Player Discussion: Brayden Point - Part 3

[DMB06]

What kind of relationship does Kucherov have with the franchise?

Oh right a good one.

How's Nylander with the leafs? Oh he's penciled in on their 1st line?

A few examples doesn't change what I said. We both know if I wanted to start providing names of professional athletes who held out for more money and ended up with another team it would be a very lengthy list. Each situation is different, obviously, but I can assure you our front office didn't want it to get to this point and there's a reason for that.

 

[DFC]

A few examples doesn't change what I said. We both know if I wanted to start providing names of professional athletes who held out for more money and ended up with another team it would be a very lengthy list. Each situation is different, obviously, but I can assure you our front office didn't want it to get to this point and there's a reason for that.

That's not true. If our front office didn't want it to get to this point they wouldn't have offered less money than Brock Boeser took. JBB knew it would get to this point. His offer says that much.

 

[CupsOverCash]

Ok lets go back to this, JBB doesn't budge, Point demends a trade, now his value just tanked and any chance of a "steal" return that "puts us over the top" just tanked as well. If at any point JBB has forced Points side into a trade demand, he's lost the situation and completely blown it, I'm not sure how you could think otherwise.

Now instead the worse case scenario of Point staying where Point gets a huge contract, costs us a secondary player but stays on the team you now have to trade an unsigned 92 point center for pennies on the dollar.


.

If Point request a trade then yea I think we are screwed in getting back a fair return. My point was that you hope those pieces can come in and help the team win a cup. Because at this point its the only hope you have. I was just laying out the possibilities that seem to be on the table and Im not in anyway shape or form saying we should trade Point. I was saying what I would hope would happen in the worst case scenario. Yea most likely we would be a worse team without him but I dont think JBB wouldnt be able to get something back that helps the team win. We went to the finals without him and we went to another ECF without him. I understand he is our best center but we went to the ECF without Stamkos and Point. Im not saying we will do that again but this idea that the team is doomed without him I think is a little bit bogus. Thus this is the reason why JBB hasnt budged yet. You guys make it sound like without Point this team is a lottery team. I dont buy that. I understand what we would be losing by trading him but at the same time, I dont think its the end of the world if we have to. With that said, I dont think we will trade him. Again, was just laying out the different possibilities.

 

[CupsOverCash]

What you do is you budge.

Look, if it comes out that Point's asking for Marner money, the situation changes. We have no reason to believe that's the case. We don't know what our offer is right now. We only know that the offer still on the table as of last week was absurdly low, and it's no wonder why Point hasn't signed.

I don't mind the tactic because I think this is JBB's strategy to keep Point under 8m, and that's best for the team. But let's not be like, "Well, he won't take 6.5, gotta move him."

This guy single-handedly extends our window as much as half a decade. Without him, we have a gaping hole at center the moment Stamkos can't handle #1 duty. And Stamkos will be 30 before the end of this year. I think some of us are underestimating just how difficult it is to find a legit #1C in this league. They usually don't come in the 3rd round. And, even when they do, you have to hope you're the team that nabs them.

We've drafted two #1 centers in a little over a decade. And we needed a #1 pick to get one of them.



The only player who "bought in" to a massive discount as an RFA was Kucherov. That's it. Johnson and Palat got more than anybody was expecting. Vasy got 3.5 as a back-up.

Discounts come on the UFA contracts. People talk about taxes all the time, but they neglect to acknowledge how much NTCs and NMCs come into play. We exchanged those for lower AAVs. We don't have the ability to do that with Point, same as the RFAs before him. Kucherov's discount was also a very unique circumstance where we gave a chunk of his money to Killorn to avoid arbitration. It's hard to use that deal as a comparable for anybody in the league. It would be like using San Jose's Lebanc deal as a comparable (which Hose has successfully done).



Can he be replaced? Sure. Do we have the pieces to replace him right now? Not even close. We trade him for D, and yeah, we have strong D, but at C we go from probably the best center depth in the league to just barely above average. Point is that difference, and, as I said before, the situation gets worse as Stamkos ages. We would be two years away from Stamkos and Johnson, both past 30, being our top-2 centers, with Stamkos, 32 by playoff time, as the #1. Now compare that to a 25 year-old Point as the #1 and a 32 year-old Stamkos as the #2. Huge, huge difference.

Let's not forget, even if we traded Point, we'd have to get those players under cap too. So it's not like we'd be trading him for an 8m defenseman, which is about where his trade value is.

I dont want to move him and I dont think we should. Just think its possible that because we have been low balling him that he could request a trade. Its certainly a possibility. We have to be ready for that possibility.

 

[DFC]

If Point request a trade then yea I think we are screwed in getting back a fair return. My point was that you hope those pieces can come in and help the team win a cup. Because at this point its the only hope you have. I was just laying out the possibilities that seem to be on the table and Im not in anyway shape or form saying we should trade Point. I was saying what I would hope would happen in the worst case scenario. Yea most likely we would be a worse team without him but I dont think JBB wouldnt be able to get something back that helps the team win. We went to the finals without him and we went to another ECF without him. I understand he is our best center but we went to the ECF without Stamkos and Point. Im not saying we will do that again but this idea that the team is doomed without him I think is a little bit bogus. Thus this is the reason why JBB hasnt budged yet. You guys make it sound like without Point this team is a lottery team. I dont buy that. I understand what we would be losing by trading him but at the same time, I dont think its the end of the world if we have to. With that said, I dont think we will trade him. Again, was just laying out the different possibilities.

First, the East is a lot stronger now than in 2015.

Second, we wouldn't be a lottery team without Point, but we'd be worse than we are now. Significantly so. There's no way use 8.5 in space in a way that helps us win more than using it on Point. That's not to say we're going to hand him the entire 8.5. It's just saying, players ask for money in 2019. So any player coming back is going to want some money too. I'd rather bet on Point getting us the best value out of that money instead of pretty much anybody else.

 

[DFC]

I dont want to move him and I dont think we should. Just think its possible that because we have been low balling him that he could request a trade. Its certainly a possibility. We have to be ready for that possibility.

Low-balling him only suggests that JBB is comfortable letting this thing unfold slowly. If we max out our offer and Point is still not budging, it's a different situation. But, last we heard, there's still roughly 2.8m to negotiate with. Point's side knows this. If they wanted more than that, they could have invited offer sheets. They didn't.

If the choice is concrete between signing Point for 8.5 or trading him, we sign him. Because it's impossible to get more value out of 8.5 without overhauling the team. But I doubt it ever gets to the point where we even need to consider THAT choice, let alone trading him. Trading him is a disaster.

 

[CupsOverCash]

First, the East is a lot stronger now than in 2015.

Second, we wouldn't be a lottery team without Point, but we'd be worse than we are now. Significantly so. There's no way use 8.5 in space in a way that helps us win more than using it on Point. That's not to say we're going to hand him the entire 8.5. It's just saying, players ask for money in 2019. So any player coming back is going to want some money too. I'd rather bet on Point getting us the best value out of that money instead of pretty much anybody else.

I was being a little extreme with the lottery team but I think I would need to see what the return was before I completely wrote off our chances. Maybe Im being unrealistic but a guy can hope for the best, even in the worst case scenario.

 

[CupsOverCash]

Low-balling him only suggests that JBB is comfortable letting this thing unfold slowly. If we max out our offer and Point is still not budging, it's a different situation. But, last we heard, there's still roughly 2.8m to negotiate with. Point's side knows this. If they wanted more than that, they could have invited offer sheets. They didn't.

If the choice is concrete between signing Point for 8.5 or trading him, we sign him. Because it's impossible to get more value out of 8.5 without overhauling the team. But I doubt it ever gets to the point where we even need to consider THAT choice, let alone trading him. Trading him is a disaster.

I dont disagree with that. My "scenario" was saying that if he wants more than what we can give, what do we do? At that point the choice is to let him sit, trade him, or budge. Who do we move to keep him? Most guys are on NTC. What do we move a few other ELC players to add up to whatever he is asking for? Not good situation either. I guess yea its better to keep him than move on from those player(s) but it still hurts the team and we need to be ready for that possibility as well.

 

[Sky04]

I dont disagree with that. My "scenario" was saying that if he wants more than what we can give, what do we do? At that point the choice is to let him sit, trade him, or budge. Who do we move to keep him? Most guys are on NTC. What do we move a few other ELC players to add up to whatever he is asking for? Not good situation either. I guess yea its better to keep him than move on from those player(s) but it still hurts the team and we need to be ready for that possibility as well.

Do you honestly believe their side doesn't know what type of cap situation the Lightning are in? They won't be demanding 11m when they know full well the Lightning can't give it. The most likely scenario is that the Lightning aren't budging and JBB stringing that low ball offer for as long as he can hoping for a bite.

I think the likely scenarios are:

JBB: 5.7m x 3years bridge
Points counter is 8m x 3 year bridge

JBB says they can do 8m but would need 8 year term. Points team won't except a longterm deal for that price and the Lightning don't have the cap for a higher price at the moment. JBB is holding pat on a lowball bridge or long term deal, a long term deal doesn't make sense from Point's side so the biggest thing holding this back is the value of the bridge deal. I can see JBB's reason for not wanting to blow out his remaining cap on a bridge deal and I can see Point's for not taking a deal that pays him less than Brock Boeser.

 

[Fabiobest]

I've read your message and I've noticed you're talking about be better/worse and competitive after an eventual trade of Point.
We cannot answer to that question only for one reason.
We don't know who will come to Tampa and who will play with us.
I think also it's hard (but interesting at the same time) to do some hypotesis about what we'll have in return in the eventual Point trade.

 

[CupsOverCash]

Do you honestly believe their side doesn't know what type of cap situation the Lightning are in? They won't be demanding 11m when they know full well the Lightning can't give it. The most likely scenario is that the Lightning aren't budging and JBB stringing that low ball offer for as long as he can hoping for a bite.

Hypothetical. I dont think he is asking for more than we have but some other players that arent as good as him got paid more than we are talking Point should get. So its possible that he is and thats why we havent budged from the low ball. All I have been doing in the recent posts have been talking about what could happen. Not what I think WILL happen.

 

[Sky04]

I've read your message and I've noticed you're talking about be better/worse and competitive after an eventual trade of Point.
We cannot answer to that question only for one reason.
We don't know who will come to Tampa and who will play with us.
I think also it's hard (but interesting at the same time) to do some hypotesis about what we'll have in return in the eventual Point trade.

Sure, I'm down for hypotheticals any day except if you're going to propose them throw out an example, names and situations of players being available that meet our cap requirement or team needs.

Don't just say "maybe " and "I don't know" but "possibly."

I mean that's like starting a thread and saying "maybe we should explore trading Kucherov?" who knows what we could get back but it could possibly be a cup winning move?

 

[CupsOverCash]

Sure, I'm down for hypotheticals any day except if you're going to propose them throw out an example, names and situations of players being available that meet our cap requirement or team needs.

Don't just say "maybe " and "I don't know" but "possibly."

I mean that's like starting a thread and saying "maybe we should explore trading Kucherov?" who knows what we could get back but it could possibly be a cup winning move?

I was just being optimistic about the worst case scenario. How about you just forget what I wrote because it obviously didnt live up to your expectations.

 

[CupsOverCash]

I've read your message and I've noticed you're talking about be better/worse and competitive after an eventual trade of Point.
We cannot answer to that question only for one reason.
We don't know who will come to Tampa and who will play with us.
I think also it's hard (but interesting at the same time) to do some hypotesis about what we'll have in return in the eventual Point trade.

Exactly. Its not easy to know who we would trade for or who would even be available.

 

[DFC]

Exactly. Its not easy to know who we would trade for or who would even be available.

We know what money we have left, and we know that 8.5m doesn't stretch as far as it used to. Our best chance to get value out of that money is to as spend as much as we need to on Point.

 

[CupsOverCash]

We know what money we have left, and we know that 8.5m doesn't stretch as far as it used to. Our best chance to get value out of that money is to as spend as much as we need to on Point.

I just hope it doesnt get to that place where we have to trade him. I know I was being optimistic about possibly finding a trade that works for us but I dont want to have to find out. Nobody here does.

 

[Fabiobest]

Exactly. Its not easy to know who we would trade for or who would even be available.

Also because in the NHL there're good and bad GM (like in every league in the world).
Maybe BB will bring to Tampa a guys better than Point (Brayden is very good I hope he'll stay with us for many years. But he's not Gretzky...).
Also the players and the agents. How many time have we seen agents and players that one day think 1 thing and the day after change their opinion?
I can do tons of examples that maybe are absurd but, the situation can change.

 

[Master P]

I just hope it doesnt get to that place where we have to trade him. I know I was being optimistic about possibly finding a trade that works for us but I dont want to have to find out. Nobody here does.

Its an interesting thought though.

 

[Flat Ronnie]

Eff this guy!


Am I right?! Huh?!

 

[Byrddog]

The abrupt placing Domingue and Condon on waivers makes me wonder if this is an attempt to clear that cap for the impending long term signing of Point.

 

[The Macho King]

The abrupt placing Domingue and Condon on waivers makes me wonder if this is an attempt to clear that cap for the impending long term signing of Point.

Also no reason to keep them longer. Them getting claimed would be good for us generally.

 

[Byrddog]

Also no reason to keep them longer. Them getting claimed would be good for us generally.

Yes we will also gain more cap when the decisions are made on defense.

 

[DMB06]

That's not true. If our front office didn't want it to get to this point they wouldn't have offered less money than Brock Boeser took. JBB knew it would get to this point. His offer says that much.

You're essentially saying JBB made an offer he wanted Point to refuse, which is quite a strange thing to say. And by strange I mean objectively false.

JBB was hoping Point would understand the situation he's in and accept an offer both sides knew was below market value. You only make contract offers you want the player to refuse if you don't want them on your team. There are no other situations this occurs.

 

[OurlordAndSaviorKuch]

Just trade Johnson and give Point the same long term contract as kuch

 

[Todd1a]

Eff this guy!


Am I right?! Huh?!

Waited long enough Brayden