Player Discussion: Brayden Point - Part 3

[Sky04]

What kind of relationship do you think he's going to have with the franchise if it takes until late November to get things worked out? His agent is saying they aren't close, and considering he still isn't signed that's not just agent speak, it's reality. If this carries on for another couple of months the relationship is going to be pretty bad. We don't seem like we're going to budge, and Point doesn't either. This type of scenario has led to players leaving many, many times across all professional leagues. As confused as you appear to be about my take, I'm equally confused about yours given this fact.

What kind of relationship does Kucherov have with the franchise?

Oh right a good one.

How's Nylander with the leafs? Oh he's penciled in on their 1st line?

 

[Sky04]

Yes and it's vitally important going forward for JBB to hold firm to the team based concept. If he caves on Point-even if you make the argument he's an exception--you are in trouble negotiating going forward.

Season doesn't start for 2 more weeks. I won't start to get nervous until mid October.

He already "caved" on Vasi's contract...

 

[DistantThunderRep]

What kind of relationship do you think he's going to have with the franchise if it takes until late November to get things worked out? His agent is saying they aren't close, and considering he still isn't signed that's not just agent speak, it's reality. If this carries on for another couple of months the relationship is going to be pretty bad. We don't seem like we're going to budge, and Point doesn't either. This type of scenario has led to players leaving many, many times across all professional leagues. As confused as you appear to be about my take, I'm equally confused about yours given this fact.

There is zero precedent with the organization with this. Our 3 troublemakers all got moved because of their personality. Drouin, DeAngelo, and Dotchin...wait we really have problems with players names who start with "D".

 

[CupsOverCash]

Im at the "point" now where Im just going to accept the possible outcomes. Either he signs here soon or he holds out into the season and if he doesnt come back soon after that will likely just be traded. I know Point is a great player but we could probably trade him for a good piece or two that maybe could put us over the top. I dont see the Lightning budging very much because next summer will be tough too. I dont know how Point feels about the internal structure but we will know soon if he holds out into the season.

 

[Todd1a]

Im at the "point" now where Im just going to accept the possible outcomes. Either he signs here soon or he holds out into the season and if he doesnt come back soon after that will likely just be traded. I know Point is a great player but we could probably trade him for a good piece or two that maybe could put us over the top. I dont see the Lightning budging very much because next summer will be tough too. I dont know how Point feels about the internal structure but we will know soon if he holds out into the season.

I could understand him waiting earlier in the summer but our salary cap space is what it is now! After we moved Callahan and deal should have been signed. Tampa is not giving point 9-10 million per season if he wants that he will need to be traded. Our numbers are what they are at this point. I mean we are not giving this guy a 3 year deal for 8.4 avv. The 3 year deal should be between 6-7 million per year. I’m not for trading him just let him sit out until he get reasonable! I thought it would be right now but oh well!

 

[Lord Stan 2020]

well per source i like believe etc.. brayden point is 100% ready to play hopefully this is a dom movement thing holdup and we can move forward soon .... so hoping dom is gobbled up today myself

 

[Todd1a]

well per source i like believe etc.. brayden point is 100% ready to play hopefully this is a dom movement thing holdup and we can move forward soon .... so hoping dom is gobbled up today myself

THats good if he is healthy man I was worried he was not I know when Callahan got hip surgery it was 4-6 months. Dom wouldn’t mean a thing man it would only save us 75 k on the cap . I wish someone would take condon lol

 

[DFC]

Im at the "point" now where Im just going to accept the possible outcomes. Either he signs here soon or he holds out into the season and if he doesnt come back soon after that will likely just be traded. I know Point is a great player but we could probably trade him for a good piece or two that maybe could put us over the top. I dont see the Lightning budging very much because next summer will be tough too. I dont know how Point feels about the internal structure but we will know soon if he holds out into the season.

I think we're underestimating the hole in the roster it would leave to lose him. Center is the most important position in the game, and having a 1-2 of Stamkos-Point puts us closer than any combination of wingers and second pairing D would. And that's just for now, in the future, as Stamkos ages, it gets worse.

Stamkos/Point >>> Stamkos/Johnson or Cirelli. I know we all like Cirelli right now, but he's the shiny new toy. He's not gonna step in and be Point.

 

[Todd1a]

I think we're underestimating the hole in the roster it would leave to lose him. Center is the most important position in the game, and having a 1-2 of Stamkos-Point puts us closer than any combination of wingers and second pairing D would. And that's just for now, in the future, as Stamkos ages, it gets worse.

Stamkos/Point >>> Stamkos/Johnson or Cirelli. I know we all like Cirelli right now, but he's the shiny new toy. He's not gonna step in and be Point.

Well October 3rd he might have too

 

[Sky04]

Im at the "point" now where Im just going to accept the possible outcomes. Either he signs here soon or he holds out into the season and if he doesnt come back soon after that will likely just be traded. I know Point is a great player but we could probably trade him for a good piece or two that maybe could put us over the top. I dont see the Lightning budging very much because next summer will be tough too. I dont know how Point feels about the internal structure but we will know soon if he holds out into the season.

This doesn't make sense, there are no 2 pieces we'd get back in a trade that would "put us over the top." We just lost Miller in the off-season that's a top-6 winger down from last season already, losing a 90 point center 2 way center makes us considerably worse., What 2 pieces do you realistically think can fill that? Cause the return is more likely quantity than any quality. There's 8m left in the cap, and people would rather fill it for 2 4m players than Brayden point?

 

[CupsOverCash]

I think we're underestimating the hole in the roster it would leave to lose him. Center is the most important position in the game, and having a 1-2 of Stamkos-Point puts us closer than any combination of wingers and second pairing D would. And that's just for now, in the future, as Stamkos ages, it gets worse.

Stamkos/Point >>> Stamkos/Johnson or Cirelli. I know we all like Cirelli right now, but he's the shiny new toy. He's not gonna step in and be Point.

I understand that but what do you do if he doesn't buy into the structure and the Lightning dont budge? Your left with no choice but to trade him. I also understand how that could set us back but again what do you do if he doesn't want to buy in like the previous players did? When the Lightning set this up they had to know that it could happen when a player isnt buying into it. So if it gets to that place we may have to trade him. Maybe in that trade he could bring back a player or two who can help us win in the playoffs.

Point is super important to the team but he can be replaced. Not in the production he makes but in ways to help the team win and we arent hurting in talent. I dont want to lose him at all, I'm just preparing myself for that possibility.

 

[Sky04]

I think we're underestimating the hole in the roster it would leave to lose him. Center is the most important position in the game, and having a 1-2 of Stamkos-Point puts us closer than any combination of wingers and second pairing D would. And that's just for now, in the future, as Stamkos ages, it gets worse.

Stamkos/Point >>> Stamkos/Johnson or Cirelli. I know we all like Cirelli right now, but he's the shiny new toy. He's not gonna step in and be Point.

No kidding, anyone with the "trade Point" mentality is incredibly short sighted, anyone forget that Stamkos didn't even match up against top-lines regularly last season or what?

 

[Sky04]

I understand that but what do you do if he doesn't buy into the structure and the Lightning dont budge? Your left with no choice but to trade him. I also understand how that could set us back but again what do you do if he doesn't want to buy in like the previous players did? When the Lightning set this up they had to know that it could happen when a player isnt buying into it. So if it gets to that place we may have to trade him. Maybe in that trade he could bring back a player or two who can help us win in the playoffs.

Point is super important to the team but he can be replaced. Not in the production he makes but in ways to help the team win and we arent hurting in talent. I dont want to lose him at all, I'm just preparing myself for that possibility.

People are throwing this term all over the place, "buying-in" doesn't mean take a low ball offer and screw yourself. Just because Toronto overpaid their guys doesn't mean they made their team worse, it hurts their flexibility - they're still going to be an elite team.

We aren't "hurting in talent" when you have Point on the team, you are when he's off and Johnson and Cirelli go in to replace him, who is the pool has #1C potential within the next 3 years?

We had a deeper pool of prospects when Kucherov was holding out, imagine saying "we should trade him, we have so many replacements" back then.

 

[CupsOverCash]

This doesn't make sense, there are no 2 pieces we'd get back in a trade that would "put us over the top." We just lost Miller in the off-season that's a top-6 winger down from last season already, losing a 90 point center 2 way center makes us considerably worse., What 2 pieces do you realistically think can fill that? Cause the return is more likely quantity than any quality. There's 8m left in the cap, and people would rather fill it for 2 4m players than Brayden point?

My point is that MAYBE it can. I dont know who but its certainly possible that the player(s) we bring back in the trade that could help us win in the playoffs and get over the hump. If I had to bet no but optimistically speaking that would be ideal if we had to go that route. Again I dont want to trade him but if we have to maybe we can bring in a player or two who helps us win in the playoffs. I don't know what's wrong with that take?

 

[DFC]

I understand that but what do you do if he doesn't buy into the structure and the Lightning dont budge?

What you do is you budge.

Look, if it comes out that Point's asking for Marner money, the situation changes. We have no reason to believe that's the case. We don't know what our offer is right now. We only know that the offer still on the table as of last week was absurdly low, and it's no wonder why Point hasn't signed.

I don't mind the tactic because I think this is JBB's strategy to keep Point under 8m, and that's best for the team. But let's not be like, "Well, he won't take 6.5, gotta move him."

This guy single-handedly extends our window as much as half a decade. Without him, we have a gaping hole at center the moment Stamkos can't handle #1 duty. And Stamkos will be 30 before the end of this year. I think some of us are underestimating just how difficult it is to find a legit #1C in this league. They usually don't come in the 3rd round. And, even when they do, you have to hope you're the team that nabs them.

We've drafted two #1 centers in a little over a decade. And we needed a #1 pick to get one of them.

Your left with no choice but to trade him. I also understand how that could set us back but again what do you do if he doesn't want to buy in like the previous players did? When the Lightning set this up they had to know that it could happen when a player isnt buying into it. So if it gets to that place we may have to trade him. Maybe in that trade he could bring back a player or two who can help us win in the playoffs.

The only player who "bought in" to a massive discount as an RFA was Kucherov. That's it. Johnson and Palat got more than anybody was expecting. Vasy got 3.5 as a back-up.

Discounts come on the UFA contracts. People talk about taxes all the time, but they neglect to acknowledge how much NTCs and NMCs come into play. We exchanged those for lower AAVs. We don't have the ability to do that with Point, same as the RFAs before him. Kucherov's discount was also a very unique circumstance where we gave a chunk of his money to Killorn to avoid arbitration. It's hard to use that deal as a comparable for anybody in the league. It would be like using San Jose's Lebanc deal as a comparable (which Hose has successfully done).

Point is super important to the team but he can be replaced. Not in the production he makes but in ways to help the team win and we arent hurting in talent. I dont want to lose him at all, I'm just preparing myself for that possibility.

Can he be replaced? Sure. Do we have the pieces to replace him right now? Not even close. We trade him for D, and yeah, we have strong D, but at C we go from probably the best center depth in the league to just barely above average. Point is that difference, and, as I said before, the situation gets worse as Stamkos ages. We would be two years away from Stamkos and Johnson, both past 30, being our top-2 centers, with Stamkos, 32 by playoff time, as the #1. Now compare that to a 25 year-old Point as the #1 and a 32 year-old Stamkos as the #2. Huge, huge difference.

Let's not forget, even if we traded Point, we'd have to get those players under cap too. So it's not like we'd be trading him for an 8m defenseman, which is about where his trade value is.

 

[CupsOverCash]

People are throwing this term all over the place, "buying-in" doesn't mean take a low ball offer and screw yourself. Just because Toronto overpaid their guys doesn't mean they made their team worse, it hurts their flexibility - they're still going to be an elite team.

We aren't "hurting in talent" when you have Point on the team, you are when he's off and Johnson and Cirelli go in to replace him, who is the pool has #1C potential within the next 3 years?

We had a deeper pool of prospects when Kucherov was holding out, imagine saying "we should trade him back then, we have so many replacements" back then.

I never said he should just take the low ball deal.

 

[Byrddog]

I think we're underestimating the hole in the roster it would leave to lose him. Center is the most important position in the game, and having a 1-2 of Stamkos-Point puts us closer than any combination of wingers and second pairing D would. And that's just for now, in the future, as Stamkos ages, it gets worse.

Stamkos/Point >>> Stamkos/Johnson or Cirelli. I know we all like Cirelli right now, but he's the shiny new toy. He's not gonna step in and be Point.

I do not get why so many like Cirelli he has not shown he could step into the top 6 and center a line. Then again just remember many here wanting Point sent back down not too long ago. If point holds out and Cirelli is bumped up we will see but im not sure I want to see what it looks like.

 

[DFC]

I do not get why so many like Cirelli he has not shown he could step into the top 6 and center a line. Then again just remember many here wanting Point sent back down not too long ago. If point holds out and Cirelli is bumped up we will see but im not sure I want to see what it looks like.

I get why people like him. But we often over-estimate a player's ability to constantly improve. The shine wears off over the time, and we end up seeing warts on everybody's game, and then a lot of times people will use those warts to devalue the player in general. We've seen that a bit with Point's slump being used against him, as if it means he didn't still end up with 92 points. He was on pace for well over a hundred before that happened, and it may have been injury related.

 

[Sky04]

My point is that MAYBE it can. I dont know who but its certainly possible that the player(s) we bring back in the trade that could help us win in the playoffs and get over the hump. If I had to bet no but optimistically speaking that would be ideal if we had to go that route. Again I dont want to trade him but if we have to maybe we can bring in a player or two who helps us win in the playoffs. I don't know what's wrong with that take?

It's your scenario, I'm asking you to lay it out for me, not give "maybe, maybe, possibility" that's like saying we could trade Point for 2 first round picks and that pick be might be the next Connor McDavid so we should really consider it.

The only way we get better without Point is to get a player BETTER than Point, bring in a player that's better AND cheaper than him or have 2 or more sum pieces that are better than Point while staying under the remaining 8m that we won't pay to Point, how realistic is that?

 

[CupsOverCash]

Look, I dont want to trade him but the possibility is there guys. If JBB doesn't budge he might just ask for a trade. You guys are right we need him if we want to win the cup or go far so that gives him more leverage than many think. So if the Lightning dont budge this is a very real possibility. I think its possible that JBB doesn't budge.

 

[CupsOverCash]

It's your scenario, I'm asking you to lay it out for me, not give "maybe, maybe, possibility" that's like saying we could trade Point for 2 first round picks and that pick be might be the next Connor McDavid so we should really consider it.

The only way we get better without Point is to get a player BETTER than Point, bring in a player that's better AND cheaper than him or have 2 or more sum pieces that are better than Point while staying under the remaining 8m that we won't pay to Point, how realistic is that?

I just said it's not very likely we find a better player but at that point when you have to trade him you hope that's the case. I think that possibility is very real that we have to trade him and we better hope we get a player back who can help us get over the hump. Not likely and worst case scenario.

 

[DFC]

It's your scenario, I'm asking you to lay it out for me, not give "maybe, maybe, possibility" that's like saying we could trade Point for 2 first round picks and that pick be might be the next Connor McDavid so we should really consider it.

The only way we get better without Point is to get a player BETTER than Point, bring in a player that's better AND cheaper than him or have 2 or more sum pieces that are better than Point while staying under the remaining 8m that we won't pay to Point, how realistic is that?

Bolded is key, and more/less impossible to find.

JBB knows all of this though. We're just in the staring contest now.

 

[DFC]

I just said it's not very likely we find a better player but at that point when you have to trade him you hope that's the case. I think that possibility is very real that we have to trade him and we better hope we get a player back who can help us get over the hump. Not likely and worst case scenario.

This is a scenario where Point is asking for the moon. We have no information that suggests that. What information we have is JBB has a lot more room to up his offer, but just hasn't yet. Until we get beyond that step, the decision is between upping the offer and trading him, and that's an easy decision to make.

Of all the players we might lose next year to a cap crunch, not a single one is as important as Point, or even all that close.

 

[Sky04]

Look, I dont want to trade him but the possibility is there guys. If JBB doesn't budge he might just ask for a trade. You guys are right we need him if we want to win the cup or go far so that gives him more leverage than many think. So if the Lightning dont budge this is a very real possibility. I think its possible that JBB doesn't budge.

Ok lets go back to this, JBB doesn't budge, Point demends a trade, now his value just tanked and any chance of a "steal" return that "puts us over the top" just tanked as well. If at any point JBB has forced Points side into a trade demand, he's lost the situation and completely blown it, I'm not sure how you could think otherwise.

Now instead the worse case scenario of Point staying where Point gets a huge contract, costs us a secondary player but stays on the team you now have to trade an unsigned 92 point center for pennies on the dollar.


.

 

[Sky04]

Bolded is key, and more/less impossible to find.

JBB knows all of this though. We're just in the staring contest now.

I mean you just need to convince a team to sell a superstar forward on their ELC in order to take Point and 8+ in capspace. That or convince Colorado to trade us Nathan Mackinnon.