Do they not need to sign 1 more player to meet expansion rules or am I wrong ?
If so which rfa do they bring back ? Pump ?
If so which rfa do they bring back ? Pump ?
Player Discussion Brandon Pirri
- Thread starter GordonGecko
- Start date
- Status
Hunter Gathers
The Crown
You know my thoughts on AV.
TBH, if he and Vesey are both sucking? I'd rather play the learning rookie with more upside.
Same with Buch. If Buch, Ves, or whoever has a down game? Sure, let them learn from the bench. But I'd rather the kids learn on the ice if at all possible.
One Winged Angel
You Can't Escape
If he's not scoring on the power play, he's useless, which he has been since late October/early November.
I don't see how he helps this team in any such way. If you want to move Vesey down to the 4th line when Fast comes back and send Glass back down, fine by me. Buchnevich nor Vesey should be sitting when everyone is back.
I don't see why Clendening is sitting either. Kampfer hasn't done anything worth keeping him in the lineup over Clendening.
I don't see how he helps this team in any such way. If you want to move Vesey down to the 4th line when Fast comes back and send Glass back down, fine by me. Buchnevich nor Vesey should be sitting when everyone is back.
I don't see why Clendening is sitting either. Kampfer hasn't done anything worth keeping him in the lineup over Clendening.
Pirri has a good shot. The issue is that he cannot get it off under pressure. Without him getting his shot on goal several times a game, he is not that far off from Glass.
silverfish
got perma'd
What is "several"? 2? 3?
Your expectation is that a player averaging 12 minutes of ice a game should have two or three shots on goal every game? Let's call it 2.5. That'd be 205 shots on goal a year.
Do you know how many players had >= 200 shots on goal last season? 59.
Know how many of those players averaged not even 12, but 15 minutes of TOI/GP or less? 0.
This is such an absurd standard to hold a player to.
I don't think anyone is going to deny that Pirri isn't getting himself in position to shoot enough this year, but, that's about it. To expect 200 shots on goal from a 12 minute player is preposterous.
A better judgment would be to look at his individual shot attempts per 60, which are down 3 full attempts YoY this year to last. That's bad.
Ok. Then let's change the script to that of far more often then not, Pirri is utterly useless and invisible. He has shown himself to be the fringe NHLer he truly is. Whether is in the game or not makes no difference.
silverfish
got perma'd
He was installed during the season as a PP specialist, no? He should be able to get a shot on goal or two during a man advantage, no?
Yes, according to me. That is my view and that is what I state. No more valid then the rest of the opinions offered.
silverfish
got perma'd
Oh, you mean 5v4? Where he leads the team in shot attempts per 60 by SIX and is 13th in the league this year? And is tied for the team lead in PPG? That?
SA16
Sixstring
Similar concept as how Yandle "needed to shoot more" on the powerplay and that he passed up too many opportunities...despite ranking 15/51 in shots on the PP in his years as a Ranger ahead of guys like Subban Doughty Karlsson Carlson Josi Letang.
Sometimes you just can't win.
silverfish
got perma'd
It's really something.
Mike Hoffman leads the league in shots for per 60 5v4 with 20.84. If you round that down to per 2 minutes, it's 0.7. Ovechkin: .64. Pirri: .56. (Corsica.Hockey)
You want 2 or 3 PP shots on goal per game from Pirri? Or a "shot on goal or two during a man advantage"?
*jlawokay.gif*
Last edited:
For a guy with an amazing shot, he doesn't create his own.
It's not like the NHL has that spot up 3 point shooter as a specialty role.
Pirri's lack of athleticism and skating ability limit him.
Teams took away the 1-3-1 option from him early and Zibs can't find the net so there was never that same threat from pre-season.
Also he's turnover prone on neutral zone carries. Lack of skating once again.
It's not like the NHL has that spot up 3 point shooter as a specialty role.
Pirri's lack of athleticism and skating ability limit him.
Teams took away the 1-3-1 option from him early and Zibs can't find the net so there was never that same threat from pre-season.
Also he's turnover prone on neutral zone carries. Lack of skating once again.
- Oct 23, 2014
- 30,395
- 43,116
I don't agree at all that that's the issue. The issue is besides having something between an above average and elite NHL Shot, he's a very average player (putting it nicely). He can't create much or make much of an impact away from the puck/in other areas of the game besides finishing and shooting.
That's why he's bounced around all over the league. Teams like his finish ability, but he's a liability in the top6 and his game isn't in the mold of a bottom 6 NHL player, either.
He's a perennial PPG+ player in the AHL, where he belongs (and where he will soon eventually settle permanently), IMO. He's a fringe NHL player with an elite shot.
Right. This is why he was available late in the free agency market, and for cheap.
- Oct 23, 2014
- 30,395
- 43,116
It was definitely worth the risk of seeing if he could be a moneypuck asset for this team but I just think he's too much of a liability just to keep around for the PP.
I'd like to see Hrivik - Lindberg - Fast as the 4th line going forward but I doubt that's gonna happen, unfortunately. That line could actually play in the offensive zone regularly.
Those 3 had a CF% of 63% in the 45 minutes they were together. That's amazing.
I know what your stats tell you. When you look at him, do you really see an elite PP player?
silverfish
got perma'd
No, but who said he's supposed to be an elite PP player? You were complaining that he doesn't shoot enough on the PP, which is objectively false.
When I look at Pirri, I see a PP trigger-man, and that's exactly what he's been doing on the PP. He's a +2.31 relative GF per 60 player 5v4. You can call this "what my stats tell me" but what it says is that the Rangers are more prolific 5v4 with Pirri on the ice than without him on the ice.
Goals per 60:
With Pirri: 6.94
Without Pirri: 4.63
Shot attempts per 60:
With Pirri: 114.32
Without Pirri: 74.4
If you took the Rangers metrics above with Pirri on the ice and compared them to a league ranking for each team?
114.32 shot attempts per 60 would be first in the league by 12 attempts. Philadelphia is in 1st right now with 102.76.
6.94 goals for per 60 would be good for 7th in the league.
(Corsica.Hockey)
So again. Do I see an elite PP player? No. Do I see a player who the Rangers should have in the lineup so he can be on their 5v4 unit? Yes.
But what I believe, is that you're just looking for things to complain about that straight up are not there. You can bash Pirri for his 5v5 play this year, he hasn't been good enough, but to complain about his 5v4 time? That's an argument that has no business being made.
Hunter Gathers
The Crown
silverfish
got perma'd
He's having a bad year 5v5. No doubt. He's not getting his offense like he used to. Could be an ice-time thing. Could be a quality of teammates thing. Could be a him not fitting in AV's team type thing. I'm sure the response to this will be that "he's bad", but I don't think it's that simple.
Players have bad years. Pirri is not having a "Pirri" 5v5 year scoring-wise right now. Doesn't make the Pirri signing any less savvy today than it was when the Rangers signed him. And next off-season when he gets another NHL contract, or a tryout with a team, it'll be a savvy signing by whichever org grants him that opportunity.
Interestingly enough, it seems like he's generating more quality chances this year than the previous two seasons, he's just not finishing. He's operating 3% lower than his expected unblocked shooting percentage suggests. Normally, he outshoots his expectation. Either way, he's not doing enough to put himself in a position to get a quantity amount of shot attempts off 5v5, and that's the problem.
Is this a regression to the norm season? Bad luck? Who knows. I think to just simply say that Pirri is "bad" is lazy analysis.
At the end of the day, to me, Pirri is a bottom-6 player who scores at the rate of a top-6 player. Unfortunately, if you're getting bottom-6 TOI and teammates, it's a hard thing to keep up. What we're seeing this year is Pirri not keeping that up.
Synergy27
F-A-C-G-C-E
I don't disagree that Vesey has been bad, but you're missing the fact that the organization has a vested interest in his development, and hence in his continued presence in the lineup. The same isn't true about Pirri, and I like Pirri.
It's also funny to read a bunch of posts earlier in this thread about how his goals matter more than anything, but when analyzing team performance as a whole, goals are discounted because they're rare and random events. Both can't be true.
NickyFotiu
NYR 2024 Cup Champs!
- Sep 29, 2011
- 17,346
- 9,442
eyjee,
Do you believe that you have judged JT Miller in the same manner as you have judged Brandon Pirri?
Do you believe that you have judged JT Miller in the same manner as you have judged Brandon Pirri?
silverfish
got perma'd
Is this the path we really want to go down today?
If you can broaden your question with some examples, I'd be happy to answer how I think my evaluation of players is pretty consistent.
I'm not entirely certain what's wrong about saying Pirri his been good 5v4, bad 5v5, and should be in the lineup over Glass.
But we can do this. Let me know how you want to proceed
NickyFotiu
NYR 2024 Cup Champs!
- Sep 29, 2011
- 17,346
- 9,442
Is this the path we really want to go down today?
If you can broaden your question with some examples, I'd be happy to answer how I think my evaluation of players is pretty consistent.
I'm not entirely certain what's wrong about saying Pirri his been good 5v4, bad 5v5, and should be in the lineup over Glass.
But we can do this. Let me know how you want to proceed
I just would like to know why when we have discussed JT you have always taken a more negative half empty approach to him but when we discuss Brandon Pirri you take a positive glass half full approach? Why bash the guy that has produced for us yet prop up the guy who hasn't produced for us? With all due respect I would imagine that most posters see a double standard of judgement.
silverfish
got perma'd
Just more proof that the eye-test sucks
I think my approach to both of these players is aligned more in (my perceived) reality than taking an approach one way or another, positive or negative. I'm less bullish on JT than most, which I guess is perceived as being negative. I'm more bullish on Pirri than most, which I guess is perceived as being positive.
I think I had JT pegged at 15g/35a max this season which is quite close to where he's at. He has more goals than I expected, but the research I conducted suggested that his sh% was going to decrease this year. And it did, 5v5 and 5v4. What I did not expect, was 4v5 time, where JT has three of his goals.
Now to get to the "fancystat" portion of this post...
His underlying #s are total ****. The Rangers do not shoot as often and get bludgeoned by attempts against when he is on the ice. With the understanding that his line is out there to create quality chances instead of quantity chances, JT's on-ice metrics do not suggest that he moves the needle all that much compared to the rest of the team in quality chances.
Quality over quantity tends to be less repeatable and sustainable than quantity over quality.
So, while he's essentially put up b2b 20 goal years here, I'm not entirely convinced this is what JT is. I think he's a good set up man, I think he'll give you anywhere from 35-40 assists a year (pending ice time, could be more), but I think at the end of the day, he settles in around 15 all situation goals a year. And there's nothing wrong with that at all.
Where my "Miller hater" status opens up is when people in ever off-season deem him a guaranteed 60 point guy, well, I don't buy that. Does that make me "negative" ? Maybe. But, I like to believe it's "real".
Hope that helps clear some of this thought process up.
- Status
