Tribute Brad Treliving - offseason so far

[notbias]

It was a hell of a 2:47

I don't disagree

We can go on and on about Treliving but I think he deserves more than just 1 rushed off season before we judge him.
Don’t forget Dubas had 5 years to make something out of this core/team and all he managed was 1 playoff round. Also don’t forget his team was beaten by a bloody Zamboni driver in net for the other team.
It’s time to admit Dubas was a dumpster fire

Treliving had 7 seasons of failure before Toronto.

I think most people are willing to give him a shot but don't like what they saw in Calgary and what they are seeing currently.

 

[Racer88]

I don't disagree



Treliving had 7 seasons of failure before Toronto.

I think most people are willing to give him a shot but don't like what they saw in Calgary and what they are seeing currently.

That was then this is now. If you are holding out hope that this ineffective core can finally win some rounds maybe there is hope for Treliving

 

[francis246]

Most games, goals, and points in franchise history.

1st overall pick at a time when the franchise needed a new star.

3 Finals. 2 Cups.

A special connection with fans.

It's cute if you want to pretend he was never important, but Tampa fans loudly disagree with you.

He's significantly more important to Tampa than Marner is to the Leafs - if Tampa can walk him to the edge, twice, there's no reason why the Leafs can't do the same with a player who has achieved considerably less, and doesn't have the same connection to this fanbase.


Thought it went without saying that I was talking about a poor return on a trade, not a bad trade, but there's your clarification.

Stamkos has always been expendable to Tampa’s management. They’ve let him walk to UFA twice. They won 2 cups without him making an impact.

 

[jaric1862]

C+

Negative:
- They should've spent the OEL/Liljergren money to secure a legit top-4 guy. They're still missing another top four defenceman short.
- Forward core in the exact same (and was very flawed last year) ... Not enough defensively responsible players. They suck on the PK. depth scoring is suspect. The core four will need to be spectacular once again (i.e. Matthews 70 goals, Nylander 100 points, Marner well above PPG, Tavares cannot fall off a cliff).

Pros:
- Tanev is the exact type of Defenceman we need.
- Hakanpaa is solid, if he plays.
- Domi signing is solid. He was a big part of the team's identity last year.
- There is a lot of room on the roster next year for young guys to grow. Not only prospects like Cowan and Minten, but for players like Knies, Benoit, Lilly, Woll, Dewar, Holmberg, Robertson (if he stays).

 

[JEI]

Upgraded D although I would have matched the Matt Roy deal (apparently they were interested but didn't want to match Washington's terms).

Like Stolarz addition.

Surprised Marners still around. Surprised they didn't make more trades until this point.

 

[notDatsyuk]

Nurse is not very good. Trouba not very good. Laine not very good. Mitch is objectively more expensive than he delivers but he is a legit star in this league and they don't need to retain and take a declining player with a big salary to deal him.

You can for sure do better than by taking a bad player in return. The retention is possible tho and if that increases the possible trade partners and/or the return do it. Meier brought a 1st, a conditional 2nd, and one of the Devils best prospects and Timo was a pure late season rental at the time. Marner's floor for a trade return is better than that and they will have space to do a TDL add when the time comes. That is still what I would call a weak return but they can work with it.

Treating him as an own rental shouldn't be an option because what if the unbalanced roster fails early again? Can they risk that? Shanny gone, Tre maybe. You would think after his speech that a sense of self p[reservation would compel BS to do more than just look at real changes.

Unless people actually think it isn't an unbalanced roster and its all Sheldon's fault(maybe true but the time to experiment with that was last year).

You missed the point.

If the only trade offered was Marner at 30% retained + a 1st for Nurse, is that better than no trade?

(I know Nurse is not very good, which is why I used him.)

 

[notDatsyuk]

Thought it went without saying that I was talking about a poor return on a trade, not a bad trade, but there's your clarification.

Where do you draw the line between 'poor' and 'bad'?

Yes the 'extreme example' I posted is particularly poor, and deliberately so.

That's a poor deal - is it better than no deal?

 

[notDatsyuk]

C+

Negative:
- They should've spent the OEL/Liljergren money to secure a legit top-4 guy. They're still missing another top four defenceman short.
- Forward core in the exact same (and was very flawed last year) ... Not enough defensively responsible players. They suck on the PK. depth scoring is suspect. The core four will need to be spectacular once again (i.e. Matthews 70 goals, Nylander 100 points, Marner well above PPG, Tavares cannot fall off a cliff).

Pros:
- Tanev is the exact type of Defenceman we need.
- Hakanpaa is solid, if he plays.
- Domi signing is solid. He was a big part of the team's identity last year.
- There is a lot of room on the roster next year for young guys to grow. Not only prospects like Cowan and Minten, but for players like Knies, Benoit, Lilly, Woll, Dewar, Holmberg, Robertson (if he stays).

I generally agree.

The only issue I have, and it's with a lot of posters, is the idea that it's a negative that he hasn't (yet) managed to trade an overpaid player with a full NMC. I would class that as a real positive if he had managed to do it, but not a negative if he doesn't, considering the situation.

 

[notDatsyuk]

Upgraded D although I would have matched the Matt Roy deal (apparently they were interested but didn't want to match Washington's terms).

Like Stolarz addition.

Surprised Marners still around. Surprised they didn't make more trades until this point.

I'm not. How easy is it to trade a $9M player with an $11M contract and full NMC? Particularly when he's reportedly looking for $12.5M next year.

I expect to see trades before the season starts.

 

[Phion Keneuf]

I’d give him a solid B

Not much to work with assuming Marner doesn’t want to waive that NMC

 

[Mess]

Realistically, Berube has the task of making it work with marner.

Putting ? - Matthews - marner out there every playoffs has not worked.

It is even impacting Matthews, who has scored less than Nylander over the past 5 playoffs.

Matthews mostly an all around player, but he's paid to score goals.

Berube's on-deck.

Coach Babcock already knew Matthews & Marner together was a NO GO and balanced his offense and kept them apart.. Babs knew he had to bury him down the line-up to force easier matchups.

2017-18 regular season and playoffs and Balanced Top 9

Hyman (15) ---- Matthews (34 in 62 games) -- Nylander (20) ....... = 69 goals
Marleau (27) --- Kadri (32) -------------------- Brown (14) ............. =73 goals
JVR (36) ------- Bozak (11) -------------------- Marner (22) ........... = 69 goals

Marner BEST playoffs 7 games 2 goals 7 assists 9 points at age 20 in year #2.

Berube is a smart guy with a proven playoff track record.

McMann ---- Domi ---- Marner (3rd line) play him against other teams 3rd line and 2nd and 3rd pairing Dmen.

 

[Racer88]

I'm not. How easy is it to trade a $9M player with an $11M contract and full NMC? Particularly when he's reportedly looking for $12.5M next year.

I expect to see trades before the season starts.

Yup. The spectre of the 12.5 and up long term deal hanging over Marners head is the stuff nightmares are made of

 

[notbias]

McMann ---- Domi ---- Marner (3rd line) play him against other teams 3rd line and 2nd and 3rd pairing Dmen.

Are they going to pass it into the net?

 

[Dreakmur]

you think the increases for Knies and McCabe will total $11M? What numbers do you think we sign them for?

Woll takes 3 of the 11 off the bat, so you’re down to 8 million to pay raise to Knies and McCabe… and then also pay the #2 center, whether that’s Tavares at a discount or a new player

 

[Dreakmur]

C+

Negative:
- They should've spent the OEL/Liljergren money to secure a legit top-4 guy. They're still missing another top four defenceman short.

Yes, that would have been better, but it sounds like that wasn’t an option. They pursued Matt Roy, but couldn’t match Washington’s overpay. He and Tanev were the only good options.

They could have overpaid for Zadorov too I guess.

After that fell through, they went with OEL and Liljegren.

- Forward core in the exact same (and was very flawed last year) ... Not enough defensively responsible players. They suck on the PK. depth scoring is suspect. The core four will need to be spectacular once again (i.e. Matthews 70 goals, Nylander 100 points, Marner well above PPG, Tavares cannot fall off a cliff).

Not enough defensive players, but let’s unload Kampf and Jarnkrok at all costs!

 

[Nineteen67]

I am not disagreeing with term being an issue, but what are examples of deals or moves that were made this off-season that don't come with this risk?

I think he minimized risk quite well. Tanev took long term to minimize the AAV. He will LTIR when it becomes an issue.

Tanev, OEL and Haakanpaa signed for less than Lyubushkin, Edmundson and Brodie did. That's some good work.

Oh, I would go B+.

We have improved the D, the G and kept the F together while creating room for kids to contribute. We also overhauled the coaching staff.

If they’re ever in a position to compete for the East I think the Tanev contract will be in the way.

 

[Nineteen67]

you think the increases for Knies and McCabe will total $11M? What numbers do you think we sign them for?

The three of them make roughly 13.9 now, if they sign all three it’ll be real close to that 13.9. Even if they don’t sign JT his replacement will eat up a chunk.

 

[Tak7]

Where do you draw the line between 'poor' and 'bad'?

Yes the 'extreme example' I posted is particularly poor, and deliberately so.

That's a poor deal - is it better than no deal?

The return in a trade.

 

[tuckerintensity]

I'd love to hear an argument of how he was very important for their cup runs.

Start with the one where he played 3 minutes for the entire playoffs.

Of course he was important (most players on a cup winning team are), but as a secondary scorer

The second cup run he was ineffective at 5v5, only a PP threat and played less than 8 other forwards.

Dude, you said that "Stamkos was never important to Tampa." That's an insane take and it's shocking that anyone is even entertaining it in a conversation because it so objectively horrible. He's one of the most important players in Lightning history (if not the most important). Now that's a discussion, albeit for another thread and area of this forum, Marty or Steven.

Not quite as wild, but also hits pretty high on the unintentional comedy scale, is suggesting that because he only played 2:47 in the 2020 Final, that proves he wasn't important. It actually shows the opposite. His team felt his presence was so important they decided to play him knowing they'd be lucky if he gave them 5-10 minutes. Oh ya, and he scored a big goal in his limited time.

This take is bonkers. Totally nuts. No ifs, ands, or buts.

 

[notDatsyuk]

The return in a trade.

So now answer the real question.

 

[ULF_55]

If they’re ever in a position to compete for the East I think the Tanev contract will be in the way.

If they're ever in a position to compete for the East Tanev may be the reason why.

 

[notbias]

Dude, you said that "Stamkos was never important to Tampa." That's an insane take and it's shocking that anyone is even entertaining it in a conversation because it so objectively horrible. He's one of the most important players in Lightning history (if not the most important). Now that's a discussion, albeit for another thread and area of this forum, Marty or Steven.

He is important to the franchise, he didn't do much for their cups.

I am discussing their success.

Not quite as wild, but also hits pretty high on the unintentional comedy scale, is suggesting that because he only played 2:47 in the 2020 Final, that proves he wasn't important. It actually shows the opposite. His team felt his presence was so important they decided to play him knowing they'd be lucky if he gave them 5-10 minutes. Oh ya, and he scored a big goal in his limited time.

This take is bonkers. Totally nuts. No ifs, ands, or buts.

Do you think they played him knowing he'd be injured again? Interesting. I think you're just lying.

You can go read other articles, but there are ones that have quotes saying things like this:

What’s so admirable about what Stamkos did was he demonstrated his commitment to the cause. Not by playing injured, but by putting in the work to get healthy enough to play. It was everything preceding this that gives it its weight. There was no guarantee Tampa would be playing this late in September, but he put in months in the bubble when he didn’t have to. Surely the team would’ve been understanding if he opted out, or if he said “We’ll see if you guys are in it in a month and maybe I’ll join then.”


Stamkos put in tons of rehab hours. He led a team as captain as best he could without being able to play, and when there was a chance he’d be able to, he was willing to take risk walking back that progress for his teammates, for the staff, for the Tampa fans, and for the Stanley Cup. It’s all right here for them now.

Doesn't sound like it is common knowledge that the team risked his longterm health for 5 minutes of play.

 

[JEI]

I'm not. How easy is it to trade a $9M player with an $11M contract and full NMC? Particularly when he's reportedly looking for $12.5M next year.

I expect to see trades before the season starts.

Well yah the full NMC does pose a hurdle, but after the season ended I thought he'd be willing to just get the hell out of Toronto - hence the surprise. I don't think it's necessarily hard if you open up your options to be traded. He's a top RW in the league so I think there are a number of teams that would be willing to add that type of name recognition to their roster if for nothing else but to sell jerseys and tickets - but Marner would have to agree obviously (which he doesn't seem inclined to do).

I had assumed there may had been a deal in place to move him after July 1st bonus was paid out since his actual salary is below league minimum now (775k). I'm sure Tre would have angled to have more cap room flexibility by moving Marner on July 1st to add to his defensive core..now if it happens its more of a hockey deal.

Ultimately it sounds like Marner doesn't want to move. Tre doesn't want to give him away. And I'm sure someone will be giving him 11+ million come July 1st and that team will rave about getting a top RW in the league for 7years.

 

[Nineteen67]

If they're ever in a position to compete for the East Tanev may be the reason why.

Maybe, hopefully he ages like Chelios or Chara and is still productive at age 37.

 

[tuckerintensity]

He is important to the franchise, he didn't do much for their cups.

I am discussing their success.

Dude...

Stamkos was never important to Tampa... Tampa proved that when he was injured.

Stamkos also has worse stats than Marner and is not great defensively.

Not saying Marner is doing amazing things, just that Stamkos was nothing to Tampa.

Do you think they played him knowing he'd be injured again? Interesting. I think you're just lying.

I think, like any rational person who isn't 12 posts deep into an absolutely atrocious take they are unwilling to admit is atrocious, that they knew a guy who had been off that long could only give them 5-10 minutes that night. And that they thought him playing that little was still a big deal to them (because this is exactly what their logic was as he was slated to, and did, play on the fourth line). No, they didn't think he would re-injure himself and neither did he, but they did think that a minimal contribution from him was very important. Could have something to do with the 66 points in 57 games he had in the regular season. Maybe.

Honestly though, none of that means a hill of beans. Steven Stamkos is hugely important to the Tampa Bay Lighting, not "never important to Tampa" as you very plainly said.