous with the tire pumping? I really can't even remember a Wings-prospect that haven't been tire pumped like a maniac.
I could be wrong here, but I'm pretty sure he was saying that your opinions on Wings prospects suck.
drw02
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Because my assessment isn't soley based on his WC performance. No his stats were not great in that tourney. He was still 18 at the time and didn't get any real offensive opportunities. The eyes could still see he had elite potential. The USA coaches gushed over him. He was impressive despite the less than stellar stats.
The Zermanator
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- Jan 21, 2013
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I don't know what people see in this Ovechkin kid. That shot will never make it past an NHL goalie.
obey86
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Laser Rayzor
Cautiously Optimistic
The kid looks legit but some of this hype is getting out of control, some people act like he's guaranteed to be a #1 70pt center and are people actually throwing around the term "franchise center", really?
He's played 6 pro games, only 6. Lets pump the brakes here.
He's played 6 pro games, only 6. Lets pump the brakes here.
This^^^ Its embarrassing reading through some of the comments from fellow wings fans here
Larkin is sort of a weird case, because he had about zero hype after the draft. Even into his first year, Wings fans didn't really know what they had until the WJC. So maybe he's been hyped a lot lately, but Wings fans have only been talking about him like this for about 6 months or so. And even then, it didn't hit this level until training camp and the preseason when he outplayed virtually every veteran on the team, including Zetterberg, and matched up well against Crosby and Malkin head to head.
So I think making Larkin out to be perennially hyped by Wings fans is a little off base. This is new to everyone. Wings fans were as surprised as anybody.
So I think making Larkin out to be perennially hyped by Wings fans is a little off base. This is new to everyone. Wings fans were as surprised as anybody.
Pavels Dog
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Menzinger
Kessel4LadyByng
Putting up 40 points as a rookie 18 year old would put him among some of the most impressive rookie seasons in recent memory.
Ie former Red Wing Great Brendan Shanahan only out up 26.
I think expectations should be tempered a bit.
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