Tribute Brad Treliving - offseason so far

[notbias]

Dude...

You posted something where I specifically referenced him being injured as an example... Do you think I was talking about the importance to the franchise based on him not being available to the team?

I don't think anyone can be that bad at comprehension, this is you trying to build an argument that didn't exist after realizing you are wrong.

I think, like any rational person who isn't 12 posts deep into an absolutely atrocious take they are unwilling to admit is atrocious, that they knew a guy who had been off that long could only give them 5-10 minutes that night. And that they thought him playing that little was still a big deal to them (because this is exactly what their logic was as he was slated to, and did, play on the fourth line). No, they didn't think he would re-injure himself and neither did he, but they did think that a minimal contribution from him was very important. Could have something to do with the 66 points in 57 games he had in the regular season. Maybe.

They won without him playing, explain how he was important that year.

I don't know how you are trying to argue this, it is stupid.

Honestly though, none of that means a hill of beans. Steven Stamkos is hugely important to the Tampa Bay Lighting, not "never important to Tampa" as you very plainly said.

He is important to the franchise, was not a factor at all in one cup, and in the other was a PP player and unimportant outside of that.

Argue the second cup if you want, but he was barely a factor in that playoff.

He had the lowest TOI out of all forwards not on the 4th line, but yes, he was insanely important to Tampa's success.

I'm just assuming you're a new fan at this point who didn't watch the cup runs those years.

 

[ULF_55]

Maybe, hopefully he ages like Chelios or Chara and is still productive at age 37.

I think we accept he's going to have a bad Cap situation later in his deal.

 

[Nineteen67]

I think we accept he's going to have a bad Cap situation later in his deal.

But he has to be available and productive from 25/26 through 26/27 seasons. If he’s not then it becomes a terrible signing.

 

[ULF_55]

But he has to be available and productive from 25/26 through 26/27 seasons. If he’s not then it becomes a terrible signing.

3 years shouldn't be an issue unless he falls on his own sword.

Years 4, 5, and 6 are pipe dreams.

 

[Nineteen67]

3 years shouldn't be an issue unless he falls on his own sword.

Years 4, 5, and 6 are pipe dreams.

If he’s really good in three years when they’re potentially taking a run at the Eastern conference, then it’ll be worth it. I’m not convinced he will.

 

[keonsbitterness]

He is important to the franchise, he didn't do much for their cups.

One thing is for sure: he'll always have the honour of scoring the most iconic goal in either Cup run.

 

[notbias]

One thing is for sure: he'll always have the honour of scoring the most iconic goal in either Cup run.

His 3 mins on the ice was amazing... not arguing that.

 

[conFABulator]

Woll takes 3 of the 11 off the bat, so you’re down to 8 million to pay raise to Knies and McCabe… and then also pay the #2 center, whether that’s Tavares at a discount or a new player

Right. So, Knies and McCabe will not be taking the entire $11M from the Tavares contract ending.

Woll - $3M
Knies - $2.5M
McCabe - $2M
#2 C - $2.5M + cap increase of $4 or $5M

My comment was questioning the poster saying that it would all go to Knies and McCabe.

It's actually pretty good. If we like the team and where it is going we can keep it together.

Also, we need some spots to be filled by players on ELCs if Minten, Cowan, Grebenkin, Tverberg, or Hirvonen mean we can walk away from Kampf and Jarnkrok that adds another $3M to spend. If Niemela becomes a player we can save a couple million on Liljegren or McCabe.

 

[conFABulator]

If they’re ever in a position to compete for the East I think the Tanev contract will be in the way.

I think it is just as likely that Tanev is a reason they are competing for the East.

If he is not healthy, he is LTIR. It's not in the way. If he is healthy in year three or four he is still contributing (on and off ice) and eating $4.5M of what will be a $100M cap.

I would have preferred less AAV and less term. It's not terrible thoughz we just lived through it with Muzzin.

The three of them make roughly 13.9 now, if they sign all three it’ll be real close to that 13.9. Even if they don’t sign JT his replacement will eat up a chunk.

Right. So, Knies and McCabe will not be taking the entire $11M from the Tavares contract ending.

Woll - $3M
Knies - $2.5M
McCabe - $2M
#2 C - $2.5M + cap increase of $4 or $5M

My comment was questioning your statement saying that it would all go to Knies and McCabe.

It's actually pretty good. If we like the team and where it is going we can keep it together.

Also, we need some spots to be filled by players on ELCs if Minten, Cowan, Grebenkin, Tverberg, or Hirvonen mean we can walk away from Kampf and Jarnkrok that adds another $3M to spend. If Niemela becomes a player we can save a couple million on Liljegren or McCabe.

 

[Nineteen67]

I think it is just as likely that Tanev is a reason they are competing for the East.

If he is not healthy, he is LTIR. It's not in the way. If he is healthy in year three or four he is still contributing (on and off ice) and eating $4.5M of what will be a $100M cap.

I would have preferred less AAV and less term. It's not terrible thoughz we just lived through it with Muzzin.


Right. So, Knies and McCabe will not be taking the entire $11M from the Tavares contract ending.

Woll - $3M
Knies - $2.5M
McCabe - $2M
#2 C - $2.5M + cap increase of $4 or $5M

My comment was questioning your statement saying that it would all go to Knies and McCabe.

It's actually pretty good. If we like the team and where it is going we can keep it together.

Also, we need some spots to be filled by players on ELCs if Minten, Cowan, Grebenkin, Tverberg, or Hirvonen mean we can walk away from Kampf and Jarnkrok that adds another $3M to spend. If Niemela becomes a player we can save a couple million on Liljegren or McCabe.

Doesn’t McCabe make 2 million now? He’ll double that. I’m guessing Knies on a bridge will be more than 2.5.

 

[conFABulator]

Doesn’t McCabe make 2 million now? He’ll double that. I’m guessing Knies on a bridge will be more than 2.5.

Yes, but you only have to account for the INCREASE in their salaries. Their existing salaries are already in our cost/cap structure.

If we free up $11M from JT and add $5M to the cap, this means we have $16M more to spend than what we are currently spending. My calculations have McCabe at $4M (an additional $2M) and Knies at around $3.5M (an addition $2.5M).

Also, I like the idea of re-signing JT at 2.5 or 3 as our third line centre and moving one of Marner or Nylander to 2C (not Domi).

In fact, we will really change our cap outlook if we don't need to find a 2C from outside the organization. Things work a lot better for us if two of our $11M+ guys are C (Matthews and one of Marner or Nylander). It works even better if they both shift to C. We have Knies, Domi, McMann, Cowan, Grebenkin, Robertson and cap space for wingers.

Cowan Matthews Domi
Tavares Marner Knies
Robertson Nylander McMann
Holmberg Minten Grebenkin

Or

Robertson Matthew Domi
Tavares Nylander Marner
Cowan Minten Knies
McMann Holmberg Grebenkin

In either scenario we have cap space to augment. We just need some of the kids to develop and contribute.

The same is true if Hildeby and Niemela can play roles while on ELCs.

 

[Captain Crunch]

I'm just laying out the facts.

Tre had no say in the signings? Source? A comment at a press conference wouldn't count.



He followed up the signing of Klingberg (right idea, wrong player), by bringing in offensive blackholes on the backend, I have no clue what he was thinking, his pre-season plan and then deadline plan contradict each other.

Klingberg has sucked for a while and the injury was a good thing because he was overpaid and bad.



OEL is a gamble, and I am fine with it.

The term sucks for a gamble though.

Tanev is a bigger gamble, he can fall off any minute (Brodie is a good example of a great D turning bad).

Is Tanev better than Brodie was? Anything to back up that claim?

If Tanev starts to fall off and wants to continue playing, we have an issue.



Source?



Kampf was signed by Treliving, more misinformation.



There is currently one roster spot on forward open and a bunch of RFAs who were qualified.

I would like to see us play some of the kids, but unless they make some moves, I don't see it.

Was idiotic to sign Reaves because I doubt they'd send him to the minors, which would be nice because it'll open up some more space for young talent.

Yes, that was wrong on my part to say that Tre had no say in getting Matthews and Nylander signed to new contracts as he was the one who said that the Leafs' top 2 priorities were to get those two signed. So he did in fact say it. What I'm saying is, that directive came straight from Shanahan. Here is my reason (no, it's not a fact, but you tell me your "facts") why. Shanahan (and Dubas while he was here) always made changes around the core, but never to the core, despite their constant playoff failures. He fired Dubas after he had been the GM for 5 seasons. He then hires Tre as the new GM. My opinion, which by the way is also only what you have, is that Shanahan had already made that call that those two were to be resigned to new contracts.

As for Tre bringing in, as you said, more offensive black holes on the defense, here were the top UFA dmen available last summer (the list also includes both forwards and goalies as I could not find a list specifically for dmen only):

PHR's 2023 Top 50 NHL Unrestricted Free Agents

Originally published June 27, 2023 The 2023 offseason is in full swing with the trade market as hot as ever …

www.prohockeyrumors.com

So who would you have recommended, keeping in mind the limited amount of cap space that would have been available?

You mean besides the fact that Tanev is a rhd who is solid in his own end, blocks a ton of shots, is physical, great on the PK, and just had an incredible playoffs (19 GP, +7, 1:48 SH)? No, I can't think of anything. Lol

 

[Captain Crunch]

Horrible first year for Treliving followed by a horrible offseason so far.

Fewer wins, less points, and out a round earlier. There are no mental gymnastics, voodoo stats, or baseless intangible hocus pocus that can change those facts. If they take another step backwards again this year that would mean missing the playoffs.

The worst showing yet since Matthews was drafted.

I think it's easier for desperate fans to defend Treliving than accept he's a worse GM than Dubas. The fact Dubas was so terrible they're probably still shell shocked. Accepting the reality of the current situation is extremely disheartening.

We all know it won't be long until Treliving adds something else dumb onto the rapidly growing list of dumb things he's done since getting hired.

It's just been one bad move after another. This offseason has been a comedy of errors. From signing Tanev, to overpaying on all those raises, to handing out NTC's to everyone on the team.

I can't wait to see how badly he screws up the rest of the year.

I did not like Dubas, but I dislike Shanahan even more! He is the one ultimately responsible for what Dubas did in his time here, and for what Tre did last summer.

So by comedy of errors you mean like how the defense has been improved by a lot? What Tre did last summer is on Shanahan, even the Kampf contract! I, for one, am quite pleased with what he has done so far this summer (the position Marner is in with his NMC is, again, all on Shanahan)!

 

[Tak7]

Right. So, Knies and McCabe will not be taking the entire $11M from the Tavares contract ending.

Woll - $3M
Knies - $2.5M
McCabe - $2M
#2 C - $2.5M + cap increase of $4 or $5M

My comment was questioning the poster saying that it would all go to Knies and McCabe.

It's actually pretty good. If we like the team and where it is going we can keep it together.

Also, we need some spots to be filled by players on ELCs if Minten, Cowan, Grebenkin, Tverberg, or Hirvonen mean we can walk away from Kampf and Jarnkrok that adds another $3M to spend. If Niemela becomes a player we can save a couple million on Liljegren or McCabe.

I'm assuming your talking about value of the raise here?

Because Woll's extension is $3.6M and McCabe isn't signing for $2M lol.

The Tavares money is gone.

 

[Nineteen67]

I did not like Dubas, but I dislike Shanahan even more! He is the one ultimately responsible for what Dubas did in his time here, and for what Tre did last summer.

So by comedy of errors you mean like how the defense has been improved by a lot? What Tre did last summer is on Shanahan, even the Kampf contract! I, for one, am quite pleased with what he has done so far this summer (the position Marner is in with his NMC is, again, all on Shanahan)!

The D has improved, but has it improved enough to matter? Are they any closer to the Eastern final? Are the teams behind them gaining ground? If and when TB, Boston and Florida finally take a few steps back will the Leafs be one of teams filling the void?

 

[The Masters]

Once u realize the org. is focused on money first, then it all makes sense. I personally cant stand this management nor do I think this off-season was any good. They knew they were all full of crap at that presser and now its back to their cycle of putting the same failed product back on the ice.

https://x.com/i/web/status/1810992364128760276

 

[Roo]

Doesn’t McCabe make 2 million now? He’ll double that. I’m guessing Knies on a bridge will be more than 2.5.

McCabe is actually $4m now with half retained by CHI, bringing the hit down to $2m for us. He isn’t getting resigned for under $5m, in my opinion, and it could be closer to $6m.

Knies is the wild card. If he takes a big step forward this year, the team could easily opt to extend him long term at a higher aav.

Tavares $$ is spoken for. New spend will come from a cap increase and moving out other players for guys on elc like Cowan.

 

[Stephen]

Once u realize the org. is focused on money first, then it all makes sense. I personally cant stand this management nor do I think this off-season was any good. They knew they were all full of crap at that presser and now its back to their cycle of putting the same failed product back on the ice.

https://x.com/i/web/status/1810992364128760276

The organization is ruled more by risk aversion than a “money first” mentality. Time and again they’ve demonstrated a willingness to spend, but a general paralysis in terms of being proactive in management to disturb something they think is working.. but isn’t.

 

[Captain Crunch]

The D has improved, but has it improved enough to matter? Are they any closer to the Eastern final? Are the teams behind them gaining ground? If and when TB, Boston and Florida finally take a few steps back will the Leafs be one of teams filling the void?

I believe it has improved enough to matter. Of course like anything else, a lot will depend on Tanev staying healthy as well as OEL replacing Mo on PP1. The rest of it we owe to Shanahan and Marner's NMC and salary. I am 99.9% sure he will be back this season because of it (I cannot think of one team who would be willing to trade a significant player for him). The hope there is we will see a different Marner who will be determined to show every team that he is worthy of his contract, as well as what he will be expecting to get on his next one.

If he can be that player, including in the playoffs, then I will be okay with that. However, if they were to resign him, then they would have to trade Nylander who has proven the last few years that he can perform in the playoffs. But that may never happen anyway, so for now I am okay. They still need a 2/3C and at least one more top 4 rhd, but they do not have the cap space to do that. Therefore I'm hoping a trade will happen, but to do so they would have to trade Kampf and/or Jarnkrok, which would not be easy to do.

 

[Nineteen67]

McCabe is actually $4m now with half retained by CHI, bringing the hit down to $2m for us. He isn’t getting resigned for under $5m, in my opinion, and it could be closer to $6m.

Knies is the wild card. If he takes a big step forward this year, the team could easily opt to extend him long term at a higher aav.

Tavares $$ is spoken for. New spend will come from a cap increase and moving out other players for guys on elc like Cowan.

That’s right, I forgot about the retention. He’s most likely gone so they should consider trading him at the deadline.

 

[Captain Crunch]

Re-signing him isn't the only option - letting him walk and using the $12.5x8 more efficiently is quite likely a better option than overpaying him again, or taking a poor return in a trade.

If Marner has a monster season and continues it in the playoffs, I would be okay with resigning him and trading Nylander. However, all these NMCs are proving to make any trades extremely difficult.

 

[Captain Crunch]

Poster sounded like keeping him was best option once JT comes off the books. I can see offers being less than market value but I would not expect "poor" offers. Question is how much of a loss are the Leafs willing to take over overpaying him? I do not think the Leafs can stomach allowing him to walk for nothing. They'd rather cave to his ask; the worst possible option IMO.

But depending on who the UFAs were next year, especially 2Cs and dmen, it could turn out more beneficial to let him walk. And having McMann stay healthy and continuing his strong 2-way game, as well as Knies expected improvement, this would also be a big bonus.

 

[Nineteen67]

I believe it has improved enough to matter. Of course like anything else, a lot will depend on Tanev staying healthy as well as OEL replacing Mo on PP1. The rest of it we owe to Shanahan and Marner's NMC and salary. I am 99.9% sure he will be back this season because of it (I cannot think of one team who would be willing to trade a significant player for him). The hope there is we will see a different Marner who will be determined to show every team that he is worthy of his contract, as well as what he will be expecting to get on his next one.

If he can be that player, including in the playoffs, then I will be okay with that. However, if they were to resign him, then they would have to trade Nylander who has proven the last few years that he can perform in the playoffs. But that may never happen anyway, so for now I am okay. They still need a 2/3C and at least one more top 4 rhd, but they do not have the cap space to do that. Therefore I'm hoping a trade will happen, but to do so they would have to trade Kampf and/or Jarnkrok, which would not be easy to do.

Both Marner and Nylander have not been good enough in the playoffs and have proven it multiple times. The odds of them sacrificing enough to get to the eastern final are very slim and we dont know if Berube can change their mindset. Marner will get paid regardless of playoff performance, and he’ll be fired up in the shinny seasons.

 

[ToneDog]

But depending on who the UFAs were next year, especially 2Cs and dmen, it could turn out more beneficial to let him walk. And having McMann stay healthy and continuing his strong 2-way game, as well as Knies expected improvement, this would also be a big bonus.

Agreed, just like if we had let Nylander walk this past year, we would have had almost $21.5m to go shopping on July 1, instead of $10m. You could have had your choice of two of the top 5 UFA dman available. Instead we had to overpay two dmen with lots of miles on them.

 

[Captain Crunch]

Not necessarily. As an extreme example, what if the only trade offered was Marner at 30% retained + a 1st for Nurse?


He's not leading the team, so maybe someone we can get in FA can lead better than Matty or Willy. Letting Mitch go isn't going to make the leadership worse.

Personally I feel that Tavares should retain the C for this season, not because I think he's the best candidate, but because I feel it do more harm than good for the team. After the season, provided McCabe continues his strong play, I would prefer he wore the C next.

Both Marner and Nylander have not been good enough in the playoffs and have proven it multiple times. The odds of them sacrificing enough to get to the eastern final are very slim and we dont know if Berube can change their mindset. Marner will get paid regardless of playoff performance, and he’ll be fired up in the shinny seasons.

Like I said, only if Marner also has a strong playoff. I disagree with what you're saying about Nylander. It's not that he has been great in the playoffs, but of the four I would say that he has been the best so far, at least in the last few playoffs.