C Adam Fantilli - (2023, 3rd, CBJ) Part 2

[Pavel Buchnevich]

Yes, the Jackets were either going to take Fantilli or Smith at 3. They wanted a center.

Michkov did not want to go to Columbus. He cancelled their pre draft meeting (even if it was just a formality) with us. It seems pretty mutual. Michkov was never in play for Columbus and Columbus was never in play for Michkov. This is a total nothingburger issue that you've brought in here.

And Logan Cooley was apparently never going to play for Arizona and Keller wanted a trade from Arizona. Players change their minds.

Your team was literally saying he wasn’t in play. Why would he meet with a team that was quite clear they didn’t want him?

You only claim it’s a nothing burger because you’ve now convinced yourself about Fantilli. If Michkov becomes one of the best players in the league and Fantilli is Dylan Larkin (hypothetically), of course it wasn’t a nothing burger. This applies for every team that passed on him. They can try to convince themselves it was the right decision to pass on one of the best draft prospects of recent memory, but there’s no reason why we shouldn’t be comparing the players they picked to the one they passed on.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

What a strange post. I don’t follow the Jackets but they got a high end player to build around. Whether he’s playing the middle yet is irrelevant. Maybe they want to start him on the wall considering they just switched gears with coaches. That’s what their coaches want to do? That’s their prerogative. I think they may know a bit more than yourself. He’s absolutely a centre. He’s a great kid - watch the draft with how excited he was watching his buddies getting picked. A good Canadian kid. If i had a gun to my head I pick him ahead of Leo and I like Leo also.

Why does his nationality matter?

Did they pick the best player? That’s what matters.

We don’t know yet, but to say we shouldn’t be comparing Fantilli to who they could’ve picked doesn’t make sense.

 

[BB88]

And Logan Cooley was apparently never going to play for Arizona and Keller wanted a trade from Arizona. Players change their minds.

Your team was literally saying he wasn’t in play. Why would he meet with a team that was quite clear they didn’t want him?

You only claim it’s a nothing burger because you’ve now convinced yourself about Fantilli. If Michkov becomes one of the best players in the league and Fantilli is Dylan Larkin (hypothetically), of course it wasn’t a nothing burger. This applies for every team that passed on him. They can try to convince themselves it was the right decision to pass on one of the best draft prospects of recent memory, but there’s no reason why we shouldn’t be comparing the players they picked to the one they passed on.

Fantilli wasn’t one of the best draft prospects in recent memory and playing a more valuable position?

Why does his nationality matter?

Did they pick the best player? That’s what matters.

We don’t know yet, but to say we shouldn’t be comparing Fantilli to who they could’ve picked doesn’t make sense.

You can compare players but bs will get called out always

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

Fantilli wasn’t one of the best draft prospects in recent memory and playing a more valuable position?

Why don’t you tell us what you thought of the players before we saw the draft lottery?

Michkov was viewed at the same level as Bedard before the war. He did nothing to dissuade that comparison after the war started and all of a sudden he’s the 7th pick.

Not to say any of the other players aren’t good, but I think anyone that thinks anyone other than Bedard is at the same level as Michkov is either lying to themselves or will be proven very wrong over time.

You can compare players but bs will get called out always

What BS?

Fantilli had a weak start to the season after people were convinced he’d be a Calder contender. One of the supposed reasons to pass on Michkov was that Fantilli will be playing center for a team that desperately needs one. Do they still need one so badly if Fantilli is only playing center part time?

You are asking for mediocrity if you don’t care how Michkov is doing in comparison to Fantilli. Of course I would be closely monitoring how the other options are doing. Anyone should be thinking that way.

 

[Mrfenn92]

 

[stevo61]

Dont make me get George in here to spread the gospel of the actual great NHL prospect Jordan Dumais.

Noone had to convince themselves to accept Fantilli, everyone for months was Bedard/Fantilli or bust. As the season progressed and people got to know Carlsson better he also became part of that group.

The basic arguement right now is the boxscore says hes bad so he must be real bad. Meanwhile we have fans of opposing teams commenting on how good he looked

 

[CBJWerenski8]

And Logan Cooley was apparently never going to play for Arizona and Keller wanted a trade from Arizona. Players change their minds.

Your team was literally saying he wasn’t in play. Why would he meet with a team that was quite clear they didn’t want him?

You only claim it’s a nothing burger because you’ve now convinced yourself about Fantilli. If Michkov becomes one of the best players in the league and Fantilli is Dylan Larkin (hypothetically), of course it wasn’t a nothing burger. This applies for every team that passed on him. They can try to convince themselves it was the right decision to pass on one of the best draft prospects of recent memory, but there’s no reason why we shouldn’t be comparing the players they picked to the one they passed on.

1. Cooley never said he was never going to play for Arizona and Keller never asked for a trade. Also, if I played into this that it actually happened, both players were apart of the organization before both of these rumors came out. Not prior. Completely different situations.

2. You’re moving the goalposts. Michkov only met with select teams, teams he wanted to meet with. We were not one of them. Neither was Arizona. Neither was Anaheim.

3. No I’m claiming it’s a nothing burger because you’re literally in here to stir shit for no reason. It has nothing itself to do with Fantilli, who almost every publication had as the second overall pick for a variety of reasons. I’m not here to convince you of anything except your weird crusade to put down Fantilli/Columbus because we “passed on Michkov”, is in fact weird and misplaced.

Take up your weird crusade with the teams that actually passed on Michkov that he met with.

 

[QJL]

Who cares if Michkov didn’t want to play for certain teams? He has always been a significantly better prospect than Fantilli. You still draft him and you trade him for a mountain of assets or another actual superstar.

5 teams made a massive mistake in the draft. I honestly still can’t believe it.

 

[HanSolo]

Haven't stopped liking the kid even though Anaheim went with Carlsson.

Kind of rooting for both of them to be as close to Bedard as possible. Glad to see he's doing well early on. The top 3 of this draft have all been impressing as 18 year olds.

 

[stevo61]

Who cares if Michkov didn’t want to play for certain teams? He has always been a significantly better prospect than Fantilli. You still draft him and you trade him for a mountain of assets or another actual superstar.

5 teams made a massive mistake in the draft. I honestly still can’t believe it.

You know what asset teams wouldnt trade for a winger prospect no matter how skilled? A legit high end 1C

 

[QJL]

You know what asset teams wouldnt trade for a winger prospect no matter how skilled? A legit high end 1C

I’ll trade almost all the centers alive for a sniper Kucherov, thanks.

 

[stevo61]

I’ll trade almost all the centers alive for a sniper Kucherov, thanks.

You may but NHL GMs wont

 

[majormajor]

Who cares if Michkov didn’t want to play for certain teams?

I agree, it kind of hides the real issue here, that he isn't on that level.

He has always been a significantly better prospect than Fantilli.

This draft had perhaps the greatest top 3 ever, and Michkov wasn't good enough. All the nationality stuff is hiding the fact that many scouts weren't that interested in him - not to say he wouldn't have gone #1 in some other years.

You still draft him and you trade him for a mountain of assets or another actual superstar.

Fantilli and Carlsson will be elite #1Cs in three years with 200+ pts apiece behind them, and you will not be able to trade Michkov or any other prospect for them.

 

[CBJWerenski8]

Who cares if Michkov didn’t want to play for certain teams

Probably the teams he doesn’t want to play for.

 

[OilersFanatics505]

Probably the teams he doesn’t want to play for.

Right? It’s not rocket science. Why would a team burn a valuable asset on something that won’t help? So you can get .50 cents on the dollar later on?

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

1. Cooley never said he was never going to play for Arizona and Keller never asked for a trade. Also, if I played into this that it actually happened, both players were apart of the organization before both of these rumors came out. Not prior. Completely different situations.

2. You’re moving the goalposts. Michkov only met with select teams, teams he wanted to meet with. We were not one of them. Neither was Arizona. Neither was Anaheim.

3. No I’m claiming it’s a nothing burger because you’re literally in here to stir shit for no reason. It has nothing itself to do with Fantilli, who almost every publication had as the second overall pick for a variety of reasons. I’m not here to convince you of anything except your weird crusade to put down Fantilli/Columbus because we “passed on Michkov”, is in fact weird and misplaced.

Take up your weird crusade with the teams that actually passed on Michkov that he met with.

1. Friedman said this was true on his podcast. I’m inclined to believe the most plugged in person in hockey. However, what about Hellebuyck wanting to go elsewhere and then he signs a big extension? Players change their minds if a team is willing to show them a good vision.

2. No, you are bending the sequence of events. Michkov met with teams like a few days before the draft. CBJ signaled way before that they were taking a center at 3, and not considering Michkov. Why would he meet with a team that wasn’t going to draft him?

3. I think the attitude of some is off. I’m allowed to give my opinion. If it’s stirring up debate, so be it.

Yes, you can preach patience with Fantilli. I’m sure he’ll be a very good player, but the idea that there’s no pressure and whatever outcome you get from him is good enough is ridiculous. This was the most stacked draft we’ve seen in a long time at the top and many teams passed up the best Russian prospect in over a decade. Why shouldn’t there be intense scrutiny over how the players are doing?

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

Dont make me get George in here to spread the gospel of the actual great NHL prospect Jordan Dumais.

Noone had to convince themselves to accept Fantilli, everyone for months was Bedard/Fantilli or bust. As the season progressed and people got to know Carlsson better he also became part of that group.

The basic arguement right now is the boxscore says hes bad so he must be real bad. Meanwhile we have fans of opposing teams commenting on how good he looked

You are revising history and making stuff up.

The majority of people believed that Michkov was the clear second best prospect in the draft, if not the best. Was he likely to go second? No, but it doesn’t mean that the decision shouldn’t be scrutinized. Only after it became clear where he’d go that people started telling themselves that Fantilli, Carlsson, Smith, and apparently also Reinbacher and Simashev are better.

To be clear no one is saying Fantilli is bad, but the boxscore does matter. Many thought he’d be a Calder contender. Right now, he’s had a slow start. I don’t know why this shouldn’t be scrutinized.

 

[stevo61]

You are revising history and making stuff up.

The majority of people believed that Michkov was the clear second best prospect in the draft, if not the best. Was he likely to go second? No, but it doesn’t mean that the decision shouldn’t be scrutinized. Only after it became clear where he’d go that people started telling themselves that Fantilli, Carlsson, Smith, and apparently also Reinbacher and Simashev are better.

To be clear no one is saying Fantilli is bad, but the boxscore does matter. Many thought he’d be a Calder contender. Right now, he’s had a slow start. I don’t know why this shouldn’t be scrutinized.

Im talking about the Columbus board. Once it was obvious we were looking at a top pick the board was mostly set on Bedard-Fantilli-Carlsson with some minor differences of opinion. So no, im not revising history, you can search my post history if you really care enough. Halfway through the season I said I liked Carlsson a touch more than Fantilli but wasnt confident in that. I also said I wouldnt be sad if they took Michkov but it wasnt my preference.

5 games isnt time to scrutinize. Hes got the same totals as Jason Robertson right now and I dont think Dallas fans are jumping off any bridges. The important thing is hes doing the small things and showing he actually belongs which he is and the points will come. Could easily have a couple more goals

 

[CBJWerenski8]

1. Friedman said this was true on his podcast. I’m inclined to believe the most plugged in person in hockey. However, what about Hellebuyck wanting to go elsewhere and then he signs a big extension? Players change their minds if a team is willing to show them a good vision.

2. No, you are bending the sequence of events. Michkov met with teams like a few days before the draft. CBJ signaled way before that they were taking a center at 3, and not considering Michkov. Why would he meet with a team that wasn’t going to draft him?

3. I think the attitude of some is off. I’m allowed to give my opinion. If it’s stirring up debate, so be it.

1. I listen to Friedman’s podcast. I don’t ever recall him saying Cooley wasn’t signing or Keller asked for a trade. I remember him saying he heard it, but never reported it. And the Coyotes GM told him he was going to work on it. So, maybe there was things floated out there, but nothing concrete. And once again, every scenario you have said involves players already apart of their organizations. Completely different scenarios.

2. I’m not bending anything. The CBJ requested to meet with him. Yeah, they had signaled they were going with a center. That doesn’t mean they weren’t doing their due diligence. Michkov reportedly only met with a handful of teams. Arizona not being one of them. The bottom line, he wanted to control where he went. Columbus was not in his plans, and he wasn’t in ours. So again, nothing burger.

3. I never said you weren’t inclined to your opinion. You’re just going about it terribly. You can believe in Michkov all you want, but you don’t have to shit on Fantilli or Columbus to do so.

Maybe we just agree to disagree and move on.

 

[jj cale]

1. Friedman said this was true on his podcast. I’m inclined to believe the most plugged in person in hockey. However, what about Hellebuyck wanting to go elsewhere and then he signs a big extension? Players change their minds if a team is willing to show them a good vision.

2. No, you are bending the sequence of events. Michkov met with teams like a few days before the draft. CBJ signaled way before that they were taking a center at 3, and not considering Michkov. Why would he meet with a team that wasn’t going to draft him?

3. I think the attitude of some is off. I’m allowed to give my opinion. If it’s stirring up debate, so be it.

Yes, you can preach patience with Fantilli. I’m sure he’ll be a very good player, but the idea that there’s no pressure and whatever outcome you get from him is good enough is ridiculous. This was the most stacked draft we’ve seen in a long time at the top and many teams passed up the best Russian prospect in over a decade. Why shouldn’t there be intense scrutiny over how the players are doing?

I'm certainly intensely scrutinizing by beloved Habs choice of Reinbacher over Michkov. I can understand why CBJ took Fantilli over Michkov, at least it makes SOME sense. But the Habs decision? That's an awful lot tougher for me to make sense out of.

 

[ProfessorFink22]

You are revising history and making stuff up.

The majority of people believed that Michkov was the clear second best prospect in the draft, if not the best. Was he likely to go second? No, but it doesn’t mean that the decision shouldn’t be scrutinized. Only after it became clear where he’d go that people started telling themselves that Fantilli, Carlsson, Smith, and apparently also Reinbacher and Simashev are better.

To be clear no one is saying Fantilli is bad, but the boxscore does matter. Many thought he’d be a Calder contender. Right now, he’s had a slow start. I don’t know why this shouldn’t be scrutinized.

I did a quick Google search of '2023 NHL draft rankings, and clicked on the first 15 links (omitting the ones that ranked NA and Europe separate). All rankings, not mock drafts. Ready for the results?
#1 - Fantilli 2, Michkov 4
#2 - Fantilli 2, Michkov 4
#3 - Fantilli 2, Michkov 3
#4 - Michkov 2, Fantilli 3
#5 - Fantilli 2, Michkov 4
#6 - Fantilli 2, Michkov 3
#7 - Fantilli 2, Michkov 5
#8 - Fantilli 2, Michkov 3
#9 - Fantilli 2, Michkov 4
#10 - Fantilli 2, Michkov 5
#11 - Fantilli 2, Michkov 3
#12 - Fantill 2, Michkov 3
#13 - Michkov 2, Fantilli 3
#14 - Fantilli 2, Michkov 4
#15 - Michkov 2, Fantilli 3

So what are you going on about? Does it look like Michkov was a clear #2? Not a single person in the hockey world thought Columbus made a mistake drafting Fantilli over Michkov, at the time or now. Not a single Blue Jackets fan has given Michkov thought on our board all summer. If Michkov does great for Philly (one day), more power to them.

Your argument is indeed a nothingburger, you're clearly creating a narrative out of nothing. Openly 'scrutinizing' Columbus should have drafted Michkov isn't any more valid than about 1,000 other prospects drafted ahead of each other in the top 10. Go talk about how LA should have drafted Boldy over Turcotte or something, it's just as valid as this.

I don't know what you are trying to accomplish in derailing this thread, but you aren't coming across the way you think you are. I can promise you that.

 

[BB88]

Why don’t you tell us what you thought of the players before we saw the draft lottery?

Michkov was viewed at the same level as Bedard before the war. He did nothing to dissuade that comparison after the war started and all of a sudden he’s the 7th pick.

Not to say any of the other players aren’t good, but I think anyone that thinks anyone other than Bedard is at the same level as Michkov is either lying to themselves or will be proven very wrong over time.


What BS?

Fantilli had a weak start to the season after people were convinced he’d be a Calder contender. One of the supposed reasons to pass on Michkov was that Fantilli will be playing center for a team that desperately needs one. Do they still need one so badly if Fantilli is only playing center part time?

You are asking for mediocrity if you don’t care how Michkov is doing in comparison to Fantilli. Of course I would be closely monitoring how the other options are doing. Anyone should be thinking that way.

I said all the time Michkov at 4, behind the franchise C prospects.
At 4 I’d be loving life as a Gm if I was able to pick at 4, but not before the C’s because of their overall impact on the game.
That’s what I was saying pre draft.

& yeah bs gets called out.
You brought up Michkov here because of Fantillis ”weak start”
Fantilli hasn’t had a weak start to his NHL career, about exactly what realistic hockey fans would have expected/hoped to see. A player who clearly belongs in the league from the start.
In every game he’s been creating scoring chances& on his own.
McDavid wasn’t McDavid from game 1& no top picks post 2016 draft were dominating forces right out of the gate/on their rookie seasons.

It’s absolutely useless to bring up KHL stats as comparison, it’s an inferior league and Michkov isn’t a rookie in the KHL.

& what the hell are you talking about him starting as a winger entering the league in his +1 season, are you a rookie watching the NHL?
It’s normal for C’s start on the wing, get settled in.

Also in Fantillis case if you’d have followed the Jackets at all this summer/pre season Vincent has been talking about not putting too much focus on who’s listed at C on paper.

Fantilli wasn’t drafted at 3 only because he was a C, if he hits his ceiling his game will impact on winning more than one dimensional wingers.

 

[HanSolo]

You are revising history and making stuff up.

The majority of people believed that Michkov was the clear second best prospect in the draft, if not the best. Was he likely to go second? No, but it doesn’t mean that the decision shouldn’t be scrutinized. Only after it became clear where he’d go that people started telling themselves that Fantilli, Carlsson, Smith, and apparently also Reinbacher and Simashev are better.

To be clear no one is saying Fantilli is bad, but the boxscore does matter. Many thought he’d be a Calder contender. Right now, he’s had a slow start. I don’t know why this shouldn’t be scrutinized.

Maybe because these superstar players had these rookie year totals:

MacKinnon 63 points (should be noted his next 3 years he had under 60 point seasons until he broke out as a 90 point player)

J. Hughes 21 points (had a lot of injuries early on but he didn't break out until last year)

Stamkos 46 points

M. Tkachuk 48 points (he didn't really break out until he was 24)

Draisaitl 9 points (37 gp. He had 51 in 72gp)

Kucherov 18 points (52 gp)

Pastrnak 27 points (46 gp, his sophomore year he had 26 points in 51 games he didn't start hitting 80+ points until he was 21)

So obviously everyone is different and you may be asking why those examples matter. These 3 18 year olds who made the NHL right out of the draft haven't even played 15 games combined yet and you want to overscrutinize them as they are just starting to adapt to the NHL? Doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me but let's go off and get relative with a guy still playing in a lesser league.

There's no guarantee these three will put up 70+ point rookie seasons and may "disappoint" in that regard, but that's not indicative of where they'll end up in their primes and it's certainly useless to use the first 5 games of their NHL careers to stack them up against Michkov who hasn't started his.

TL;DR: over scrutinizing their offensive output at this stage is a useless exercise. It's better to look at their on ice play and see how well they're adapting to the NHL, and early results are positive for each of the top 3 picks.

 

[ijuka]

Why does his nationality matter?

Did they pick the best player? That’s what matters.

We don’t know yet, but to say we shouldn’t be comparing Fantilli to who they could’ve picked doesn’t make sense.

Fantilli's playing in NHL, Michkov isn't. Doing well in KHL doesn't mean that you'll do well in NHL. Also, Fantilli's 2 points in 5 games isn't that bad. McDavid had 1 point in 4 games to start his career.

Remember Eeli Tolvanen started his season by scoring over a point per game in KHL right after being drafted, but in NHL he struggled, though now he's settled into a reasonable second liner. And KHL was a stronger league back when Tolvanen played there.

Meanwhile, you're saying Michkov has the highest hockey IQ out of all players, even including those in NHL. Who's being reasonable and who is not?

 

[BB88]

Maybe because these superstar players had these rookie year totals:

MacKinnon 63 points (should be noted his next 3 years he had under 60 point seasons until he broke out as a 90 point player)

J. Hughes 21 points (had a lot of injuries early on but he didn't break out until last year)

Stamkos 46 points

M. Tkachuk 48 points (he didn't really break out until he was 24)

Draisaitl 9 points (37 gp. He had 51 in 72gp)

Kucherov 18 points (52 gp)

Pastrnak 27 points (46 gp, his sophomore year he had 26 points in 51 games he didn't start hitting 80+ points until he was 21)

So obviously everyone is different and you may be asking why those examples matter. These 3 18 year olds who made the NHL right out of the draft haven't even played 10 games combined yet and you want to overscrutinize them as they are just starting to adapt to the NHL? Doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me but let's go off and get relative with a guy still playing in a lesser league.

There's no guarantee these three will put up 70+ point rookie seasons and may "disappoint" in that regard, but that's not indicative of where they'll end up in their primes and it's certainly useless to use the first 5 games of their NHL careers to stack them up against Michkov who hasn't started his.

TL;DR: over scrutinizing their offensive output at this stage is a useless exercise. It's better to look at their on ice play and see how well they're adapting to the NHL, and early results are positive for each of the top 3 picks.

It’s completely pathetic.

Columbus has played 5 games which means there’s 77 games left to play still.
A bit of an overreaction?

Fantilli has neither been dead weight, he’s created offense& scoring chances. What you’d like to see from a kid in this position.

Vast majority of the fans were looking at 40-50 points as a successfull rookie season, not 70 points. That was the absolute ceiling some people thought he could hit with 40-50 being the real expectation.

There’s so much time for Fantilli and these kids to grow and develop during this season, we have no idea where they are by game 40 or 60. He could have a ppg strecht at some point of the season.

Then to try to downplay him by comparing him to someone not even playing in the same league…..