Brady Tkachuk vs Mitch Marner

[TheFinalWord]

As opposed the banners hanging in Ottawa?

Impressive. I'm feeling all kinds of pain now. If only I could have witnessed my team lose in the finals. Then I would feel much better about being a fan. I've got no comeback.

 

[Koivu11]

Using that logic with Tkachuk being younger than Marner, I guess if Connor McDavid becomes a UFA no teams should sign him since he's also order and was in the same draft class as Marner.

He said he took their age and contract into consideration when comparing these two players and you say that means no one should sign McDavid as a UFA using that logic because he’s the same age as Marner?

How does that make any sense? What are you talking about man?

 

[Xspyrit]

point per cap hit is not really a great way to judge a player.

Pastrnak > McDavid
Thompson > McDavid
A lot of ELCs > McDavid

Konecny > Tkachuk
Necas > Tkachuk
Dubois > Tkachuk
Nylander > Tkachuk

It's hard and it takes a lot of time to always have to explain everything...

Pastrnak is a HUGE bargain on his current contract and a big reason why the Bruins are so good. But he is UFA at the end of the season, how much do you think he will cost? When we will have that new information, it will be clearly McDavid again. Even now, you could still take McDavid who has 3.5 years left vs 0.5 for Pastrnak...

ELCs who are also a huge bargain won't last much longer. Like Stutzle for example, his extension kicks in next season.

Thomson vs McDavid might be the closest here, he has 7 more years at a very reasonable rate. If he can continue on his current level, he'll be a huge bargain, enough to make you think about it vs McDavid

But in the end, McDavid is that exceptional player who you wouldn't mind paying more, just for marketing impact it has on your franchise and just because how much better he is than everybody else. Crosby and Ovechkin have been that as well for a long time. But in the Marner vs Tkachuk comparison, they are both impact players where everything needs to be taken in consideration.

I would 100% agree that Nylander > Tkachuk if he had more term, but again, only 1 season left. Konecny has an additional more year, if I knew I could extend him at a reasonable price then I would probably take him but he'll be UFA, kind of risky if my team wants to compete. Same for Dubois and Necas, new deals will come in the near future

 

[bert]

Yes or no did the media not use the phrase "Summer of Dorion" to describe the Senators offseason moves?

Using that logic with Tkachuk being younger than Marner, I guess if Connor McDavid becomes a UFA no teams should sign him since he's also order and was in the same draft class as Marner.

What an incredibly stupid post.

 

[Xspyrit]

In other words, you have no response.

No, it's just that I know it's impossible to discuss with people doing what you're doing.

Except you did. When I called you out on trying to dismiss the offensive gap between them, you literally said the words ""Closing the gap offensively" doesn't mean 9 pts is "insignificant"". Something can only be significant or insignificant. If you're agreeing that it's not insignificant, then that's the same as agreeing that it's significant. You also said the words "It's obvious that the discussion only happens IF Tkachuk keeps up with Marner production this season... If it doesn't happen, then it's still Marner by a significant margin" Tkachuk has not kept up with Marner's production this season, so according to your own statement, "it's still Marner by a significant margin". And yet here you are, still arguing.

Look, I gave up on this. It's literally impossible to make you understand the meaning of words. There is of course a grey zone here, It's not automatically significant or insignificant. You're not fooling anybody. The rest is just more of the same, you did the same thing in plenty occasions

You keep accusing other people of having reading comprehension problems, while calling them "intellectually dishonest" and "homers", when none of that is remotely true. If anybody is displaying that, it's you. Try having an actual discussion without insulting the other side whenever you're proven wrong.

Again, you're not fooling me with your schtick. The fact that you're complaining about "insulting" despite doing what you're doing is ironic, to say the least. I am not the one twisting words to win an argument over the internet. I have already exposed all you did, it's in the conversation history

You didn't bring up any facts. I brought up all of the facts. Marner is better offensively. Marner is better defensively. Marner also brings additional impacts on top that Tkachuk does not. Then you tried to dismiss pretty much everything, make up hypothetical scenarios, and give Tkachuk a bunch of bonus points for that and for being big, even though any meaningful impacts from being big were already counted in the metrics. And then make silly polls when this one didn't give you the answer you wanted.

Of course! Read the conversation, I brought up all the facts needed for the current discussion about THIS season. You just decided that you would keep being stubborn about your ridiculous AINEC stance

and lol at "silly polls", nothing silly about that poll, it's just PROVES the point that you've been a huge homer here. You said "not a chance", yet most people (outside of other homers) would take Tkachuk contract over Marner's

Go read through your own thread.

Except not only are you comparing a career high pace for one to the lowest pace in years for the other - which paints a very misleading picture of the significant gap between them offensively - but you're also again dismissing the other significant impacts that Marner brings and Tkachuk does not, to misrepresent Tkachuk as more valuable when he's not. Marner is easily worth that difference in cap hit, and you don't trade the better player for the worse player to save a couple mil. I also don't really care about you trying to skew the results with term, when Marner is likely a Leaf for life.

Again, you're proving that you're blindly omitting the reality to keep your narrowed view. I am not PAINTING or SKEWING anything. I simply asked which player people would take based on contracts and people had the free will to make their own choice. One thing is clear is that even if the gap in results was even wider, you'd keep going on with this

By your logic, Horvat's contract is only 3.6% higher and Horvat is producing 7.8% higher this year, so obviously you'd trade Tkachuk for Horvat, right? Or maybe it's not that simplistic.

Another example of your inability to understand logic. Horvat is 27 in his prime, people say he is having an outlier with super high S%, ok but it doesn't matter. Tkachuk turned 23 y/o this season, entering his prime. You're not comparing apples with apples.

The reality is marginal better production for 1/3 higher cap hit and 2.5 less term. You want to keep Marner? Then keep him! Let other people decide what they want

I'm pretty sure Dubas would trade Marner for Tkachuk in a heartbeat if he had the opportunity.

 

[notbias]

It's hard and it takes a lot of time to always have to explain everything...

Pastrnak is a HUGE bargain on his current contract and a big reason why the Bruins are so good. But he is UFA at the end of the season, how much do you think he will cost? When we will have that new information, it will be clearly McDavid again. Even now, you could still take McDavid who has 3.5 years left vs 0.5 for Pastrnak...

ELCs who are also a huge bargain won't last much longer. Like Stutzle for example, his extension kicks in next season.

Thomson vs McDavid might be the closest here, he has 7 more years at a very reasonable rate. If he can continue on his current level, he'll be a huge bargain, enough to make you think about it vs McDavid

But in the end, McDavid is that exceptional player who you wouldn't mind paying more, just for marketing impact it has on your franchise and just because how much better he is than everybody else. Crosby and Ovechkin have been that as well for a long time. But in the Marner vs Tkachuk comparison, they are both impact players where everything needs to be taken in consideration.

I would 100% agree that Nylander > Tkachuk if he had more term, but again, only 1 season left. Konecny has an additional more year, if I knew I could extend him at a reasonable price then I would probably take him but he'll be UFA, kind of risky if my team wants to compete. Same for Dubois and Necas, new deals will come in the near future

you value cap space and term WAY too much.

 

[Xspyrit]

you value cap space and term WAY too much.

Well, there's a salary cap where teams try to have the longest window of opportunity...

2 years x $10,903,000 AAV vs 5 years x $8,205,714 AAV

That was the post you quoted, so yeah, in that specific point, cap space and term is PARAMOUNT

 

[Dekes For Days]

No, it's just that I know it's impossible to discuss with people doing what you're doing.

It's not impossible to discuss with somebody who dismantles all of your arguments, if you're open to acknowledging when you're wrong.

Look, I gave up on this. It's literally impossible to make you understand the meaning of words. There is of course a grey zone here, It's not automatically significant or insignificant.

I understand the meanings of words. You are the one refusing to acknowledge the words you literally said, and their literal meaning. What exactly do you think is the opposite of insignificant?

The fact that you're complaining about "insulting" despite doing what you're doing is ironic, to say the least. I am not the one twisting words to win an argument over the internet. I have already exposed all you did, it's in the conversation history

I haven't done anything except prove that Marner is better, and I welcome everybody to go back through the conversation history to see both that, and you repeatedly deflecting to insults.

Read the conversation, I brought up all the facts needed for the current discussion about THIS season. You just decided that you would keep being stubborn about your ridiculous AINEC stance

Except you haven't. Marner has been better offensively this season. Marner has been better defensively this season. Marner has brought more impacts outside of that this season. Marner also has a history to support the sustainability of his performance this season, and more - something Tkachuk does not. And you decided to ignore all of that, and argue against the fact that Marner was the undeniable answer.

and lol at "silly polls", nothing silly about that poll

Everything is silly about that poll, that was only created, with carefully selected criteria, because you didn't like the opposite answer in this poll. Polls on the internet are not proof of anything, no matter how much you want them to be. They do not take precedence over the facts. The undeniable fact is that Marner is easily better, and well worth the amount he makes over Tkachuk.

Horvat is 27 in his prime, people say he is having an outlier with super high S%, ok but it doesn't matter.

So there's more to these evaluations than simply taking single season production and looking at cost per point, and ignoring everything else. Tell that to yourself from earlier today.

The reality is marginal better production for 1/3 higher cap hit and 2.5 less term. You want to keep Marner? Then keep him! Let other people decide what they want

The reality is significantly better production, significantly better defense, and significantly more impacts outside of that, for a couple million more. Undeniably worth it, and Toronto will happily keep Marner, the much better player. You're free to choose the worse player if you choose. You're the one that replied to me to argue against straight facts.

 

[notbias]

Well, there's a salary cap where teams try to have the longest window of opportunity...

2 years x $10,903,000 AAV vs 5 years x $8,205,714 AAV

That was the post you quoted, so yeah, in that specific point, cap space and term is PARAMOUNT

How much more do you think Marner is going to make on his next contract? On current contracts, Marner > Tkachuk, and I don't think he gets much of a raise.

 

[umma gumma]

Impressive. I'm feeling all kinds of pain now. If only I could have witnessed my team lose in the finals. Then I would feel much better about being a fan. I've got no comeback.

You're asking for a lot. Start with witnessing a 2nd round loss. Of course you have no comeback, just like your team.

lol at some Leaf fans playoff trash talking. It'd be like if Florida fans started talking shit. One big bowl of lol.

 

[Xspyrit]

It's not impossible to discuss with somebody who dismantles all of your arguments, if you're open to acknowledging when you're wrong.

I understand the meanings of words. You are the one refusing to acknowledge the words you literally said, and their literal meaning. What exactly do you think is the opposite of insignificant?

I haven't done anything except prove that Marner is better, and I welcome everybody to go back through the conversation history to see both that, and you repeatedly deflecting to insults.

- If you were not doing this on purpose, I'd apologize and admit I was wrong (on the intellectual dishonesty) but it's getting more and more obvious.

- I don't know how to explain it anymore but all the conclusions you WRONGFULLY made about what I have said makes it impossible to communicate. You twist my words and say this is what I have said when I have been trying to tell you that it's not. You did this countless times

For example, a 9 pts difference is not insignificant and also not significant. It is a difference but over 82 games and players producing above 80+ pts, it's none of these. That is why I have said that Tkachuk has been closing the gap (which was 30 pts last year) but yet, you keep repeating that I am saying the difference is significant. This is non-sensical

- I have also said that Marner was better offensively and defensively but the problem here is you said in MANY WAYS that Marner is better AINEC. I have been trying to demonstrate with facts (production, defensive metrics and other factors) how the GAP has been closed both offensively and defensively this season and that we could expect that going forward with Tkachuk entering his prime this season. You are the one who shut all that down because NOTHING would make you go back on your AINEC statement. Nothing.

- There was no insults, I have questioned your reading comprehension, then with time I have started to wonder if it was not just intellectual dishonesty. Feel free to report it if you want. I have no way of really knowing but if it's not one of these 2 things, how do you explain the thing you have repeatedly been doing? ( ex : significant)

- The fact that you think you've been an "angel" here is another problem. You have done a lot of words twisting and false accusations to discredit all my arguments. You even called my poll a "silly poll" when it was 100% rational.

Here's some examples :

"That seems to be your excuse to arbitrarily ignore all of the ways"
"in order to give the impression that"
"You literally keep dismissing the defensive difference between them, and arbitrarily claiming that coaching is the cause."
"You keep dismissing it and pretending the offensive gap doesn't exist or doesn't matter."
"Because it's sure taken you a while to admit it"
"There's been a pandemic, in case you hadn't noticed."

I admit your schtick is very subtle and that is why I don't think it's just a reading comprehension problem anymore

Except you haven't. Marner has been better offensively this season. Marner has been better defensively this season. Marner has brought more impacts outside of that this season. Marner also has a history to support the sustainability of his performance this season, and more - something Tkachuk does not. And you decided to ignore all of that, and argue against the fact that Marner was the undeniable answer.

Again, just more FALSE accusations, which is pretty insulting by the way but it looks like you're totally unaware of that. I have not ignored ANYTHING, I have argued against your stance of calling Marner better AINEC, nothing else. The fact that I have repeated this many times and you still make it seem like it's about something else is just more proof of what you are doing. Very toxic.

Everything is silly about that poll, that was only created, with carefully selected criteria, because you didn't like the opposite answer in this poll. Polls on the internet are not proof of anything, no matter how much you want them to be. They do not take precedence over the facts. The undeniable fact is that Marner is easily better, and well worth the amount he makes over Tkachuk.

Again, are you not voluntarily omitting to understand why the poll was created?

I said "Considering contracts, I think Dubas would pull the trigger on a 1 for 1 trade"

You replied : "Not a chance. Better players get paid more. That doesn't mean you trade them for worse players."

So I specifically wanted to show you that it was just your fandom speaking, but despite the results you still don't accept it and even worse, you continue with your schtick even saying "everything is silly about that poll"

There was NO "carefully selected criteria" lol, I posted AAVs and terms they have left on their contracts and asked people which contract they would go with. People don't need to be GMs to make a decision here. They can see both players play, they can look at their stats (adv. included) and take a look at their contractual situations. Even if polls are not proof of anything, results for a simple poll like that are pretty telling.

It is just showing how far you are ready to go for your fandom. It's getting a bit too intense so I will help you out by closing this discussion.

 

[Karl Eriksson]

The only thing more pathetic than where this thread has devolved is the Leafs’ playoff performance since the second Bush administration.

 

[Dekes For Days]

For example, a 9 pts difference is not insignificant and also not significant.

If something is significant, it is significant.
If something is not significant, it is insignificant.
I don't know how you're trying to argue something is neither.

-I have also said that Marner was better offensively and defensively but the problem here is you said in MANY WAYS that Marner is better AINEC. I have been trying to demonstrate with facts (production, defensive metrics and other factors) how the GAP has been closed both offensively and defensively this season and that we could expect that going forward with Tkachuk entering his prime this season.

If one player is better offensively, is better defensively, and also brings more impacts outside of that, there is really no argument other than that player being better AINEC.
Tkachuk has, through a portion of a season, narrowed the massive offensive gap that previously existed, but the defensive gap has not narrowed, Tkachuk still does not PK, let alone at an elite level, and Marner is still better offensively. The conclusion is unchanged.

- There was no insults

There have been quite a few from you.

You have done a lot of words twisting and false accusations to discredit all my arguments. You even called my poll a "silly poll" when it was 100% rational.

I haven't twisted a single word or made any false accusations. I addressed the things you have said and done within this discussion - some of which you refused to acknowledge.
Making a poll when facts get in the way of your argument is always silly. Argue your own point instead of resorting to argumentum ad populum.

Again, just more FALSE accusations

There is no false accusation in what I said. If you didn't ignore that Marner is better in literally everything, then there would be no disagreement. You claim you're not ignoring it, but you both refuse to acknowledge it and fail to argue against it.

Again, are you not voluntarily omitting to understand why the poll was created?

No, it's pretty clear why the poll was created. You didn't like the results of the poll you already had, and you won't accept that a GM wouldn't trade a superior player for a worse player, just to save less money than the difference in impact between them. And you somehow think a poll proves something, when it doesn't.

 

[NyQuil]

There is no false accusation in what I said. If you didn't ignore that Marner is better in literally everything, then there would be no disagreement. You claim you're not ignoring it, but you both refuse to acknowledge it and fail to argue against it.

Marner isn't better in literally everything.

Why the hyperbole? It's so unnecessary.

Brady Tkachuk has 1,136 hits since his rookie season. Among forwards, that's good for 2nd in the NHL behind Ryan Reeves who has a measly 16 more hits.

Comparatively, Marner has 194 hits.

Are you actually trying to maintain that physical play has zero impact on a professional hockey game whatsoever? Particularly in the post-season? It appears that this is what you are genuinely trying to argue, and it's amusing to say the least.

Tkachuk is also a decent faceoff guy for a winger, which can provide benefit for covering for a young centre still learning the trade (e.g. Stutzle) or when a centre is kicked out of the circle.

In xG, a stat which Zeke and others put a huge premium on in Matthews' favour back in the day, Brady Tkachuk is 6th in the NHL, well ahead of Marner who is 120th in the NHL.

It owes a lot to the fact that Brady Tkachuk operates around the net, but it reaffirms another aspect of the game where Tkachuk is superior to Marner in terms of net presence and being able to fight through crease-clearing defencemen.

If one player is better offensively, is better defensively, and also brings more impacts outside of that, there is really no argument other than that player being better AINEC.

What impacts outside of offensively and defensively does Marner bring?

Because he doesn't hit. He doesn't take faceoffs. He doesn't crash creases and create havoc in front of goaltenders. He doesn't protect his teammates.

In the non-offensive / non-defensive area, I'd say Tkachuk brings a lot more.

How hard is it to admit that Marner is the better player but there are some things that Brady Tkachuk does better than Marner?

It's downright bizarre, and it undermines your credibility a great deal because to say that Marner is better at "literally everything" is factually indefensible.

I'd love to see the reaction in Leafland if I argued that Haken Loob was better at "literally everything" than Wendel Clark.

 

[Rals]

Remember when leafland all orgasmed at the same time just for getting someone with "Clark(son)" in his name.


If Brady was a leaf he would outsell Marner Jerseys.

 

[NyQuil]

Remember when leafland all orgasmed at the same time just for getting someone with "Clark(son)" in his name.

If Brady was a leaf he would outsell Marner Jerseys.

 

[MCR74]

The only thing more pathetic than where this thread has devolved is the Leafs’ playoff performance since the second Bush administration.

I'd say the Sens under Melnyk's tenure the last little while were nothing to write home about either.

 

[danny90]

Doubling down on your moronic comment well done.


Yeah and the younger Tkachuk makes 8 million and is signed for 5 more seasons after this one. Marner makes 11 and is signed for 2 more. Maths hard.


You don't know this. He is 23. Be better.

Neither do you but as of right now that’s how it’s trending. He simply doesn’t score enough to be a positive player. Avery 2.0

 

[danny90]

View attachment 646815

I think most leaf fans I know cringed at the Clarkson signing

 

[NyQuil]

I think most leaf fans I know cringed at the Clarkson signing

I know I did.

In any event, Brady Tkachuk has more goals and points in half of this particular season than Clarkson had during his entire tenure with the Leafs.

 

[bert]

Neither do you but as of right now that’s how it’s trending. He simply doesn’t score enough to be a positive player. Avery 2.0

Just an absolutely tone def comparison. Tkachuk was a top 4 pick and is a captain of his team and has 3 less points than Avery had in his entire career he is 23. How its trending ? As he scores at a PPG rate in his D + 5.

I'd say the Sens under Melnyk's tenure the last little while were nothing to write home about either.

I dont think you'll see anyone argue that. Atleast the sens fanbase can admit when they have been futile. Or understand that Marner and Tkachuk while both very effective are very different stylistically and impact the game positively in different ways.

 

[LeafsNation75]

View attachment 646815

You do remember that when the Leafs signed David Clarkson that was when Dave Nonis was their GM and they had hadn't even hired Brendan Shanahan as their team President.

Yes, the signing of Clarkson was bad and a mistake, however he has no connection to their current management group of Shanahan and Dubas.

 

[NyQuil]

You do remember that when the Leafs signed David Clarkson that was when Dave Nonis was their GM and they had hadn't even hired Brendan Shanahan as their team President.

Yes, the signing of Clarkson was bad and a mistake, however he has no connection to their current management group of Shanahan and Dubas.

You do realize that I never made any comment to that effect, or even brought Clarkson up in the first place.

I brought up Wendel Clark because he was a much beloved Leaf who has a similar skillset to Brady Tkachuk that is also very much unlike Mitch Marner.

It would be interesting to ask the Leaf faithful if Mitch Marner was better at “literally everything” than Wendel Clark.

 

[Xspyrit]

If something is significant, it is significant.
If something is not significant, it is insignificant.
I don't know how you're trying to argue something is neither.

Well it seems that I have failed to explain you this so we'll have to agree to disagree. I'll also give you benefit of the doubt that you aren't not understanding on purpose. One thing for sure, for you it's black or white and there's nothing in between lol

If one player is better offensively, is better defensively, and also brings more impacts outside of that, there is really no argument other than that player being better AINEC.
Tkachuk has, through a portion of a season, narrowed the massive offensive gap that previously existed, but the defensive gap has not narrowed, Tkachuk still does not PK, let alone at an elite level, and Marner is still better offensively. The conclusion is unchanged.

Again, same as above. Black or white, nothing in between. Which is why you come to the conclusion that it's not AINEC, even if most people would tell you it's not. Your view would be very unpopular within the NHL (Players, coaching staff, executives, etc)

It has been demonstrated through facts that Tkachuk has closed most of the offensive gap AND defensive gap, unless expected goals don't matter but then again, we'd have to agree to disagree on that too. Marner plays on a strong defensive team, Tkachuk plays on a below average team, which is heavily due to a coaching staff being incapable to implement 2-way systems. But still, defensive metrics are getting closer and closer.

But OK if you don't agree.

Last thing is you insisting on the PK element while ignoring absolutely anything else that Tkachuk brings to the table. Then you tell me that you have played competitive hockey? I'm sure @bert would have a field day with that

There have been quite a few from you.

Like "reading comprehension problems"? lol ok I am really sorry! In my books, intellectual dishonesty is 1000x worse. But my apologies if you're really not doing this on purpose. You still have "accused" me of a lot of things though but this is clearly going above your head.

I haven't twisted a single word or made any false accusations. I addressed the things you have said and done within this discussion - some of which you refused to acknowledge.
Making a poll when facts get in the way of your argument is always silly. Argue your own point instead of resorting to argumentum ad populum.

Sure... just the "significant vs insignificant" thing, or the "just coaching", etc etc, you're basically telling me what I am thinking, not even sure if I have ever seen that before

And LOL you're doing it again right there. I have told you exactly WHY I have made the poll but you insist that you know better about what is happening in my head. This is absolute non-sense

I had an ex GF doing exactly that!

There is no false accusation in what I said. If you didn't ignore that Marner is better in literally everything, then there would be no disagreement. You claim you're not ignoring it, but you both refuse to acknowledge it and fail to argue against it.

Only you and others that are stubborn on that position will think that I have failed to argue against it. The comparison including contracts SPEAKS FOR ITSELF.

No, it's pretty clear why the poll was created. You didn't like the results of the poll you already had, and you won't accept that a GM wouldn't trade a superior player for a worse player, just to save less money than the difference in impact between them. And you somehow think a poll proves something, when it doesn't.

I wish we could poll current GMs on this and then send a recording team (I'd pay) so we could see your reaction reading the results, that would be a piece of Youtube anthology!

So it's ok if you choose to pay a guy 33% more for a marginal additional overall impact/contribution (as demonstrated), then have him leave in 2 years, vs the younger cheaper guy signed for 5 more years

But yeah, you're right again, we are ALL crazy

Ok so are we done here?

 

[Notsince67]

Once in a while? He’s third in hits over the last 5 seasons.

NHL Stats

The official source for NHL Stats including skaters, goalies, teams stats and more.

www.nhl.com

5th in major penalties.

He’s easily one of the most physically dominant forwards in the league.

Yet he has only managed 17 takeaways this season.
Does he even try to play the game for the puck?