C Adam Fantilli - (2023, 3rd, CBJ) Part 2

[Guadana]

And Logan Cooley was apparently never going to play for Arizona and Keller wanted a trade from Arizona. Players change their minds.

Your team was literally saying he wasn’t in play. Why would he meet with a team that was quite clear they didn’t want him?

You only claim it’s a nothing burger because you’ve now convinced yourself about Fantilli. If Michkov becomes one of the best players in the league and Fantilli is Dylan Larkin (hypothetically), of course it wasn’t a nothing burger. This applies for every team that passed on him. They can try to convince themselves it was the right decision to pass on one of the best draft prospects of recent memory, but there’s no reason why we shouldn’t be comparing the players they picked to the one they passed on.

Cmon, PB, I like Michkov more too. But its okay to take 90points center with skating, shot and physicality over "Kucherov" even if Kucherov is a better player in vacuum. Clb sucked asses and have no real center to build the team around. Fantilli driving play well already, clb still not a great team, pretty young and unbalanced, even if Michkov is freaking huge in KHL, Fantilli is doing well in NHL, he looks better than Slaf year ago, he is looking way better than Lafreniere. It will take time for him for adaptation, and even when Michkov will finally join flyers and will play on a better level in his first or econd year, it still okay for cbj to having Fantilli. He is better than what they could get in the next draft. They would stay without center. They need him hard and Fantilli is good.

 

[ScarTroy]

I’ll chime in because like CBJ, my team is going to have the same questions following them, and even more so since we passed not only Michkov, but also the consensus #2 in Fantilli.

But, when you are given the chance to draft your future all situation 1C you do it. The drop off of possible upside between Fantilli and Michkov isn’t enough to keep that hole in your lineup (1C) unfilled.

No one knows how Michkov will translate to the NHL game. How will he fit into NHL systems, will he be hampered by communication problems? At the draft he still needed a translator. He also has many questions marks ahead of him.

There’s one thing that anyone can see about Fantilli though, is that when it comes playoff time he’s the type of guy to run through a brick wall to help the team. That wins championships. Philly I’m sure will love Michkov, and that’s steal where they got him, but CBJ went for who they see giving them the best chance at a cup, simple as that.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

1. I listen to Friedman’s podcast. I don’t ever recall him saying Cooley wasn’t signing or Keller asked for a trade. I remember him saying he heard it, but never reported it. And the Coyotes GM told him he was going to work on it. So, maybe there was things floated out there, but nothing concrete. And once again, every scenario you have said involves players already apart of their organizations. Completely different scenarios.

2. I’m not bending anything. The CBJ requested to meet with him. Yeah, they had signaled they were going with a center. That doesn’t mean they weren’t doing their due diligence. Michkov reportedly only met with a handful of teams. Arizona not being one of them. The bottom line, he wanted to control where he went. Columbus was not in his plans, and he wasn’t in ours. So again, nothing burger.

3. I never said you weren’t inclined to your opinion. You’re just going about it terribly. You can believe in Michkov all you want, but you don’t have to shit on Fantilli or Columbus to do so.

Maybe we just agree to disagree and move on.

No problem agreeing to disagree.

Lastly, I want to say that I’m not shitting on Fantilli, Carlsson, or any of these guys. They are very good players and I think they’ll have very good careers. I think though that there should be intense scrutiny on how they do, given who teams passed on to take them.

 

[Mrfenn92]

No problem agreeing to disagree.

Lastly, I want to say that I’m not shitting on Fantilli, Carlsson, or any of these guys. They are very good players and I think they’ll have very good careers. I think though that there should be intense scrutiny on how they do, given who teams passed on to take them.

Everyone’s career is 3 or 4 games in. It’s a useless exercise at this point

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

I did a quick Google search of '2023 NHL draft rankings, and clicked on the first 15 links (omitting the ones that ranked NA and Europe separate). All rankings, not mock drafts. Ready for the results?
#1 - Fantilli 2, Michkov 4
#2 - Fantilli 2, Michkov 4
#3 - Fantilli 2, Michkov 3
#4 - Michkov 2, Fantilli 3
#5 - Fantilli 2, Michkov 4
#6 - Fantilli 2, Michkov 3
#7 - Fantilli 2, Michkov 5
#8 - Fantilli 2, Michkov 3
#9 - Fantilli 2, Michkov 4
#10 - Fantilli 2, Michkov 5
#11 - Fantilli 2, Michkov 3
#12 - Fantill 2, Michkov 3
#13 - Michkov 2, Fantilli 3
#14 - Fantilli 2, Michkov 4
#15 - Michkov 2, Fantilli 3

So what are you going on about? Does it look like Michkov was a clear #2? Not a single person in the hockey world thought Columbus made a mistake drafting Fantilli over Michkov, at the time or now. Not a single Blue Jackets fan has given Michkov thought on our board all summer. If Michkov does great for Philly (one day), more power to them.

Your argument is indeed a nothingburger, you're clearly creating a narrative out of nothing. Openly 'scrutinizing' Columbus should have drafted Michkov isn't any more valid than about 1,000 other prospects drafted ahead of each other in the top 10. Go talk about how LA should have drafted Boldy over Turcotte or something, it's just as valid as this.

I don't know what you are trying to accomplish in derailing this thread, but you aren't coming across the way you think you are. I can promise you that.

You are making my argument for me. I said that Michkov was viewed as the obvious second (or first) choice and then it started to change when it became obvious where he would go. This happened a lot in the months leading up to the draft, which is a lot of the sources you cite, but also in the full year before the draft. People try to convince themselves what’s going to happen is the right thing.

To claim Fantilli was viewed as the better player in the 1, 2, 3 years leading up to the draft is simply inaccurate. Michkov was viewed on the same plane as Bedard. He dropped in the rankings when the war started and when it crystallized more the implications of his contract. Or are you going to claim a historic draft season in the KHL made him drop?

You can convince yourself of whatever you want, but the reason Michkov dropped was not because he was worse than anyone. The guys that rose above him in the rankings did for reasons that don’t relate to who is better at hockey. There are some fears that can be had. I’m not saying they weren’t real, but for these others to end up better selections something will have to either go drastically wrong with Michkov’s path to the NHL (possible) or someone (the ones picked ahead or Michkov) overpeforms or underperforms a lot.

 

[stevo61]

You are making my argument for me. I said that Michkov was viewed as the obvious second (or first) choice and then it started to change when it became obvious where he would go. This happened a lot in the months leading up to the draft, which is a lot of the sources you cite, but also in the full year before the draft. People try to convince themselves what’s going to happen is the right thing.

To claim Fantilli was viewed as the better player in the 1, 2, 3 years leading up to the draft is simply inaccurate. Michkov was viewed on the same plane as Bedard. He dropped in the rankings when the war started and when it crystallized more the implications of his contract. Or are you going to claim a historic draft season in the KHL made him drop?

Who cares where a player was ranked 3 years ago? Development isnt linear

 

[BB88]

You are making my argument for me. I said that Michkov was viewed as the obvious second (or first) choice and then it started to change when it became obvious where he would go. This happened a lot in the months leading up to the draft, which is a lot of the sources you cite, but also in the full year before the draft. People try to convince themselves what’s going to happen is the right thing.

To claim Fantilli was viewed as the better player in the 1, 2, 3 years leading up to the draft is simply inaccurate. Michkov was viewed on the same plane as Bedard. He dropped in the rankings when the war started and when it crystallized more the implications of his contract. Or are you going to claim a historic draft season in the KHL made him drop?

You can convince yourself of whatever you want, but the reason Michkov dropped was not because he was worse than anyone. The guys that rose above him in the rankings did for reasons that don’t relate to who is better at hockey. There are some fears that can be had. I’m not saying they weren’t real, but for these others to end up better selections something will have to either go drastically wrong with Michkov’s path to the NHL (possible) or someone (the ones picked ahead or Michkov) overpeforms or underperforms a lot.

Big part of Michkovs hype was build around past performance.

If you followed it close you know there were some concerns raised regarding Michkovs game/character

& absolutely idiotic to ignore what other prospects are doing and how they are developing and just going by but he was that 2 years ago but he was that 3 years ago!!!

Every prospect develops at different rate, do you think Montreal should have taken Wright 1st because he was seen as a 1st overall pick earlier?

Go watch how Carlsson got better as the season went on, by the end of it he was a better pro player than Michkov, but but but!!!!

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

Maybe because these superstar players had these rookie year totals:

MacKinnon 63 points (should be noted his next 3 years he had under 60 point seasons until he broke out as a 90 point player)

J. Hughes 21 points (had a lot of injuries early on but he didn't break out until last year)

Stamkos 46 points

M. Tkachuk 48 points (he didn't really break out until he was 24)

Draisaitl 9 points (37 gp. He had 51 in 72gp)

Kucherov 18 points (52 gp)

Pastrnak 27 points (46 gp, his sophomore year he had 26 points in 51 games he didn't start hitting 80+ points until he was 21)

So obviously everyone is different and you may be asking why those examples matter. These 3 18 year olds who made the NHL right out of the draft haven't even played 15 games combined yet and you want to overscrutinize them as they are just starting to adapt to the NHL? Doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me but let's go off and get relative with a guy still playing in a lesser league.

There's no guarantee these three will put up 70+ point rookie seasons and may "disappoint" in that regard, but that's not indicative of where they'll end up in their primes and it's certainly useless to use the first 5 games of their NHL careers to stack them up against Michkov who hasn't started his.

TL;DR: over scrutinizing their offensive output at this stage is a useless exercise. It's better to look at their on ice play and see how well they're adapting to the NHL, and early results are positive for each of the top 3 picks.

Sorry, but your examples make no sense. Most of those players either had very good rookie seasons or weren’t high draft picks.

If Fantilli or Carlsson are comparable to the rookie seasons of players like Slafkovsky, Lafreniere, Kakko, Dach, why shouldn’t they be scrutinized?

This was a scenario where their teams passed up on the best Russian prospect since Ovechkin and Malkin.

I’m not saying they are going to be good or bad. Look how Carlsson had a goal in his first game. He could turn around and score 25 points this year. It’s too early to know, but the idea that it doesn’t matter how they are doing and we gotta wait a few years to discuss how they’ve been doing makes no sense. The pressure has to be on, given the talent at the top of this draft.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

Cmon, PB, I like Michkov more too. But its okay to take 90points center with skating, shot and physicality over "Kucherov" even if Kucherov is a better player in vacuum. Clb sucked asses and have no real center to build the team around. Fantilli driving play well already, clb still not a great team, pretty young and unbalanced, even if Michkov is freaking huge in KHL, Fantilli is doing well in NHL, he looks better than Slaf year ago, he is looking way better than Lafreniere. It will take time for him for adaptation, and even when Michkov will finally join flyers and will play on a better level in his first or econd year, it still okay for cbj to having Fantilli. He is better than what they could get in the next draft. They would stay without center. They need him hard and Fantilli is good.

We are talking in hypotheticals, so that’s not to say they will be wrong. This will be proven over time. I think they made an obvious mistake. Time will tell.

If Columbus gets Dylan Larkin and Michkov ends up a better version of Kucherov, did Columbus make the right decision? That’s not to say Fantilli would be a bad player, but if you get a franchise player and you pass up on potentially one of the best players in the league eventually, I think that is a mistake. I think this applies to every team 2-6 that passed up on Michkov.

This will be proven out over time who made a good decision and who didn’t.

 

[Dr Jan Itor]

Thought he looked like a really good and promising young player in last night's game.

I think maybe the best draft year NCAA season of the last 20+ years, short of Jack Eichel, might be a "hockey related" reason why he rose in the rankings.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

Everyone’s career is 3 or 4 games in. It’s a useless exercise at this point

The season isn’t as young for everyone. Michkov has played 14 games for Sochi (and 1 for SKA). He’s 1PPG exactly for Sochi. He’s on pace for the best D+1 season ever in the KHL. That league has had a very long and successful history of producing NHL superstars.

Is it better to take the sample at 30 games than 15? Yes, but once again he’s pacing for yet another record. We have an idea of where this is going.

And no I’m not saying the KHL is the NHL, but you judge them where they’re playing. Michkov has done as good as can possibly be expected this season and he’s pressing on towards a great season.

 

[Mrfenn92]

The season isn’t as young for everyone. Michkov has played 14 games for Sochi (and 1 for SKA). He’s 1PPG exactly for Sochi. He’s on pace for the best D+1 season ever in the KHL. That league has had a very long and successful history of producing NHL superstars.

Is it better to take the sample at 30 games than 15? Yes, but once again he’s pacing for yet another record. We have an idea of where this is going.

And no I’m not saying the KHL is the NHL, but you judge them where they’re playing. Michkov has done as good as can possibly be expected this season and he’s pressing on towards a great season.

Think your just reaching for things that aren’t there.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

Big part of Michkovs hype was build around past performance.

If you followed it close you know there were some concerns raised regarding Michkovs game/character

& absolutely idiotic to ignore what other prospects are doing and how they are developing and just going by but he was that 2 years ago but he was that 3 years ago!!!

Every prospect develops at different rate, do you think Montreal should have taken Wright 1st because he was seen as a 1st overall pick earlier?

Go watch how Carlsson got better as the season went on, by the end of it he was a better pro player than Michkov, but but but!!!!

No, there aren’t. There has been nothing credibly suggested. There are a few people who suggested maybe there were some concerns, but nothing credible or serious ever materialized. One of his teammates even explained that his personality could rub some the wrong way because of how competitive he is, but it’s all with a positive intent and he just needs to learn a little.

And how can you say his play has been a question in recent years? He had a historic draft season in the KHL and his D+1 has also been historic so far.

 

[CBJx614]

Why are we still talking about Michkov in here? Last I checked he was still playing in the KHL and has absolutely nothing to do with Fantilli other than being in the same draft. We can start comparing the two once Michkov makes the NHL, until then can we keep the Michkov talk in the Michkov thread?

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

Think your just reaching for things that aren’t there.

Thank you for calling me a clown and then trying to play peacemaker. I don’t appreciate your attempt after you insulted me like that.

 

[stevo61]

This feels like Dubois and Puljujarvi all over again except Fantilli over Michkov isnt even a reach. When Fantilli does reach his potential it will be radio silence from the negative side.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

This feels like Dubois and Puljujarvi all over again except Fantilli over Michkov isnt even a reach. When Fantilli does reach his potential it will be radio silence from the negative side.

Because Michkov is really Puljujarvi. One player has no brain. The other has one of the best brains for the game you can have.

Fantilli’s skillset is a lot closer to Puljujarvi, not that I’m suggesting he won’t become a much better player.

 

[majormajor]

You are making my argument for me. I said that Michkov was viewed as the obvious second (or first) choice and then it started to change when it became obvious where he would go. This happened a lot in the months leading up to the draft, which is a lot of the sources you cite, but also in the full year before the draft. People try to convince themselves what’s going to happen is the right thing.

To claim Fantilli was viewed as the better player in the 1, 2, 3 years leading up to the draft is simply inaccurate. Michkov was viewed on the same plane as Bedard. He dropped in the rankings when the war started and when it crystallized more the implications of his contract. Or are you going to claim a historic draft season in the KHL made him drop?

You can convince yourself of whatever you want, but the reason Michkov dropped was not because he was worse than anyone. The guys that rose above him in the rankings did for reasons that don’t relate to who is better at hockey. There are some fears that can be had. I’m not saying they weren’t real, but for these others to end up better selections something will have to either go drastically wrong with Michkov’s path to the NHL (possible) or someone (the ones picked ahead or Michkov) overpeforms or underperforms a lot.

You seem to have a hard time when scouts continue to do their jobs in the draft year. Of course rankings change. Remember your skepticism regarding Sanderson (who now looks like an elite #1D) and Cutter Gauthier (who it now seems scouts correctly moved up the rankings)? This is why scouts watch the games. In the case of Fantilli he had a historic NCAA season and won the hobey baker, of course he climbed up the rankings.

Sorry, but your examples make no sense. Most of those players either had very good rookie seasons or weren’t high draft picks.

If Fantilli or Carlsson are comparable to the rookie seasons of players like Slafkovsky, Lafreniere, Kakko, Dach, why shouldn’t they be scrutinized?

They should be, sure. But they're both vastly better prospects.

 

[stevo61]

Because Michkov is really Puljujarvi. One player has no brain. The other has one of the best brains for the game you can have.

Fantilli’s skillset is a lot closer to Puljujarvi, not that I’m suggesting he won’t become a much better player.

I fail to believe you are actually dense enough to not understand the point of that statement but maybe thats on me.

 

[Guadana]

We are talking in hypotheticals, so that’s not to say they will be wrong. This will be proven over time. I think they made an obvious mistake. Time will tell.

If Columbus gets Dylan Larkin and Michkov ends up a better version of Kucherov, did Columbus make the right decision? That’s not to say Fantilli would be a bad player, but if you get a franchise player and you pass up on potentially one of the best players in the league eventually, I think that is a mistake. I think this applies to every team 2-6 that passed up on Michkov.

This will be proven out over time who made a good decision and who didn’t.

Its too early, may be Michkov will be somewhere in between Kaprisov and Panarin and Fantilli will be better than Larkin. You can call Panarin as better player than hypothetical 90 points Larkin, but team without centers with Panarin or Kaprisov can't do anything. Good two way 85-90 center is what Carolina have in Aho for example, and overall its better. And even if Michkov will be Kucherov or even better, its still a problem for Columbus to have no good centers. And they would never find him after this summer. Is Michkov better than Fantilli? Yes. With what CBJ already has Fantilli can be more important. Because NHL isn't about better talent in vacuum.
Ducks case? More interesting, but it would be better to have Zegras on the wing for them. Carlsson still has potential to be 80-90+ points dominant center. Yes, its still not a Kucherovs level player, but they still have a lot of talents and true first center is more important for them.
Is Michkov top two talent? Yes. Is he more talented than Fantilli and Carlsson? Yes. Is it okay to draft future top line center with 80-90+ points potential, who will drive play and will win physical battles, can playmaking and scoring? Yes. Its okay. Not great, but understandable.
And again, I agree that Michkov is better player, his game and result are more impressive, narrative about weak team is stupid - if he would produce on ska, same people would say "good team help him and cover every problem, put him in good situation", words about weak league is a pure idiotium, people with iq 36 can't be criticized, they don't know what they are talking about. We should care them or at least don't touch.
But still both Carlsson and Fantilli are great prospects to draft. At least for now. May be gap will be more huge with time, but I can't say that both or one of them shows something bad for their moment of their career. SJ, Arizona, and Montreal - they outplayed and outpoliticayed themselves. Wish them to stay on course. That was stupid or/and pathetic.

and Fantilli is really good, he drives and creates chanses. I trully think that cbj fans should be happy with him, he is dynamic. He played well enough for their future first line center job. And for third pick overall. Even if there was much better winger.

 

[Mrfenn92]

Thank you for calling me a clown and then trying to play peacemaker. I don’t appreciate your attempt after you insulted me like that.

Ok. Not calling you a clown personally. It’s your takes over the last page and a half that doesn’t make any sense.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

You seem to have a hard time when scouts continue to do their jobs in the draft year. Of course rankings change. Remember your skepticism regarding Sanderson (who now looks like an elite #1D) and Cutter Gauthier (who it now seems scouts correctly moved up the rankings)? This is why scouts watch the games. In the case of Fantilli he had a historic NCAA season and won the hobey baker, of course he climbed up the rankings.

You’ve still not answered for your bizarre Michkov claims. You went silent when pressed.

You’re trying to play some gotcha game. To be clear, I never said that I had problems with people elevating Gauthier. You are making things up. Did I have him at 5? No, and I gave my opinion he was a little over-drafted/ranked. I don’t know how you’ve deduced what you did from that. I don’t think I’m wrong about Gauthier. Your opinion is that he should’ve been drafted where he was. I don’t agree. Time will tell.

And you’ve completely distorted the point I was making about Sanderson years back also. Sanderson’s stock rose after hockey stopped. Right or wrong, that has nothing to do with Fantilli or Michkov. Sanderson is good. Never once claimed he wouldn’t be a good player, but the points I was making at the time still hold true. If you want to distort my argument to I didn’t like him, maybe you’ll come up with what you did and claim I was wrong, but my argument was a lot less superficial and more detailed than that.

Michkov’s draft stock was already where he ended up way before the season ended and Fantilli ended up being drafted where his stock was just about the whole season.

 

[BB88]

No, there aren’t. There has been nothing credibly suggested. There are a few people who suggested maybe there were some concerns, but nothing credible or serious ever materialized. One of his teammates even explained that his personality could rub some the wrong way because of how competitive he is, but it’s all with a positive intent and he just needs to learn a little.

And how can you say his play has been a question in recent years? He had a historic draft season in the KHL and his D+1 has also been historic so far.

We’ve gone this through time and time again

-Pre Michkov how many franchise prospects had KHL developed for draft? Zero
The record was held by Tarasenko before.

Michkov never dominated KHL last year, he wasn’t controlling games like a superstar.
His game defensively needs a lot of work, his separation speed was lacking last year.

Carlsson by the end of the year was making a clearly bigger impact at pro level.
Stop blind stat watching and actually watch some games/tape.

Michkov is never going to mean more to winning than a top5 C in the game.
If either Carlsson or Fantilli end up as such or around that range their Gm’s won’t give a flying ….ck what Michkov is doing.

& go watch Tkachuks, Cooleys, Beniers stats, -1 or +1 and see how Fantilli dominated them.

 

[BB88]

The season isn’t as young for everyone. Michkov has played 14 games for Sochi (and 1 for SKA). He’s 1PPG exactly for Sochi. He’s on pace for the best D+1 season ever in the KHL. That league has had a very long and successful history of producing NHL superstars.

Is it better to take the sample at 30 games than 15? Yes, but once again he’s pacing for yet another record. We have an idea of where this is going.

And no I’m not saying the KHL is the NHL, but you judge them where they’re playing. Michkov has done as good as can possibly be expected this season and he’s pressing on towards a great season.

KHL is not even remotely close to NHL.

Even if Michkov didn’t have s contract he should have never played in the NHL this season, he wouldn’t have been ready.

& why are you constantly acting like Michkov is quaranteed to hit his ceiling while Fantilli is going to stay away from hitting his ceiling?

 

[Guadana]

We’ve gone this through time and time again

-Pre Michkov how many franchise prospects had KHL developed for draft? Zero
The record was held by Tarasenko before.

Michkov never dominated KHL last year, he wasn’t controlling games like a superstar.
His game defensively needs a lot of work, his separation speed was lacking last year.

Carlsson by the end of the year was making a clearly bigger impact at pro level.
Stop blind stat watching and actually watch some games/tape.

Michkov is never going to mean more to winning than a top5 C in the game.
If either Carlsson or Fantilli end up as such or around that range their Gm’s won’t give a flying ….ck what Michkov is doing.

& go watch Tkachuks, Cooleys, Beniers stats, -1 or +1 and see how Fantilli dominated them.

But you are missing here. Michkov was great and played with huge smarts, khl players were never on the draft because its hard for them, even for Kucherov. Kucherov level winger is more important and Kucherov even more successful on nhl level than mostly any modern nhl player. Its okay to say "first center is important and is okay reason to draft" but when you call them "more important" than winger of Kucherov level talent (or may be even more) you just lie to yourself.