Kind of odd for a country known for their good goaltenders. That's at least what saved us many times in international tournaments...I agree on the less defensive hockey though.
C Auston Matthews - ZSC Lions, NLA (2016 Draft) III
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Kind of odd for a country known for their good goaltenders. That's at least what saved us many times in international tournaments...I agree on the less defensive hockey though.
Please explain bolded parts.
Iirc Barkov was a ready center from day one, as barely 18 years old, playing a big role in Florida. Granlund is a tier or tow lower as a talent than Laine/Barkov/Pulju. Armia shouldn't even be in the discussion.
Finns have a 2-3 year adjustment period? Just because it has been so in the past doesn't mean it's so in the future. Your saying as if it's some kind of Finnish trait that they have "an adjustment period". The players are individuals and their readiness isn't determined by their nationality. You can't downplay the readiness of a Finnish prospect by showing how previous finns weren't ready at a young age. Also bringing Barkov into your "2-3 yr adjustment period" hypothesis doesn't do any favors to your argument.
You clearly do not watch either league so why comment on the difference in level? You were blaming people of homerism in their picks, at the same time basing your pick on ignorance.
"slightly"
And no Matthews would not be PPG in Liiga.
NLA has a few teams that can challenge a team in Liiga or Elitserien on a good day but would never survive a playoff series against them. There are individuals in NLA teams that could successfully play in Liiga or Elitserien and even be stars in the leagues. But the depth of the league and the depth of the teams are not comparable as you seem to think.
You can easily just use the CHL as an indicator of league level difference, or watch how the individuals perform in tournaments against the same competition.
I understand you are high on Matthews and he could go 1st or 2nd, but inaccurate statements and ignorance about different leagues is not going to help it.
I think he could be, but not necessarily. This WILL or WONT BE is kinda silly.
Switzerland has always had some good goalies, but Finland has been producing some of the best goalies in the world for a long time, so it's not surprising if the goaltending level is lower elsewhere.
I agree, it's not knowledge, it's an educated guess based on available data.
I don't think he would be, Pulju and Laine aren't even close to PPG and Matthews has shown nothing over these guys against same level of competition (except that he's a center) so I don't see how he would be twice as effective all of a sudden. Nothing suggests he would or could be.
Filip Riska COULD be a 2 ppg in NLA in the "anything is possible" world. But is it likely?
Fair enough, good point. One of my favorite goalies is Ari "the wall" Sulander, but I might be biased in that respect
Beukeboom
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But before this season Laine and Puljujarvi came from pretty ordinary seasons in the finnish league for talents. Perhaps even underperforming compared to Barkov and others.
Matthews came from setting a new record in the USDP beating a certain Patrick Kane. He also outperformed Jack Eichel with a wide margin. An Eichel that is doing pretty well in NHL this year against men and also had a really good World Cup last year. Coiming in with that Matthews would have been a first line player in any club in Finland. Just as he is the number 1 center in Switzerland's best team. He would not be liuke Laine and Puljujarvi. SO yes it is safe to assume he would be performing at the same level. Not the same ppg but the same ppg in relation to his peers. That is top 5 in scoring in Finland.
Beukeboom
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I should have said european players. Most of them take extra years to adapt. Sedins did, Forsberg came to NHL when he was 20+ and I can go on. So not a specific trait for finnish players, more so big ice ones.
In Matthews you get someone that can perform from day one and it is just a safer bet. He masters small ice, the finns we don't know. Matthews was good last years WJC on small ice, Puljujarvi was not.
Why is it so hard for the finns to grasp that teams don't like unknowns. There are no unknowns with matthews. He has performed vs kids and men. On big and small ice. In NA and in Europe. Every where he has been he has been brilliant, from setting north american scoring records to dominating in the Swiss league against many former NHLrs. You can not honestly say Laine and Puljujarvi have done that? They have one WJC to show for and that is it. They have been underperforming in the finnish league for two seasons even tough they seem to catch up now. They have not proved themselves on small ice. Yes they might be superstars in the future but you draft based on minimizing the ifs, unknowns and would bes..
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Fair enough, good point. One of my favorite goalies is Ari "the wall" Sulander, but I might be biased in that respect
He isn't that known in Finland but he is a legend in Switzerland
Laine and Puljujärvi have been underperforming 2 seasons??? HELLO!!! - They are 17yr olds who play against MEN! I have a hard time believing that most 15 and 16 yr olds could even do that....
He isn't that known in Finland but he is a legend in Switzerland
He's not known in Finland? 1998 olympics bronze medal game against Canada, I think most people remember the former Jokerit goalie
Under performing may have been the wrong word. But they haven't out produced Barkov at the same age in the same league. Matthews outproduced Eichel and Kane at the same age and in the same league. I think most people would take Eichel over Barkov just like most would take Matthews over the 2 fins this year.
Of course I didn't mean that Switzerland doesn't have some very good goaltenders. The quality just is still better in general in FEL and some other European top leagues. The best NLA goalies are probably at least close to the best goalies in FEL. But the difference in the goaltending class is essentially in the amount of these very good goalies each league has. In FEL the difference between the best and the worst goalie is smaller, as all teams have good goalies.
The only thing I can respond to the bolded is lol. Scouts were raving about Puljujärvi after last years WJC, and that was the point where he was put over Matthews in rankings. And if Laine and Puljujärvi are "unknowns" to some NHL teams, well, they haven't done a very good job on the scouting department. Pulju was putting up 0,5 ppg last year already, against men. He started this year slow, I'll give you that. But that is about the only time he has underperformed. Also can't completely ignore the age factor, Matthews does have about 6 months(?) on Puljujärvi and Laine.
Laine of course had his own problems last season, he had gotten past his mental issues, but his knee pretty much ruined his season. It's what got people questioning his skating. Just compare him to now. It's clear that his season was hindered by his skating, even though he still managed to dominate in the U18s.
I agree, it's not knowledge, it's an educated guess based on available data.
I don't think he would be, Pulju and Laine aren't even close to PPG and Matthews has shown nothing over these guys against same level of competition (except that he's a center) so I don't see how he would be twice as effective all of a sudden. Nothing suggests he would or could be.
Filip Riska COULD be a 2 ppg in NLA in the "anything is possible" world. But is it likely?
Well, he is still considered by a vast majority of scouts to be ahead of Laine at the moment, so in that sense he has shown something over those guys. Also you have to remember that the fact that Laine is right now roughly at 0.75ppg doesn't mean it would necessarily be so. On a different team he could be producing at a PPG pace, who knows. Fact is that Matthews would be no. 1 center on most teams, if not all. He would have all the possibilities to be in a productive role.
beukeboom said:
That's even worse. Now, instead of generalizing Finnish players, you're generalizing the whole continent. Sure, you can say so and so took time to adapt. Most players do. In fact, a vast vast majority of players where ever they're from take a lot of adapting to make themselves ready for the nhl. Even if Europeans on aggregate enter the league at older ages, you can't just say "ok this guy is european, therefore it will take him a longer time to adapt". You have to look at the player and assess wether he's a project or not, his maturity level etc.
Btw I'm not arguing against Matthews' maturity level. From what I've gathered he's pretty much NHL ready. But has very little to do with his nationality.
And on another note, many scouts raved about how good Puljujärvi was at last year's WJC, even though it didn't show on the scoreboard. Also there's the point that he was 16 years old, no one expects 16-year-olds to do anything in WJCs, let alone make it to the roster.
Small ice vs. Big ice, I agree that it is a consideration, but if a player is well built for the NA game and has a good IQ, it's not an issue. Why someone like Granlund took such a long time to adapt (and has yet to reach his potential even now) was because he isn't really an ideal player type for the NA game, not because it took him a long time to figure out the small ice. Entering the league he was slow and relatively weak. These two young finns though? Not so much.
Are you talking to me or "the finns"?
Sure, all is fine and well and Matthews is an incredible talent, and fwiw I personally have him going 1st. It seems, however, that you're downplaying both Laine and Puljujärvi without much knowlege of them. Especially Puljujärvi has quite possibly had the most impressive junior career ever as a Finn. He's been producing at a high clip at an unprecedented young age on pretty much every level he's played. The same goes for Laine, he has had a much more impressive junior career than any of the previous top picks Finland has produced. Also he has led two consecutive IIHF championship tournaments in goal scoring, one of which was the u18 WJC last year, the other being the recent u20 WJC where he tied the goalscoring lead with Matthews.
Also you say that they have been underperforming in the finnish league for two years. Do you know how unusual it is to even play there as a 16 year old? Usually it just doesn't happen. If a player plays in Liiga as a 16 year old, it's incredibly impressive even if he plays 20 games with 0+0 scoring.
It's funny that, it seems, that you're right (and share my opinion with this matter), but it looks like you have no idea why you are right, and many of your arguments make no sense whatsoever.
Beukeboom
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When I say there are unkown factors that doesn't mean the team's scouting departments haven't done their job. Look at all the top 10 pics and even top 5 and you realize there are very few givens even in terms of #1s. If it was that easy to be a scout or pic the top pics then we wouldn't find guys like Zetterberg far down in the what, 7th round?
European players are unkowns in a sense that they aren't used to big ice hockey and they aren't used to the increased speed and physical play. If you look at European top prospects they on average take longer to reach their potential in NHL and the ones that deliver from day one often start later. Forsberg, Ovechkin, I can go on forever.
Laine and Puljujarvi imo have two things against them in their won league that I called "underperforming" which in hindsight might have been a bad word. 1. They produce less than other prospects such as Barkov and Granlund. Inevitably they will be compared. 2. They have, at least before WJC, not increased their production from the last season. That was for instance the start of Tavares demise from generational to regular top prospect in the scouting reports. He didn't progress.
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Beukeboom
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Well I am glad we reach the same conclusion but I am not sure why you aren't agreeing to my statements..
Since I am to slow to figure out how to quote two post in one I'll resort to ask you to read my post above too. I did address the "unknown" factor european players have.
So anyway using the word underperforming was dumb. But it was in relation to Matthews and other finnish top prospects. Of course these two will get compared to Barkov and Granlund. You look at past players and compare for instance the ppg transition from the finnish league to NHL. What I meant by underperforming is that, as I wrote above, Barkov and Granlund had a higher ppg before coming over and that wasn't a guarantee for success.
Why can't I say on average european players take longer to adapt? It is true? Name a few that came in to NHL their draft year and performed like Eichel, Ekblad and Mckinnon did? I left out Crosby and Mcdavid on purpose since they are out of the ordinary. The reason behind this is as I said above. Different ice size, speed, physical play. Also a move across the Atlantic to another continent and country with a different language can be tough in itself. And to this extra stuff you add all the pressure and differences that a North American player would face transitioning to NHL and I can't really see why you have a hard time accepting that?
As I said 10 times in this thread, Matthews is a safer bet. He has performed everywhere. And not only performed but setting records and doing what no one has ever done before. He set a record in the USDP, better than Kane and a lot better than Eichel. No other 18year old has had a 1.29 ppg in the Swiss league and especially not while adapting to big ice hockey. The finns haven't done anything that hasn't been done before by other finns, hence I draw the conclusion that Matthews is a safer bet. You take the guys that has performed better and done things that no one has done before..
Of course Laine can turn out better but you go by the stats you got not by a strange gut feeling.
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So Aho has 26 pts in 32 games in the low scoring FEL and some people here think Matthews would struggle, laughable.
kelsier
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The way Laine's been flaming in FEL post WJC, Matthews will have to work his butt off to keep that #1 or start praying that a team winning lottery is desperate for the first line center. Thought there was a chance for Laine to go first after WJC but now it's really starting to look like a competition. Wonder how long it will take for others, apart from McKeen to come out of the closet.
Beukeboom
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Well Matthews has 12pts in 7 games after WJC. So maybe that is good enough? Set up the game winner today.
Aho is year older, and doesnt have to get used in bigger rink.
Honestly, i dont see Matthews producing at the same level, as Aho.
And "IF" Matthews would have came in Kärpät, he wouldnt have gotten 1st line place instantly. Im not basing this on his skill level, it's just that Marjamäki, likes players to earn their places..
lawrence
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good counter response.
I doubt kelsier doesn't even have a damn clue how well Mathews has been playing.
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Aho was clearly a better player than Matthews in the WJC. And he is in fact a very, very good player. Totally underestimated by most of the North Americans. I have to say, that although I myself am half American, I very much dislike it when North Americans so often think that just because a player happens to be an American, he is right away better than a great European player.
What I have also noticed is that there's a lot of cherry picking with many North Americans (not all!). If their players have a fabulous WJC, then of course they are the best players and prospects right away based on the performance in WJC. But if Europeans happen to win WJC and totally outclass the North American players there, suddenly WJC performance is practically meaningless and the only thing that means anything, is after all the comparison where the North Americans get the most favorable result.
I'm not saying that Matthews isn't a great talent. But I definitely don't see him as a bigger talent than Puljujärvi and especially not bigger talent than Laine, or even Aho.
Remember that last time NHL stars played in FEL, only Erik Karlsson managed to dominate with his playing and scoring. And even he scored only with about the same pace that he has had this season in the NHL. This should also tell everyone that FEL is really a HARD league to score in. And I claim that last two seasons it has become even much more defensive. To that extent that it started to become boring. Thank God we have now so many young super talents in FEL, which at least raises the interest towards the league again.
Just please, some North Americans, have a bit less of homerism and a bit more of the taste of some humble pie. The WJC and so many other big international tournaments should have already taught that.
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