Value of: Brett Pesce

[LABound]

I'd say Pesce and Hamilton share time as the "second pair" RHD considering they have almost the same exact ATOI (currently Hamilton is averaging 19:44 to Pesce's 19:43, just one second more, almost certainly owing largely to the fact the Canes had 22 minutes on the PP last game)

Interestingly Pesce is getting a surprising % of o-zone starts at 62 percent, d-zone at 37 percent where you'd think those numbers should be more or less reversed.

Uhm propping up Offense for a trade perhaps ?

I've never played a sport where the high end guys ever wanted to play less ...it's competitive nature to want to play more.. be in critical situations . Hamilton is 100% not happy playing under 20 mins .

Move some of that currency for a need not a surplus.

Basic economics.


EDIT lol I forgot I got shamed out of this thread ...........I'll slowly tip toe away .

 

[SHANNYPLAN]

Willy for Pesce lets getter done

Pesce would look unbelievable next to Bobby Orr

Edit: Morgan Rielly*

 

[GoldiFox]

Pesce is actually really good at transition (PMD) too.

Pesce is one of the more creative offensive D the Canes have. I’d say he is the best stickhandler against a zone (whereas Slavin is better through transition), he gets a Chabot look about him when he’s making plays confidently in the offensive zone. High 4-way mobility makes him a threat to hold/distribute the puck as well as set up as a shooter.

But don’t bother with these guys. They have never actually keyed in on Pesce and have little understanding of the Canes defensive deployment. They look up HockeyDB and assume a 22 year old D has peaked at whatever his last season was. Obviously Pesce isn’t a huge offensive threat, however no Canes fan will be surprised if he hits 30-40 points this year with zero PP time. Morgan Rielly didn’t score above 36 points until his 5th year in the league.

 

[McOvechking]

I'm not sure the incentive from Carolina's perspective to trade Pesce. He's a young, cost controlled, RHD with a ton of offensive upside and the ability to play big minutes.

I'm not saying Pesce is a better hockey player than Nylander, but to the Canes you gotta think he holds more value at this point. Especially when comparing contract situations.

As an Oilers fan, I'd love to get Pesce. I think Faulk would be more attainable, and TVR even more-so.

I'd offer Draisaitl for Pesce + Wallmark + a pick or something to that effect
It'd be Puljujarvi for Faulk
And Khaira for TVR

 

[member 157595]

I'm not sure the incentive from Carolina's perspective to trade Pesce. He's a young, cost controlled, RHD with a ton of offensive upside and the ability to play big minutes.

I'm not saying Pesce is a better hockey player than Nylander, but to the Canes you gotta think he holds more value at this point. Especially when comparing contract situations.

As an Oilers fan, I'd love to get Pesce. I think Faulk would be more attainable, and TVR even more-so.

I'd offer Draisaitl for Pesce + Wallmark + a pick or something to that effect
It'd be Puljujarvi for Faulk
And Khaira for TVR

I've long said that Faulk makes sense for Edmonton, but that the two sides may have a difficult time agreeing on a trade. Faulk definitely doesn't fit for Toronto.

I don't see Carolina moving anyone important while the team is hot, though I still believe a Nylander-Pesce trade could be mutually beneficial in the long run. Maybe that's the blue-and-white talking though.

 

[TFHockey]

I'm not sure the incentive from Carolina's perspective to trade Pesce. He's a young, cost controlled, RHD with a ton of offensive upside and the ability to play big minutes.

I'm not saying Pesce is a better hockey player than Nylander, but to the Canes you gotta think he holds more value at this point. Especially when comparing contract situations.

As an Oilers fan, I'd love to get Pesce. I think Faulk would be more attainable, and TVR even more-so.

I'd offer Draisaitl for Pesce + Wallmark + a pick or something to that effect
It'd be Puljujarvi for Faulk
And Khaira for TVR

Although I am with you when it comes to improving our D, I can't see Draisaitl going for this. And I wouldn't cough up Puljujarvi for Faulk... and lastly, Jujhar has been excellent for us and cheap as heck. Do you just hate our forwards? LOL

 

[Cane mutiny]

Can we plz put this thread to bed now? Pesce's going nowhere anytime soon. His contract value and his play on the ice are a combination that's too important to CAR to lose. It would take more than anyone would give to get him out of our lineup right now. = Truth

 

[NotOpie]

If Pesce stagnates what is he? a good 2/3? Nylander started his career with back to back 60 point seasons. He too like Matthews suffered from being on a lacklustre pp unit last year. Nylander's numbers compare pretty favourably to some great forwards in the league. He's already a first liner. I think they have equal value. Leafs take risk in Nylander potentially turning into a ppg talent and transitioning back to center full time.

Interesting how your premise assumes Pesce stagnates but makes no such equivalent assumption about Nylander. Both could or both could improve or both could decline. Indications are that both should continue to improve. Just as you claim Nylander is a 1st liner, Canes fans know that for the last couple of years, Pesce has been the RHD of their top pairing. As I said, I'm a fan of the Canes and a bigger Pesce fan. But I'm not making any wild claims. In my opinion, his game at his position with his contract makes him clearly more valuable than Nylander.

Nylander if signed to a contract between 6-6.6 will have more value than Pesce.

If he'd sign that contract, wouldn't it already be done? Secondly, Pesce already is signed long term at a tad over $4 million per season. For a shut down RHD with offensive upside, that's incredibly valuable. We can play the "what if" game all we want, but Nylander hasn't signed a team friendly contract and that impacts his value dramatically as well.

Mhm...But then again you straight-faced claimed that Pesce's value is the higher value. Let's chalk that opinion up with the one that occasions the player's absence as something germane to the conversation.

I straight faced claimed his value is higher because none of us know what the future is, Pesce is already signed to an incredible long term deal for what he brings, is actually showing the offensive upside that Canes fans hoped for, has played in the top pair for the last 2 seasons, and despite Nylander's ability to "play center", he currently doesn't. He plays RW. Pesce simply plays the more valuable position.

Even with all of this said, I wouldn't trade Pesce for Nylander, even with an add (unless the add was crazy). Not because the value isn't close, but because he simply makes the players around him better and the Canes are benefitting from that.

 

[ITM]

I straight faced claimed his value is higher because none of us know what the future is, Pesce is already signed to an incredible long term deal for what he brings, is actually showing the offensive upside that Canes fans hoped for, has played in the top pair for the last 2 seasons, and despite Nylander's ability to "play center", he currently doesn't. He plays RW. Pesce simply plays the more valuable position.

Even with all of this said, I wouldn't trade Pesce for Nylander, even with an add (unless the add was crazy). Not because the value isn't close, but because he simply makes the players around him better and the Canes are benefitting from that.

Markus Nutivaara is signed to a better deal than Brett Pesce and has scored 23 points as a career high to Pesce's 20. Would you regard Nutivaara as more valuable than Brett Pesce? If so, why? If not, why? And in whichever instance, what's the difference measured in assets?

 

[Petrus]

Markus Nutivaara is signed to a better deal than Brett Pesce and has scored 23 points as a career high to Pesce's 20. Would you regard Nutivaara as more valuable than Brett Pesce? If so, why? If not, why? And in whichever instance, what's the difference measured in assets?

Leafs need an RHD that potentially can be paired with Morgs. RHD are scarce commodity. Especially an RHD of Pesce’s calibre.

 

[ITM]

Leafs need an RHD that potentially can be paired with Morgs. RHD are scarce commodity. Especially an RHD of Pesce’s calibre.

As a lifelong Leafs fan, I could probably go toe to toe with most on our year by year need since the early eighties...Well aware of the rarity of an RHD and our need for one.

Here's my gripe...We are not in a state of emergent need for an RHD of questionable value for a de facto young, budding star of Nylander's potential. Two sixty point seasons in a player's first two seasons isn't a normal achievement. All anyone needs to do is run a table for players who score back to back 60 point seasons at Nylander's age. Maybe it's Matthews. Maybe it's Babcock's system...Whatever it is, Nylander has it and moving him for a defenceman whose top season is 20 points and only for a defenceman of his quality is definitionally, reactionary.

Reactionary moves, with the season as young as it is, as successful as we are...But MOST IMPORTANTLY, without knowledge of comparable options that don't and will not cost us William Nylander.

If St. Louis tanks, if San Jose tanks, if the Rangers, Wings, Wild...Panthers...and others perform poorly and position themselves as sellers at the deadline, then at that time, we will be positioned to buy, but buy with assets other than Nylander.

Our window of contention doesn't close in the next two years. Any move with Nylander that gravitates toward trade should be targeted solely on the single most valuable asset or group of most valuable assets we can get for Nylander.

My strong preference is for the first scenario. Ride the regular season success we're enjoying. Make short moves with modest assets to solidify holes on the defense for this year's run and return to the table with Nylander as an asset toward another draft and another free-agent season with a club that much closer to contention.

 

[ookhaab]

 

[Fogelhund]

You know, Pierre should at least have the common decency to give credit to where "his" ideas come from, and acknowledge he's been reading this forum.

 

[Revelation]

Where does Nylander fit in Carolina

Teravainen
Williams
Svechnikov

There's zero reason for them to give up good cost controlled RD for discount Phil Kessel who wants Phil Kessel money when they're already set at RW.

 

[biotk]

To Toronto:

Pesce
Gauthier
Carrick
Van Riemsdyk

To Carolina:

Nylander
Gauthier
Hainsey
(Would have added Carrick and Carrick if they were still part of the Leafs organization)

 

[biotk]

Where does Nylander fit in Carolina

Teravainen
Williams
Svechnikov

There's zero reason for them to give up good cost controlled RD for discount Phil Kessel who wants Phil Kessel money when they're already set at RW.

You don't trade for Nylander unless you plan on using him as a C.

 

[ookhaab]

Where does Nylander fit in Carolina

Teravainen
Williams
Svechnikov

There's zero reason for them to give up good cost controlled RD for discount Phil Kessel who wants Phil Kessel money when they're already set at RW.

Teuvo goes to LW. Projected line up would be something like this.

Ferland - Aho - Nylander
Teräväinen - Staal - Svechnikov
Foegele - Necas - Williams
McGinn - Wallmark - Martinook

Slavin - Hamilton
de Haan - Faulk
Fleury - TVR

And since Necas has been a bit underwhelming, this also gives us an option to send him down before Rask comes back, since Nylander can also play C.

 

[TBF1972]

Two sixty point seasons in a player's first two seasons isn't a normal achievement.

And isn't an achievement of Nylander, either. You can't just throw out the 2015-2016 season just because it doesn't fit your narrative.

 

[Fogelhund]

And isn't an achievement of Nylander, either. You can't just throw out the 2015-2016 season just because it doesn't fit your narrative.

Full seasons... that should be pretty self explanatory, and understood by most, unless it doesn't fit your narrative.

 

[Trapper]

If Carolina wants to move Pesce for Nylander, I'm good with it.

Dollar for dollar, a 9 million dollar Rielly/Pesce pair could be one of the most valuable top pairings in the league. Plenty of money to sign Matthews/Marner.
If you can't win with a forward core of Matthews/Tavares/Marner/Kadri and D of Rielly/Pesce/Dermott, pack up the tent. Fill in with solid complimentary players (which we are developing) and you've got the bases covered.

 

[HoweHullOrr]

Reactionary moves, with the season as young as it is, as successful as we are...But MOST IMPORTANTLY, without knowledge of comparable options that don't and will not cost us William Nylander.

The question that arises here is that given our obvious need for better defenders, we should be asking what our management group has been doing. Do we believe our management group has been active and looking for solutions, or not? There's only two (2) possible answers:

1. Leaf management have NOT been looking for another defender
2. Leaf management has been looking for another defender

#1 is simple. If they have not been looking, then why? What is our strategy? The answer to this question would provide important insight, and might make these silly trade proposals and arguments moot.

#2 is a little more complex. If they have been looking, then one should ask why they haven't found any solutions? Are they incompetent, or are there other factors at work? If there are other factors, perhaps we have to look at market conditions for illumination? Perhaps GMs very rarely trade good (top 4) defenders especially young ones because they are very hard to get -> high demand + very low supply. If this is the case, how many of these trade proposals that we (nation) make are unrealistic and are our judgements off our players' values reflective of the real NHL market?

Please feel free to chime in. Opinions are most welcome. Which of these 2 scenarios are more likely?

 

[janesy12]

And isn't an achievement of Nylander, either. You can't just throw out the 2015-2016 season just because it doesn't fit your narrative.

You mean when he played 22 games? You knew what he meant. This is petty.

 

[Nikishin Go Boom]

Teuvo goes to LW. Projected line up would be something like this.

Ferland - Aho - Nylander
Teräväinen - Staal - Svechnikov
Foegele - Necas - Williams
McGinn - Wallmark - Martinook

Slavin - Hamilton
de Haan - Faulk
Fleury - TVR

And since Necas has been a bit underwhelming, this also gives us an option to send him down before Rask comes back, since Nylander can also play C.

Wait you are a Canes fan and these are the lines are recommended? I ignored it because I thought it was another team’s fan.

#1 we aren’t breaking up the Turbo AF line
#2 Nylander would only play center on this squad. Why else would we move Pesce (which we wont).

Turbo AF
McGinn-Staal-Williams
Foegele-Nylander-Svech
Martinook-Wallmark-Z

Understand we don’t play a traditional line set. Just because Nylander is labeled as the 3rd line center doesn’t mean he’ll be the checking line or play 3rd line minutes.

 

[CanesUltimate11]

Wait you are a Canes fan and these are the lines are recommended? I ignored it because I thought it was another team’s fan.

#1 we aren’t breaking up the Turbo AF line
#2 Nylander would only play center on this squad. Why else would we move Pesce (which we wont).

Turbo AF
McGinn-Staal-Williams
Foegele-Nylander-Svech
Martinook-Wallmark-Z

Understand we don’t play a traditional line set. Just because Nylander is labeled as the 3rd line center doesn’t mean he’ll be the checking line or play 3rd line minutes.

They also wouldn't break up the Foegele-Staal-Williams line so switch Foegele and McGinn I think.

Foegele-Staal-Williams
McGinn-Nylander-Svech

 

[SlavinAway]

They also wouldn't break up the Foegele-Staal-Williams line so switch Foegele and McGinn I think.

Foegele-Staal-Williams
McGinn-Nylander-Svech

I think in this scenario they would. Staal's line would not be needed to score as much and Foegele would be better used on a fast/skilled line with Nylander and Svech than McGinn would.