Brady Tkachuk vs Mitch Marner

[Gavy]

All things considered, probably Brady because he's younger with better terms. But Marner is fantastic and if age & contract were the same it'd be him.

I see your shtick hasn't changed lol

 

[Stephen]

All things considered, probably Brady because he's younger with better terms. But Marner is fantastic and if age & contract were the same it'd be him.

They're two years apart in age...

 

[bert]

I thought this season Ottawa was supposed to be a lot better with the additions of Giroux and DeBrincat? During the offseason we heard the media saying what great moves Pierre Dorion made, so maybe you should stop with excuses like that.

Doubling down on your moronic comment well done.

They're two years apart in age...

Yeah and the younger Tkachuk makes 8 million and is signed for 5 more seasons after this one. Marner makes 11 and is signed for 2 more. Maths hard.

Brady is unfortunately going to be a career minus player if it doesn’t matter why do you care so much?

You don't know this. He is 23. Be better.

 

[Atomos2]

They're two years apart in age...

Old man Marner's life is already behind him. No one wins a cup after age 25. Dude needs to retire

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

I see your shtick hasn't changed lol

huh?

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

They're two years apart in age...

And? I said Tkachuk was younger, is that not true?

 

[Xspyrit]

There is not a chance that the Leafs would trade Marner for Tkachuk.
As you've been shown repeatedly throughout this thread, Marner is unquestionably the better player.
Heck, you were even shown that pretty extensively in the linked second poll you created when you didn't like the results of the first poll, by somebody who is very much not a Leaf fan.
He is better offensively. He is better defensively. He also brings actual additional impacts with elite PKing. They are on whole different tiers as players.
You have agreed Marner is better. You have agreed the differences are significant. And yet somehow when it comes time to put those facts together for the obvious rational conclusion, you refuse to acknowledge it, refuse to respond, hide behind a silly poll, and throw around personal attacks that apply to yourself more than anybody you're trying to insult.
I think it's time to just admit you're wrong.

Yeah I never responded to your other post because frankly this is such a waste of time. You literally can't read or you purposely won't, which is much worse because it's intellectual dishonesty

The fact that you still come up with "You have agreed the differences are significant" (I NEVER DID) is a big red flag of what you are ready to do to reach your means

I had responded to all your bs until then, and now you're trying to deflect it on me by using the victim card when the only thing I have said is that you have reading comprehension problems (which you just proved AGAIN, but I am actually really starting to think it's more intellectual dishonesty) and also acting like you were the perfect class act. The typical behavior of what is wrong on the internet

Now go look at post #321

Brady Tkachuk vs Mitch Marner

He doesn't really do that anymore. I know you won't believe me, but it's true. It's not even that he stopped "diving", he just has more strength, more balance. Kinda normal as you grow older and develop man's strength. But I mean, how is it possible to know that? Maybe you were born in like...

forums.hfboards.com

The conversation could have ended there, a perfectly diplomatic answer but you decided to reply with "He's factually not on Marner's level"

Then no matter what facts I would bring, you still came up with :

"the offense being on different tiers"
"and then get into the defense being polar opposites"
"AINEC"
"a far superior player"
"It was silly then, and it's even sillier now"

This poll and the other poll proves that you might be on an ISLAND with other Leafs homers if you think it is really AINEC

This is what I have argued about, nothing else. But you kept going with this all the way, which is a ridiculous opinion, no matter how you slice it. Anybody who lives in the real world would think it's ridiculous, particularly NHLers and even Mitch Marner himself.

Heck, you were even shown that pretty extensively in the linked second poll you created when you didn't like the results of the first poll, by somebody who is very much not a Leaf fan.

Wait, what the hell does that even mean?

What was shown EXTENSIVELY exactly? I didn't create the poll because I didn't like results, you said "not a chance", I thought by showing you that you were a pure HOMER (majority would take Brady considering age and contracts), you would realize how ridiculous your stance has been here and that it would make you STOP. But no, you decided to keep going on.

hide behind a silly poll

lol I am not hiding or anything, I don't need to. I got very busy though and didn't read anything from this thread since.

The other poll is not silly at all and the results speak for themselves, you're just way too deeply biased/blind by your homerism to have any kind of rationality. The fact that you're trying to use this rationality card on me is funny.


Like I said in that thread :

Marner is on pace for 95 pts at $10,903,000 AAV
Tkachuk is on pace for 84 pts at $8,205,714 AAV

13% more production for 33% more cap

When you factor in the fact that Tkachuk has 5 more years at this cap while Marner is UFA in 2 years with no way of knowing if he'll stick around... is it really even close?


But yet, you said "not a chance". So how do you answer to that argument now? I am just curious at this point.

 

[Stephen]

And? I said Tkachuk was younger, is that not true?

To each their own but a 2 year age gap isn’t really a functional advantage any more than to say Hughes and Hischier are at radically different career stages for example. And they’re farther apart.

I’ll bet Marner’s long 6 yeah losing track record in the playoffs makes him seem older, whereas Tkachuk and Ottawa stuck in the first gear of a rebuilding team appear younger and only at the beginning of the journey.

 

[NyQuil]

To each their own but a 2 year age gap isn’t really a functional advantage.

I’ll bet Marner’s long 6 yeah losing track record in the playoffs makes him seem older, whereas Tkachuk and Ottawa stuck in the first gear of a rebuilding team appear younger and only at the beginning of the journey.

The other question is whether the traditional view of power forwards taking longer to reach their peak vs. finesse forwards is applicable in this case or not.

 

[Stephen]

The other question is whether the traditional view of power forwards taking longer to reach their peak vs. finesse forwards is applicable in this case or not.

The power forward curve is always tricky to predict and plan for because the start up time takes so long, the peak is relatively brief in many cases and if unlucky there may be injury issues. That 25-28 year old Brady will be a beast though.

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

To each their own but a 2 year age gap isn’t really a functional advantage any more than to say Hughes and Hischier are at radically different career stages for example. And they’re farther apart.

I’ll bet Marner’s long 6 yeah losing track record in the playoffs makes him seem older, whereas Tkachuk and Ottawa stuck in the first gear of a rebuilding team appear younger and only at the beginning of the journey.

I'm not arguing that it necessarily gives him a functional advantage today, but it certainly could in the future, depending on how each guy ages. I suspect they will probably decline at similar time, as I think Marner's game probably holds up longer but he's also ~2.5 years older so.

But there is also something to be said for how Brady continues to improve each year, suggesting that he may still have upside beyond what he's shown. Which wouldn't be too surprising considering how power forwards tend to take longer to reach their primes.

 

[Xspyrit]

I would be curious to see counter-arguments to this argument :

Marner is on pace for 95 pts at $10,903,000 AAV
Tkachuk is on pace for 84 pts at $8,205,714 AAV

13% more production for 33% more cap

The expectations going into the Sens rebuild was to not make the playoffs for 6 or 7 years?

The rebuild started in January 2018, so exactly 5 years ago. Don't worry I have HEAVILY criticized Dorion (and Melnyk when he was still here) but this is factually the 5th season of the rebuild, 2017-18 was the year the wheels fell off (made the ECF game 7 double OT against the champs the year prior) but I always use it again Dorion though because he was in a PERFECT situation when they decided to rebuild. He had Chabot, Batherson, Formenton, Paul, White, etc in the prospect pool and had the LUXURY to have extremely valuable assets in their prime for trade (Karlsson, Stone, Duchene notably but also Pageau, Dzingel, Brassard, Hoffman, etc)

The team hasn't progressed much in the standings during the last 3 seasons, based on what I have mentioned above, this rebuild could have paid off faster, even though it was a scorched earth rebuild. But not only that, they could literally still have one of the best prospect pools and incredible depth throughout the organization but the really poor assets management, poor pro scouting and even some heavily questionable draft choices (Boucher at 10th OA?) has diminished what could be an extremely incredible situation. The position they were in just after the 2020 draft was just insanely good (I called that draft one of the best in NHL history and it's materializing already with Stutzle, Sanderson and Greig, with more coming). Dorion kept screwing up ever since though to diminish the overall organizational wealth.

After that draft, IMO Sens had the best situation in the whole NHL, now I am not even sure where it's going and I think it will really depends what happens with next ownership/management/coaching

Like I wrote earlier, Sens can’t overcome our terrible owners, GM and coach.

I’m in full agreement with you.

Yeah, this has become clearer and clearer every year. We have known that for a long time with Melnyk but Dorion was given the benefit of the doubt for a while even though his first trade was Mika Zibanejad + 2nd for Derick Brassard (6 years older)

 

[NyQuil]

The power forward curve is always tricky to predict and plan for because the start up time takes so long, the peak is relatively brief in many cases and if unlucky there may be injury issues. That 25-28 year old Brady will be a beast though.

Tough for you guys at this point in the season to be in the twilight zone of waiting until the post-season and hoping that everyone just stays healthy.

 

[TheFinalWord]

I understand your affinity for the first round and why you may not be familiar with the process but when you when you win your first round matchup you then advance and get to play another team, and if your stars don't fold and are successful you end up facing 4 different opponents in total. Its how the playoffs work.

I can't believe some Leaf fans are talking playoff smack! On what leg?! lol

The only guaranteed way the Leafs can win the first round is if they play Ottawa. History, right?

 

[umma gumma]

The only guaranteed way the Leafs can win the first round is if they play Ottawa. History, right?

Sure, you can hang your hat on that...its all you have to show for the last 20 years.

 

[TheFinalWord]

Sure, you can hang your hat on that...its all you have to show for the last 20 years.

As opposed the banners hanging in Ottawa?

 

[umma gumma]

As opposed the banners hanging in Ottawa?

That and I've witnessed my team participate in a Stanley Cup final on colour TV

 

[LeafsNation75]

Doubling down on your moronic comment well done.

Yes or no did the media not use the phrase "Summer of Dorion" to describe the Senators offseason moves?

Yeah and the younger Tkachuk makes 8 million and is signed for 5 more seasons after this one. Marner makes 11 and is signed for 2 more. Maths hard.

Using that logic with Tkachuk being younger than Marner, I guess if Connor McDavid becomes a UFA no teams should sign him since he's also order and was in the same draft class as Marner.

 

[notbias]

I would be curious to see counter-arguments to this argument :

Marner is on pace for 95 pts at $10,903,000 AAV
Tkachuk is on pace for 84 pts at $8,205,714 AAV

13% more production for 33% more cap

Hyman > McDavid

Using your logic.

 

[Xspyrit]

Hyman > McDavid

Do you really need to be explained what is wrong here?

 

[notbias]

Do you really need to be explained what is wrong here?

Is it just your logic or more?

 

[Xspyrit]

Is it just your logic or more?

47 of Hyman points have been collected with McDavid on the ice (and Draisaitl)

You're making a silly baseless comparison of players playing on different teams vs a 30 y/o player having the luxury of playing with one of the best forwards of all-time (and another great one in Draisaitl)

Hyman was also quite productive as a complementary forward to Matthews and Marner. It just went up a notch playing with McDavid and Draisaitl.

Or are you trying to say that Tkachuk has been spoon fed by rookies? Because that's with rookies he mostly has been playing the last several years.

It's not just MY logic, it's the universe logic

 

[notbias]

47 of Hyman points have been collected with McDavid on the ice (and Draisaitl)

You're making a silly baseless comparison of players playing on different teams vs a 30 y/o player having the luxury of playing with one of the best forwards of all-time (and another great one in Draisaitl)

Hyman was also quite productive as a complementary forward to Matthews and Marner. it just went up a notch playing with McDavid and Draisaitl.

Or are you trying to say Tkachuk has been spoon fed by rookies? Because that's with rookies he mostly has been playing the last several years.

It's not just MY logic, it's the universe logic

point per cap hit is not really a great way to judge a player.

Pastrnak > McDavid
Thompson > McDavid
A lot of ELCs > McDavid

Konecny > Tkachuk
Necas > Tkachuk
Dubois > Tkachuk
Nylander > Tkachuk

 

[Dekes For Days]

Yeah I never responded to your other post because frankly this is such a waste of time.

In other words, you have no response.

The fact that you still come up with "You have agreed the differences are significant" (I NEVER DID)

Except you did. When I called you out on trying to dismiss the offensive gap between them, you literally said the words ""Closing the gap offensively" doesn't mean 9 pts is "insignificant"". Something can only be significant or insignificant. If you're agreeing that it's not insignificant, then that's the same as agreeing that it's significant.

You also said the words "It's obvious that the discussion only happens IF Tkachuk keeps up with Marner production this season... If it doesn't happen, then it's still Marner by a significant margin" Tkachuk has not kept up with Marner's production this season, so according to your own statement, "it's still Marner by a significant margin". And yet here you are, still arguing.

now you're trying to deflect it on me by using the victim card when the only thing I have said is that you have reading comprehension problems

You keep accusing other people of having reading comprehension problems, while calling them "intellectually dishonest" and "homers", when none of that is remotely true. If anybody is displaying that, it's you. Try having an actual discussion without insulting the other side whenever you're proven wrong.

The conversation could have ended there, a perfectly diplomatic answer but you decided to reply with "He's factually not on Marner's level"

What I actually said was "Tkachuk is a great player. Would love to have him. He's factually not on Marner's level." Interesting how you cut out the compliments. Everything I said there is accurate, and the conversation could have ended there, but you decided to reply, dismiss everything about Marner, and make random guarantees about things you can't guarantee, to justify it.

Then no matter what facts I would bring, you still came up with :

You didn't bring up any facts. I brought up all of the facts. Marner is better offensively. Marner is better defensively. Marner also brings additional impacts on top that Tkachuk does not.
Then you tried to dismiss pretty much everything, make up hypothetical scenarios, and give Tkachuk a bunch of bonus points for that and for being big, even though any meaningful impacts from being big were already counted in the metrics. And then make silly polls when this one didn't give you the answer you wanted.

Wait, what the hell does that even mean?

Go read through your own thread.

Marner is on pace for 95 pts at $10,903,000 AAV
Tkachuk is on pace for 84 pts at $8,205,714 AAV

13% more production for 33% more cap

Except not only are you comparing a career high pace for one to the lowest pace in years for the other - which paints a very misleading picture of the significant gap between them offensively - but you're also again dismissing the other significant impacts that Marner brings and Tkachuk does not, to misrepresent Tkachuk as more valuable when he's not. Marner is easily worth that difference in cap hit, and you don't trade the better player for the worse player to save a couple mil. I also don't really care about you trying to skew the results with term, when Marner is likely a Leaf for life.

By your logic, Horvat's contract is only 3.6% higher and Horvat is producing 7.8% higher this year, so obviously you'd trade Tkachuk for Horvat, right? Or maybe it's not that simplistic.

 

[LeafsNation75]

You didn't bring up any facts. I brought up all of the facts. Marner is better offensively. Marner is better defensively. Marner also brings additional impacts on top that Tkachuk does not.

Best example is how Marner plays on the Leafs #1 penalty kill line and Tkachuk never plays when the Senators are shorthanded.