Bratt & J. Hughes or B.Tkachuk & Stutzle?

[bert]

Except there are no trends.

Size

Hits

Fights

Penalties.

Any countable metric for "physicality" or "hard to play against" has shown to have 0 correlation with winning.

But when you start pretending every team that wins is a physical beast retroactively, it's a different story. Like pretending 5 foot 8 kucherov is some physical monster.

If NJD wins the cup I'm sure you'll be quick to throw credit to Meier, Dillon, Noesen, etc. And talk about how Bratt, Hischier, and Hughes were actually tough all along

I mean if you have no idea what you are looking at sure. Teams that take up time and space while winning one on one battles always go deep. But you think hockey is a calculation you simply dont have the ability to see it by your responses.

 

[bert]

If Physicality was so great then the Senators wouldn't be at the bottom of the league.

Do you not even think of what the counter argument will be when you post? because that was spectacularly easy.

Ottawa has been one of the easiest teams to play against in the league for years. Their D core specifically is very bad at holding the blue line, breaking up the cycle and getting the puck out controlled. They do not limit time and space for the opposition at all, the gaps between the forwards and D men has been terrible. They dont play with an edge its an easy night against them, teams must salivate at last years D core to play against.

I am capable of not only understanding what I am watching but evaluating my team with accuracy. You should try it.

I actually have no idea what Ottawa has to do with this discussion other than Stutzle and Tkachuk are individual players that play for them that do push the pace and play with physicality. That doesnt mean as a team they do it.

But these are the type of sad reaches I have seen from you guys throughout this thread. I cant help it if you're in denial about the team you cheer for. They are what they are. Fitzgerald is making them harder to play against whether its being physical or limiting time and space because he played hockey and he knows how the game is played. Unlike these spreadsheet arguments that hold no water without context. Eye test first advanced analytics second. Hockey is a physical emotional compete sport. Its not baseball with isolated one on one scenarios.

He has gone after players like Palat Cotter Pesce to try and do what I am suggesting. I think he's doing a great job. I think Jersey is a really good team and should contend.

 

[dgibb10]

I mean if you have no idea what you are looking at sure. Teams that take up time and space while winning one on one battles always go deep. But you think hockey is a calculation you simply dont have the ability to see it by your responses.

Teams that outshoot, outpossess, and outchance their opponents in fact actually consistently dominate*

Hence why teams ranked 1st and 2nd in the league in xGoals share met up in the finals.

The oilers are not a particularly physical team at all and yet made the finals?

You are driven by narratives, and as so blatantly evidenced by the claim that Kucherov is a physical player, you will lie to yourself in an attempt to reenforce those narratives.

Ottawa has been one of the easiest teams to play against in the league for years. Their D core specifically is very bad at holding the blue line, breaking up the cycle and getting the puck out controlled. They do not limit time and space for the opposition at all, the gaps between the forwards and D men has been terrible. They dont play with an edge its an easy night against them, teams must salivate at last years D core to play against.

I am capable of not only understanding what I am watching but evaluating my team with accuracy. You should try it.

I actually have no idea what Ottawa has to do with this discussion other than Stutzle and Tkachuk are individual players that play for them that do push the pace and play with physicality. That doesnt mean as a team they do it.

But these are the type of sad reaches I have seen from you guys throughout this thread. I cant help it if you're in denial about the team you cheer for. They are what they are. Fitzgerald is trying to make them harder to play against whether its being physical or limiting time and space because he played hockey and he knows how the game is played. Unlike you spreadsheet heroes.

Physicality is when teams win hockey games.

Apparently gap control is now physicality lmao.

FYI, you can limit time and space with speed and positioning as well.

 

[bert]

Teams that outshoot, outpossess, and outchance their opponents in fact actually consistently dominate*

Hence why teams ranked 1st and 2nd in the league in xGoals share met up in the finals.

The oilers are not a particularly physical team at all and yet made the finals?

You are driven by narratives, and as so blatantly evidenced by the claim that Kucherov is a physical player, you will lie to yourself in an attempt to reenforce those narratives.


Physicality is when teams win hockey games.

Apparently gap control is now physicality lmao.

FYI, you can limit time and space with speed and positioning as well.

Yes teams that outshoot, out poses and outchance their opponents win. But what you dont understand is how and why thats happening. You also left out a critical part of the teams that win in the playoffs. They get to the middle of the ice, they get sticks on pucks defensively and offensively, they win one on on battles. Your calculations dont show the entire story, you actually have to know what you are watching to truly evaluate. You have shown absolutely nothing in your arguments that you know what you are watching. Its cherry picked advanced analytics. If that was the be all and end all why has New Jersey had such little success. Have you been following hockey long enough to watch the team you cheer for in the 90's and early 2000's? I truly would be shocked if you said yes as those teams won games exactly how I am describing but the concept is so foreign to you.

Didnt say the bolded again another pathetic claim. I said he makes space for himself with his stick, if you dont know what that means either just please exit the discussion.

 

[Xirik]

Yes teams that outshoot, out poses and outchance their opponents win. But what you dont understand is how and why thats happening. You also left out a critical part of the teams that win in the playoffs. They get to the middle of the ice, they get sticks on pucks defensively and offensively, they win one on on battles. Your calculations dont show the entire story, you actually have to know what you are watching to truly evaluate. You have shown absolutely nothing in your arguments that you know what you are watching. Its cherry picked advanced analytics. If that was the be all and end all why has New Jersey had such little success. Have you been following hockey long enough to watch the team you cheer for in the 90's and early 2000's? I truly would be shocked if you said yes as those teams won games exactly how I am describing but the concept is so foreign to you.

Didnt say the bolded again another pathetic claim. I said he makes space for himself with his stick, if you dont know what that means either just please exit the discussion.

You think the game is played the same way as it was in the 90's and 2000's?

 

[dgibb10]

Yes teams that outshoot, out poses and outchance their opponents win. But what you dont understand is how and why thats happening. You also left out a critical part of the teams that win in the playoffs. They get to the middle of the ice, they get sticks on pucks defensively and offensively, they win one on on battles. Your calculations dont show the entire story, you actually have to know what you are watching to truly evaluate. You have shown absolutely nothing in your arguments that you know what you are watching. Its cherry picked advanced analytics. If that was the be all and end all why has New Jersey had such little success. Have you been following hockey long enough to watch the team you cheer for in the 90's and early 2000's? I truly would be shocked if you said yes as those teams won games exactly how I am describing but the concept is so foreign to you.

Didnt say the bolded again another pathetic claim. I said he makes space for himself with his stick, if you dont know what that means either just please exit the discussion.

You have twisted your definitions so far up your own ass you don't even know what you are saying.

First it was:

you need to be more physical

then it's not actually physicality but stickwork.

Then it's f***ing gap control and defensive positioning lmaoo.

You're getting closer and closer to the point. YOU DON'T NEED TO HIT PEOPLE TO BE EFFECTIVE AT CONTROLLING THE PUCK AND THE PLAY.

Teams have won in many many different ways. With speed, with size, with shooting, with defensive positioning, etc.

It doesn't matter HOW you dominate play. it matters IF you dominate play.

And Jack Hughes, Nico Hischier, and Jesper Bratt dominate play. Just like Kucherov, Point, and Stamkos. Just like Eichel, Stone, and Marchessault. Just like Mackinnon, Rantanen, and Makar.

 

[Jersey Fresh]

You think the game is played the same way as it was in the 90's and 2000's?

Guy is a meaningless phrase generator sent back in time from 1993. “Stick on pucks”, “edge”, “middle of the ice”.

I feel like I’m watching Keith Jones color commentate a message board in real-time.

 

[albator71]

Brady is the least complete player of the bunch. Sure he throws hits but he’s also got the worst defensive impacts of them all

That's your opinion my guy. Personally I would take Stutzle and Brady any day of the week and twice on Sunday. Personally I think Hughes is overrated is a one dimensional player, we will see in the next 5 years who's the most successful.

 

[albator71]

And also I just want to remind everyone that New Jersey has made the playoffs twice in the last twelve years and the Sens have made it three time so I don't know where all that cockiness from Devils fans is coming from!!!

 

[Golden_Jet]

Who would you take?

lol @ the habs fan creates thread, never to be heard from again.

 

[bert]

You think the game is played the same way as it was in the 90's and 2000's?

If you think that fundamentally teams that can lock it down and limit other teams chances isnt part of winning hockey that would explain alot about your content on here.

 

[bert]

You have twisted your definitions so far up your own ass you don't even know what you are saying.

First it was:

you need to be more physical

then it's not actually physicality but stickwork.

Then it's f***ing gap control and defensive positioning lmaoo.

You're getting closer and closer to the point. YOU DON'T NEED TO HIT PEOPLE TO BE EFFECTIVE AT CONTROLLING THE PUCK AND THE PLAY.

Teams have won in many many different ways. With speed, with size, with shooting, with defensive positioning, etc.

It doesn't matter HOW you dominate play. it matters IF you dominate play.

And Jack Hughes, Nico Hischier, and Jesper Bratt dominate play. Just like Kucherov, Point, and Stamkos. Just like Eichel, Stone, and Marchessault. Just like Mackinnon, Rantanen, and Makar.

And there it is folks. No not just like those players, those are cup winners. All those players play a harder, heavier more physical game or have a nasty side to them outside of Marchesseault.

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

I know Bratt is a very good player but players that compete like that are an issue with not only the on ice results but team culture and leadership perspective.

If you think Bratt's compete level is an issue you clearly haven't watched more than that one shift vs the Ranger. He's a sparkplug out there, his work ethic on the ice has never been in question.

 

[bert]

And also I just want to remind everyone that New Jersey has made the playoffs twice in the last twelve years and the Sens have made it three time so I don't know where all that cockiness from Devils fans is coming from!!!

They beat the Rangers two years ago didnt you hear! They have the most expected goals, Hughes projects to have the best PPG. Except these two stats arent the same as scoring those actual goals and winning those actual games. I think its likely is a matter of time before it happens but I will need to see it before i start stroking them off and declaring them the best team in the league. The late 90's and early 2000's sens did the same and were frankly a much better team but never won the big one. Lots of perimeter play come playoff time after dominating regular seasons and end up losing to teams that were more physical. Got to the middle of the ice etc.

If you think Bratt's compete level is an issue you clearly haven't watched more than that one shift vs the Ranger. He's a sparkplug out there, his work ethic on the ice has never been in question.

Except for playoffs?.... Seems like a pretty big question. Weird time to just stop doing it, or maybe its because its harder? He played a perimeter game in the playoffs. I am not saying he isnt capable of playing differently but he actually has to do it. You're far more level headed and show real hockey acumen in that you can evaluate by watching way more than the other posters I am discussing with. Would you take him over Stutzle or Tkachuk?... Honestly.

 

[dgibb10]

They beat the Rangers two years ago didnt you hear! They have the most expected goals, Hughes projects to have the best PPG. Except these two stats arent the same as scoring those actual goals and winning those actual games. I think its likely is a matter of time before it happens but I will need to see it before i start stroking them off and declaring them the best team in the league. The late 90's and early 2000's sens did the same and were frankly a much better team but never won the big one. Lots of perimeter play come playoff time after dominating regular seasons and end up losing to teams that were more physical. Got to the middle of the ice etc.


Except for playoffs?.... Seems like a pretty big question. Weird time to just stop doing it, or maybe its because its harder? He played a perimeter game in the playoffs. I am not saying he isnt capable of playing differently but he actually has to do it. You're far more level headed and show real hockey acumen in that you can evaluate by watching way more than the other posters I am discussing with. Would you take him over Stutzle or Tkachuk?... Honestly.

Bratt played a very effective playoff game too.

Unfortunately, in small sample sizes like that, luck (and goaltending) comes into play significantly.

Igor Shesterkin stood on his head and overall NJD unfortunately shot just 4.36% with bratt on the ice.

But as has been explained to you many times, NJD generated 63% of expected goals with bratt on the ice.

 

[bert]

Bratt played a very effective playoff game too.

Unfortunately, in small sample sizes like that, luck (and goaltending) comes into play significantly.

Igor Shesterkin stood on his head and overall NJD unfortunately shot just 4.36% with bratt on the ice.

But as has been explained to you many times, NJD generated 63% of expected goals with bratt on the ice.

12 playoff games 1 goal (empty net) 6 points. That's what matters. Will he be better? Probably, maybe... But he wasnt very good his first go around. Saying he was effective when those are the results is laughable.

 

[dgibb10]

12 playoff games 1 goal (empty net) 6 points. Thats what matters.

Yep. You tip your cap to the goalies on the other side that stood on their heads. Igor specifically is clearly the best goalie in hockey, and showed it once again in those playoffs

For someone who claims that you need to "watch the games" it's ironic that you don't seem to actually remember those playoffs and how much NJD dominated play with bratt on the ice.

 

[bert]

Yep. You tip your cap to the goalies on the other side that stood on their heads. Igor specifically is clearly the best goalie in hockey, and showed it once again in those playoffs

For someone who claims that you need to "watch the games" it's ironic that you don't seem to actually remember those playoffs and how much NJD dominated play with bratt on the ice.

They dominated Carolina? When you are capable of being objective at all we can continue this conversation. Results matter not expected results. Have a good one.

 

[dgibb10]

They dominated Carolina? When you are capable of being objective at all we can continue this conversation. Results matter not expected results. Have a good one.

Carolina was very well suited to stop NJDs style. Because they were fast, defensively responsible, and aggressive on the forecheck in a way that a lot of NJDs Defense could not handle (specifically Graves, Siegenthaler, and Hamilton with his wrist injury).

the Palat-Nico-Bratt line specifically was a very weird case in that series.

2.7% on ice shooting, and an 81% on ice save% from the goalies behind him.

But NJD outshot, outchanced, and generated higher quality chances with that line on the ice. The rest of the team struggled. the truly elite 3rd line of Carolina did a great job against Jack (big props to Staal).

Now, the much slower, physical Rangers could not keep up with NJDs speed and skill.

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

Except for playoffs?.... Seems like a pretty big question. Weird time to just stop doing it, or maybe its because its harder? He played a perimeter game in the playoffs. I am not saying he isnt capable of playing differently but he actually has to do it.

He's actually been pretty good in the playoffs, just got stonewalled by Shesterkin in the Rangers season. He was all over the puck in the back half of that series after a timid first few games (the whole team was playing nervous in those first 2 games).

You're far more level headed and show real hockey acumen in that you can evaluate by watching way more than the other posters I am discussing with. Would you take him over Stutzle or Tkachuk?... Honestly.

I would not take Bratt over Stutzle, it's not even that close frankly. And I am a mega Bratt homer.

But with Bratt and Tkachuk, it really comes down to team need/preference. I'm a big Brady fan, and have been arguing for him over Matthew for years (and would still take him over his brother - I know that's controversial because points but Brady is a beast). But Bratt has that incredibly rare ability to drive offense from the wing - he's constantly creating something out of nothing, and has shown he can produce regardless of linemates. He's one of the most consistently underrated wingers in the game.

They'd actually be an amazing wing pair. Those two with like a Hughes/Stutzle type of center would be unreal to watch.

 

[Skinnyjimmy08]

Tkachuk and Stutzle for me... I'm just obsessed with Tkachuks unique and effective game so that tipped the scale for me

 

[WarriorofTime]

Fitzgerald is making them harder to play against whether its being physical or limiting time and space because he played hockey and he knows how the game is played. Unlike these spreadsheet arguments that hold no water without context. Eye test first advanced analytics second. Hockey is a physical emotional compete sport. Its not baseball with isolated one on one scenarios.

Do you have any actual data to support that playing at a high level makes for better GMs?

 

[KevinRedkey]

The gap between Hughes and Stutzle is bigger than the gap between Brady and Bratt. All 4 players are great, and any team would love to have any of them - but I gotta go with the NJD duo for now.

 

[Wierzbowski426]

They beat the Rangers two years ago didnt you hear! They have the most expected goals, Hughes projects to have the best PPG. Except these two stats arent the same as scoring those actual goals and winning those actual games. I think its likely is a matter of time before it happens but I will need to see it before i start stroking them off and declaring them the best team in the league. The late 90's and early 2000's sens did the same and were frankly a much better team but never won the big one. Lots of perimeter play come playoff time after dominating regular seasons and end up losing to teams that were more physical. Got to the middle of the ice etc.


Except for playoffs?.... Seems like a pretty big question. Weird time to just stop doing it, or maybe its because its harder? He played a perimeter game in the playoffs. I am not saying he isnt capable of playing differently but he actually has to do it. You're far more level headed and show real hockey acumen in that you can evaluate by watching way more than the other posters I am discussing with. Would you take him over Stutzle or Tkachuk?... Honestly.

You are making it very obvious you didn't watch the Devils playoffs.

Just stop.

 

[Silky Johnson]

I love Jimmy but I don’t know what we’re going to say any more about Hughes after he puts up 110+ points in a full season.

I still firmly believe that Stützle has been on the same trajectory as Hughes in the first couple of seasons but I need to see a close to 100 point season from him next year to firmly compare him to Jack.

Every time I think Stu narrows the gap being a year behind in development, Hughes stretches it out and puts the ball in Stutzles court.

Yup. Totally agree. Jack is amazing. And Tim did match him for the first three season which is also exceptional.

Don't say that too loud though. A bunch of NJ fans will get really sad if you impunes Jack's honor that way.

After a stagnated but injury plagued season for Tim last year, he HAS to keep pace thia season to be in the same conversation.

I think he will put up 100 point (pace at least) this year and his previous progression says its not a big stretch.

But we will see.