Bratt & J. Hughes or B.Tkachuk & Stutzle?

[Golden_Jet]

Did I say any different?

You gave the laugh emoji to this

Bratt does not equal Tkachuk, he would lose in a poll.

 

[Xirik]

You gave the laugh emoji to this

because its you that's saying it. You're obviously going to say that so I think it's funny.

Vegetarian like vegetables
girls like sparkly vampires
etc

 

[Akrapovince]

I love Jimmy but I don’t know what we’re going to say any more about Hughes after he puts up 110+ points in a full season.

I still firmly believe that Stützle has been on the same trajectory as Hughes in the first couple of seasons but I need to see a close to 100 point season from him next year to firmly compare him to Jack.

Every time I think Stu narrows the gap being a year behind in development, Hughes stretches it out and puts the ball in Stutzles court.

 

[Baksfamous112]

Did I say any different?


Also This coming from a guy who still thinks Josh Anderson is a good player and posts disparaging comments and generally talks about the Habs in the Mitchkov prospect thread because his team didn't pick him and feels the need to denigrate the player because the recent player his team drafted is the same nationality.

Where did I say Josh Anderson is a good player? I also never talk about Habs players or prospects on threads that aren't about Habs unless they are brought up.

 

[Golden_Jet]

because its you that's saying it. You're obviously going to say that so I think it's funny.

Vegetarian like vegetables
girls like sparkly vampires
etc

That’s the best pot meet kettle I’ve ever seen. Gold medal right there.

 

[MoneyManny]

On a competitive team, Hughes and his contract alone > Stutzle and Tkachuk IMO.

Having a legit superstar on a legit sweetheart, long term contract is the dream of any sports team fan and is the ultimate baseline to any team looking for success in a capped salary setting.

Really hard to make up for that difference in value with quantity imo. Also has a butterfly effect on the rest of the team's contracts and culture.

 

[dgibb10]

I haven’t responded back to poster, in this thread, and said I wouldn’t until he answered the questions he contstantly dodges.
I responded to a poster that caught you doing the opposite of what you said.
which was hilarious and a great zinger.

You - polls don’t mean anything, then later the polls have spoken. 59/40 split

You don't seem to be looking for an answer.

I have stated it requires, in my view, 2 seasons at a certain level before I value a player at that level going forward. Especially if they follow that career year up with a significantly worse year.

You seem to think it would be impossible for stutzle to do this at such a young age. And yet Jack Hughes did it at that age.

 

[Golden_Jet]

On a competitive team, Hughes and his contract alone > Stutzle and Tkachuk IMO.

Having a legit superstar on a legit sweetheart, long term contract is the dream of any sports team fan and is the ultimate baseline to any team looking for success in a capped salary setting.

Really hard to make up for that difference in value with quantity imo. Also has a butterfly effect on the rest of the team's contracts and culture.

I get that from a habs fan after losing 9 in a row now.

Senators top Canadiens in shootout, defeat them for 9th time in row | NHL.com

Chabot ties it late in in 3rd, Tkachuk, Sanderson each has 3 points for Ottawa

www.nhl.com

 

[pld459666]

So long as he can stay healthy, Jack Hughes is a much better player than either of the Sens player that he carries this and Bratt is a very good player himself.

 

[dgibb10]

I get that from a habs fan after losing 9 in a row now.

Senators top Canadiens in shootout, defeat them for 9th time in row | NHL.com

Chabot ties it late in in 3rd, Tkachuk, Sanderson each has 3 points for Ottawa

www.nhl.com

I'd be pissed too watching Bratt and Jack combine for 11 points against you guys in 3 games this year.

6 points from Bratter in your own damn building yikes

 

[NyQuil]

I'd be pissed too watching Bratt and Jack combine for 11 points against you guys in 3 games this year.

6 points from Bratter in your own damn building yikes

That’s what league worst goaltending can do.

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

You seem to think it would be impossible for stutzle to do this at such a young age. And yet Jack Hughes did it at that age.

70 points in 75 games while playing through injury is still a pretty impressive season. He had 20 points in his first 14 games, right on pace for where he left off the season prior. Then finished with only 50 in his final 61 games.

His drop-off in production is pretty much completely explained by the type of drop off in shooting percentage you'd expect from a guy playing through a wrist AND shoulder injury. If he were healthy last year he likely scores 90-100 points.

 

[goonybird]

I still don't know why fans of one team would ever argue with a fan of another over players on his team. You're not changing their minds, guys. It's just not happening. It's gonna be ok.

 

[MoneyManny]

I get that from a habs fan after losing 9 in a row now.

Senators top Canadiens in shootout, defeat them for 9th time in row | NHL.com

Chabot ties it late in in 3rd, Tkachuk, Sanderson each has 3 points for Ottawa

www.nhl.com

No other hockey fandom thinks about you guys, ever. Could lose 100 in a row to the Sens and i'd still be barely aware of their existence.

 

[Xirik]

No other hockey fandom thinks about you guys, ever. Could lose 100 in a row to the Sens and i'd still be barely aware of their existence.

I forget about the

Sabres
Jackets
Wild
Blues
Utah
Kraken

more then the Senators personally. Think it has to do with most of them having not that memorable logo's

 

[dgibb10]

70 points in 75 games while playing through injury is still a pretty impressive season. He had 20 points in his first 14 games, right on pace for where he left off the season prior. Then finished with only 50 in his final 61 games.

His drop-off in production is pretty much completely explained by the type of drop off in shooting percentage you'd expect from a guy playing through a wrist AND shoulder injury. If he were healthy last year he likely scores 90-100 points.

The concern is the massive drop in primary point production, both in goals and in primary assists, both on the PP and EV.

That and not really driving play with an xGoals share right at 50. He wasn't winning his minutes.

The shooting was not the only thing falling off.

Jesper Bratt had a very down shooting year by his standards. His history suggests he's a guy who usually gets around 5-7 goals above expectation.
He was about 3 below expectation this past year. You'd expect a 8 goal jump or if his shooting returns to his norm, and his play driving remains the same.

Stutzle was 6.4 goals below expectation this past year. his first 2 years were right around 0, his 3rd year +6.5. I'd have to wait and see more on what his normal is, but I don't think Stutzle's shot is special

In general I'd expect the exact same shooting improvement next year from both bratt and stutzle next year.

I don't think you'll see Stutzle shoot at 17% more than 1 or 2 times for the rest of his career.


13.6% total over the last 2 years and right in line with his expected goal numbers seems perfectly reasonable for me for stutzle.

 

[Hisch13r]

Hughes + Bratt 640/777 0,82ppg

Stutzle + Tkachuk 596/725 0.82ppg

I would argue that Brady is the more complete player of the bunch. You can't go wrong with either duo to be honest

Personally I would go with Stutzle and Tkachuk

Brady is the least complete player of the bunch. Sure he throws hits but he’s also got the worst defensive impacts of them all

 

[bert]

By D+3 Stutzle was already quite a bit behind Jack in P/60.

And then you can't simply give stutzle credit for something he didn't do.

Jack played with a shoulder injury all year, and guess what he STILL did.

3.41 points/60. 0.15 higher than Stutzles career high.

Healthy jack is significantly ahead of healthy stutzle. Injured Jack is significantly ahead of injured stutzle

Jack became a 3.81 points/60 player in D+4
Stutzle dropped to 2.65

Stutzle was closer to in points/60 to Brett Leason (351st in the league), than he was to D+4 Jack

That and tim stutzle being nowhere close EV

Not being injured is a skill. You actually have to play to have an impact. This isn't a spread sheet or a video game.

On a competitive team, Hughes and his contract alone > Stutzle and Tkachuk IMO.

Having a legit superstar on a legit sweetheart, long term contract is the dream of any sports team fan and is the ultimate baseline to any team looking for success in a capped salary setting.

Really hard to make up for that difference in value with quantity imo. Also has a butterfly effect on the rest of the team's contracts and culture.

Are you that unfamiliar with all 3 players contracts?

The concern is the massive drop in primary point production, both in goals and in primary assists, both on the PP and EV.

That and not really driving play with an xGoals share right at 50. He wasn't winning his minutes.

The shooting was not the only thing falling off.

Jesper Bratt had a very down shooting year by his standards. His history suggests he's a guy who usually gets around 5-7 goals above expectation.
He was about 3 below expectation this past year. You'd expect a 8 goal jump or if his shooting returns to his norm, and his play driving remains the same.

Stutzle was 6.4 goals below expectation this past year. his first 2 years were right around 0, his 3rd year +6.5. I'd have to wait and see more on what his normal is, but I don't think Stutzle's shot is special

In general I'd expect the exact same shooting improvement next year from both bratt and stutzle next year.

I don't think you'll see Stutzle shoot at 17% more than 1 or 2 times for the rest of his career.


13.6% total over the last 2 years and right in line with his expected goal numbers seems perfectly reasonable for me for stutzle.

Again watch a hockey game for once. Stutzle has a way better shot. Every thread you prove you actually don't watch. Then cherry pick whatever advanced statistic that suits your narrative. Doesn't matter which team it is the new jersey devil is always better.

 

[dgibb10]

Not being injured is a skill. You actually have to play to have an impact. This isn't a spread sheet or a video game.


Are you that unfamiliar with all 3 players contracts?


Again watch a hockey game for once. Stutzle has a way better shot. Every thread you prove you actually don't watch. Then cherry pick whatever advanced statistic that suits your narrative. Doesn't matter which team it is the new jersey devil is always better.

Good thing Jack had more total impact in his D+3 and D+4 too.

Jack had 16 goals and 45 points in 360 PP minutes compared to 9 goals and 48 points for stutzle in 520 PP minutes (based on the goals Jack did more in 160 fewer minutes.

EV jack had 47 goals and 95 points in 2000 minutes, stutzle had 35 goals and 97 points in 2400 minutes. Again, because of the goals, Jack did more in 400 fewer minutes.

Jack is once again, so much better than Stutzle that he doesn't need all that time to produce better total results

Stutzle is a career net 0 shooter. He had 1 year at 17.5% which he was always very unlikely to sustain. Every year I point out that guys with 1 year shooting% aberrations are likely to regress, every year people like you say "watch hockey" and every year those players shooting % magically fall back down to earth the next year, like clockwork.

 

[Baksfamous112]

I'd be pissed too watching Bratt and Jack combine for 11 points against you guys in 3 games this year.

6 points from Bratter in your own damn building yikes

Our season all ended up at the same time buddy. Nothing really to brag about.

 

[Hisch13r]

Jack Hughes is clearly the dealbreaker here, but he’s only played more than 70 games once in his career.

He didn't miss a game in the Covid shortened year and his rookie year played in 61 of the 69 games.

Wow, that 1 play surely defines a players entire career.

Surely bratt didn't dominate while on the ice that entire series.

Also, I went to find a playoff clip of Tkachuk and Stutzle and for some reason couldn't find anything. Weird.

You seem to have formed the entire basis of your opinion on Bratt from 1 singular play.

Well no that's not the case. His entire basis of opinion on Bratt is 5'10 175. He's just using that play to back up him not liking Bratt. He's notoriously one of the biggest size queens on the site

 

[PenguinSuitedUp]

He didn't miss a game in the Covid shortened year and his rookie year played in 61 of the 69 games.

So he’s 1 for 3. Are you saying there are no concerns with his injury history? It’s certainly not a criticism of him from my perspective. The Pens have had plenty of misfortune with star players and injuries. But it is a reality when making this comparison.

 

[bert]

He didn't miss a game in the Covid shortened year and his rookie year played in 61 of the 69 games.



Well no that's not the case. His entire basis of opinion on Bratt is 5'10 175. He's just using that play to back up him not liking Bratt. He's notoriously one of the biggest size queens on the site

So has he played more than 70 games? No.

I know Bratt is a very good player but players that compete like that are an issue with not only the on ice results but team culture and leadership perspective. I dont think he's as good as Stutzle or Tkachuk I wouldnt trade either of them in any scenario anyone that would well I dunno what to tell you but I dont think many NHL GM's would either.

I also have the ability to put my team bias aside and acknowledge Jack Hughes is the most valuable asset here he has proven that he can play at the highest level. He is the most valuable asset, I dont think Stutzle is that far off statistically year by year, he hasnt been. Stutzle has stayed healthier and plays with more of an edge. He isnt as Skilled as Hughes though. I think Tkachuk is a very unique player that is a much more valuable asset than Bratt. I dont think anyone but a biased New Jersey fan would take Bratt over Tkachuk.

'Size queens' haha is that what you devils fans call it when people identify that teams that are long physical and hard to play against have success?.... Just seeing actual trends in real results.... What a crazy concept. Perhaps that's why teams in the league real hockey executives value it as well?...

If it was an all skill league with no physicality Jersey would be a dominant team. They certainly have all the skill and talent in the world but there is more to hockey than that clearly. Well maybe not clearly to you but when you watch the playoffs and see the teams that fail early and the ones that go deep you'd have to be pretty ignorant or blind to not see the consistency of the heavy teams success's come playoff time.

 

[dgibb10]

So has he played more than 70 games? No.

'Size queens' haha is that what you devils fans call it when people identify that teams that are long physical and hard to play against have success?.... Just seeing actual trends in real results.... What a crazy concept. Perhaps that's why teams in the league real hockey executives value it as well?...

If it was an all skill league with no physicality Jersey would be a dominant team. They certainly have all the skill and talent in the world but there is more to hockey than that clearly. Well maybe not clearly to you but when you watch the playoffs and see the teams that fail early and the ones that go deep you'd have to be pretty ignorant or blind to not see the consistency of the heavy teams success's come playoff time.

Except there are no trends.

Size

Hits

Fights

Penalties.

Any countable metric for "physicality" or "hard to play against" has shown to have 0 correlation with winning.

But when you start pretending every team that wins is a physical beast retroactively, it's a different story. Like pretending 5 foot 8 kucherov is some physical monster.

If NJD wins the cup I'm sure you'll be quick to throw credit to Meier, Dillon, Noesen, etc. And talk about how Bratt, Hischier, and Hughes were actually tough all along

 

[Xirik]

So has he played more than 70 games? No.

'Size queens' haha is that what you devils fans call it when people identify that teams that are long physical and hard to play against have success?.... Just seeing actual trends in real results.... What a crazy concept. Perhaps that's why teams in the league real hockey executives value it as well?...

If it was an all skill league with no physicality Jersey would be a dominant team. They certainly have all the skill and talent in the world but there is more to hockey than that clearly. Well maybe not clearly to you but when you watch the playoffs and see the teams that fail early and the ones that go deep you'd have to be pretty ignorant or blind to not see the consistency of the heavy teams success's come playoff time.

If Physicality was so great then the Senators wouldn't be at the bottom of the league.

Do you not even think of what the counter argument will be when you post? because that was spectacularly easy.

Ottawa will still get a lot of penalties in the playoffs given how easy it is to set off Tkachuk, Him chasing Hischier with murderous eyes because Nico guided the puck into the empty Sens net is still hilarious to this day.