Brad Treliving is doing a great job.

[Auston Escobar]

Just wanted to do a wellness check on everyone here. How are we living? We good?

I missed Kyle during free agency. Now I really miss Kyle

Bad UFAs signings were obviously dumb from day one, the “grit” was a lie and any Dubas hater who tried to defend Klingberg should go say sorry to their wife’s boyfriend.

At least Tre didn’t overpay our guys like glasses and stats boy! ($13.5Mx4).

 

[TimeZone]

Good catch. I didn't pay too much attention, because while the details are wrong, the core of the argument is right.

Depth chart vs salary chart, vs toi, easy mistake/miscommunication. to make. Vegas pays 14.05 on their 5-9F (Barbashev/Roy/Stephenson/Howden/Kolesar), Boston 10.3 (Debrusk/Frederic/Geekie/JVR/Lucic).

We're paying 14.25 for Bertuzzi/Domi/Kampf/Jarncrok/Reaves.

We don't need more money for winning depth F.

Bertuzzi and Domi are one year patches, there's no risk there.

How many of Barbashev, Stephenson, Howden, Kolesar, Roy were brought in through free agency?

It's not hard to imagine players being more enticed by the idea of signing in Vegas as opposed to Canada.

More importantly, when you have a top 3 D core in the league, you can afford to run a cheap fourth line. We don't have that luxury, our defense and goaltending absolutely blow.

 

[Martin Skoula]

William Karlsson plays on their third line at even strength. He is a high level penalty killer and gets PP time on top of it.

Make no mistake about it, he's playing on their third line.

You need to understand how lines are rolled, Debrusk bounces all over the place, spends a decent amount of time on the PP which accounts for his TOI.

You said "bottom six", unless of course you're of the belief the Golden Knights operate four PP units, I don't think you have a point here.

Now quick, do another one :

How many of the individuals mentioned above by yourself were drafted/developed or brought in via trade vs signed through free agency?

Go ahead.

Ok so if we run
Knies-Matthews-Marner
Robertson-Tavares-Jarnkrok
Bertuzzi-Domi-Nylander

All our problems should be fixed right? We now have a 15mil “3rd line” just like Vegas, even though we changed nothing about the roster we’re now spending more on the bottom 6 so the “top heavy” problem doesn’t exist anymore.

I don’t care what line on paper the sub-2.5 mil guys are playing on, the fact is we spend more on our 6 cheapest players than most other contenders do and get less value out of them than the others do. That’s the whole argument everyone makes, we spend too much on the big 4 so we can’t afford to spend on anyone else up front. But we can and we do. More than most other teams.

Lindholm and Towes were acquired for less than it would cost us to dump Klingberg and Kampf lol. Stephenson and Barbashev cost Dean and a 5th.

 

[TheRumble]

I'm still baffled how there are so many stupid people on this forum who are still blaming the top 4 for the problems when they are:

- Scoring the majority of the goals
- Playing PK, PP, 5v6, 6v5
- WE HAD 16 MILLION IN CAP SPACE IN THE SUMMER

Everyone here hates Marner because of his contract right? How much do you think he's overpaid by?

$1 million? There's Ryan Reaves for you

$2.5 million? That's David Kampf

$3 million? That's Max Domi

$4 million? There's John Klingberg

 

[4thline]

Bertuzzi and Domi are one year patches, there's no risk there.

They should also deliver commensurate value, or there was no point in signing them

How many of Barbashev, Stephenson, Howden, Kolesar, Roy were brought in through free agency?

Unless they're retained or on ELC, irrelevant. That's what teams are spending.



You can abolutely run a cheap 4th line. We've done it before. You just need the right players. ZAR/Gregor- Kampf- Lafferty would have been a great 4th line to eat some minutes without going -8 in 13 games.

But fine. Dubas was so incompetent that his superior replacement can't expected to put together a comparable team with the same core contracts and a higher cap, because well, it's just not fair- let's throw in the towel.

 

[thusk]

How long do you think a normal person would have needed to know Reaves was a terrible signing? I'd wager 15 mins and they could have figured it out. That was his first signing here and I am not even sure he has figured it out yet.

He talked a lot about bringing in "snot", so he seemed to think he had a grasp on what the team needed... too bad he appears to be wrong.

We analyze from hockey perpesctive only, its not the way gm working. They need to figure out what kind of impact those kind of player can have on the ice, on the locker room, with the rest of the team. Can he help to the priximity and team chemistry despite his hockey who are not there or whatever. "INTANGIBLE" the things we dont see fairly but still impact your team positively or negatively. Thats a thing, coach and gm will talk a lot about it... leadership, get player playing the right way with great attittude

 

[GoonieFace]

I'm still baffled how there are so many stupid people on this forum who are still blaming the top 4 for the problems when they are:

- Scoring the majority of the goals
- Playing PK, PP, 5v6, 6v5
- WE HAD 16 MILLION IN CAP SPACE IN THE SUMMER

Everyone here hates Marner because of his contract right? How much do you think he's overpaid by?

$1 million? There's Ryan Reaves for you

$2.5 million? That's David Kampf

$3 million? That's Max Domi

$4 million? There's John Klingberg

Marner is already overpaid, and when he asks for more on his next contract he will still be overpaid. It’s quite possible that in a year they will be paying their top 3 forwards $35 mil. Thats scary considering what they have accomplished

 

[TimeZone]

Ok so if we run
Knies-Matthews-Marner
Robertson-Tavares-Jarnkrok
Bertuzzi-Domi-Nylander

All our problems should be fixed right? We now have a 15mil “3rd line” just like Vegas, even though we changed nothing about the roster we’re now spending more on the bottom 6 so the “top heavy” problem doesn’t exist anymore.

I don’t care what line on paper the sub-2.5 mil guys are playing on, the fact is we spend more on our 6 cheapest players than most other contenders do and get less value out of them than the others do. That’s the whole argument everyone makes, we spend too much on the big 4 so we can’t afford to spend on anyone else up front. But we can and we do. More than most other teams.

Lindholm and Towes were acquired for less than it would cost us to dump Klingberg and Kampf lol.

I'm not exactly sure what point you're trying to make here. I think our top 9 is pretty good, as long as Domi and Robertson continue to show continued chemistry. I have more gripes with the 4th line, when you have players playing 8 minutes a game and they're a -7 through 13 games, that's a pretty significant problem.

As for your strawman -- No, as I've stated numerous times this team has many holes, two being their rapidly aging defense and horrific goaltending woes. Vegas has a top 3 D core in the NHL, we're closer to the bottom 5 than the top 5, I don't get the analogy.

Could you imagine teams being more enticed by playing in Vegas, Florida as opposed to Canada?

Could you also imagine overpaying some of your players significantly could have an impact on the demand of other players on the team?

Maybe you should care, you're the one attempting to the make the argument and distorting facts in the process.

The reality is we've failed to draft and develop players, as well as trade for significant impact players for a substation amount of time now, and that's how chanpionships are won in this league, not from bargin binning in through free agency.

You've now reached the point where you believe it would cost more than a first round pick, two second round picks to rid of the likes of 67 games of John Klingberg, excellent, this is really productive.

You doing okay?

 

[Racer88]

Ok so if we run
Knies-Matthews-Marner
Robertson-Tavares-Jarnkrok
Bertuzzi-Domi-Nylander

All our problems should be fixed right? We now have a 15mil “3rd line” just like Vegas, even though we changed nothing about the roster we’re now spending more on the bottom 6 so the “top heavy” problem doesn’t exist anymore.

I don’t care what line on paper the sub-2.5 mil guys are playing on, the fact is we spend more on our 6 cheapest players than most other contenders do and get less value out of them than the others do. That’s the whole argument everyone makes, we spend too much on the big 4 so we can’t afford to spend on anyone else up front. But we can and we do. More than most other teams.

Lindholm and Towes were acquired for less than it would cost us to dump Klingberg and Kampf lol. Stephenson and Barbashev cost Dean and a 5th.

You only mention the forwards. Where the problem lies is in the defence and goaltending where we do not have the money to upgrade because of 4 forwards are eating 50% of the cap

 

[TheRumble]

You only mention the forwards. Where the problem lies is in the defence and goaltending where we do not have the money to upgrade because of 4 forwards are eating 50% of the cap

We don't have the money to upgrade the team yet none of the blame goes to the 5 players taking $16 million in cap space to net 5 goals.

It's all Marner/Matthews/Tavares/Nylander's fault.

Absolute insanity. Whenever I wonder how Doug Ford was able to get elected twice, I just read this forum and get my answer.

 

[TimeZone]

They should also deliver commensurate value, or there was no point in signing them

Unless they're retained or on ELC, irrelevant. That's what teams are spending.



You can abolutely run a cheap 4th line. We've done it before. You just need the right players. ZAR/Gregor- Kampf- Lafferty would have been a great 4th line to eat some minutes without going -8 in 13 games.

But fine. Dubas was so incompetent that his superior replacement can't expected to put together a comparable team with the same core contracts and a higher cap, because well, it's just not fair- let's throw in the towel.

You say you haven't given up on them, then you deliver lines the top bolded where it makes me question whether that is the case.

Yes they should, and I haven't given up on the idea they can be productive for the Leafs as they continue to mesh on their new team.

Aston Reese is currently clinging to an AHL job where he currently has 0 points through 7 games and is a -4. Kampf has been a mess this season, he's an offensive black hole and has suddenly lost his ability to win draws, which is one of the only things he was actually good at in the firsy place. Lafferty I would have kept personally, I don't care much for dime a dozen Gregor.

Can we lay off with the ridiculous strawmans? I'm not saying Brad is doing great, I'm also not saying he's as bad as Dubas, as we simply don't have the sample size at this point.

The reality is I believe Shanahan is the one making the vast majority of calls from behind the scene and while I'm glad to see Dubas go, I'm not expecting many positives until there's a significant shake up of the core, as well as the management.

 

[TimeZone]

You only mention the forwards. Where the problem lies is in the defence and goaltending where we do not have the money to upgrade because of 4 forwards are eating 50% of the cap

Are you implying you don't think Mark Giordano is as good as Shea Theodore, Devon Toews or a Hampus Lindholm?

Are you going to tell me Samsonov isn't as good as Ullmark/Swayman next? Blasphemy.

 

[GoonieFace]

We don't have the money to upgrade the team yet none of the blame goes to the 5 players taking $16 million in cap space to net 5 goals.

It's all Marner/Matthews/Tavares/Nylander's fault.

Absolute insanity. Whenever I wonder how Doug Ford was able to get elected twice, I just read this forum and get my answer.

They’ve tried surrounding this core for years, how’s that worked out? Seems like a common thread

 

[4thline]

You say you haven't given up on them, then you deliver lines the top bolded where it makes me question whether that is the case.

The point is that we had the money. They're what we chose. If they deliver, and the bottom of the roster was chosen right, we should have an F group we can win with. No excuses.

Aston Reese is currently clinging to an AHL job where he currently has 0 points through 7 games and is a -4. Kampf has been a mess this season, he's an offensive black hole and has suddenly lost his ability to win draws, which is one of the only things he was actually good at.

Wait now, I thought previous years trumped small opening season sample sizes?

Can we lay off with the ridiculous strawmans? I'm not saying Brad is doing great, I'm also not saying he's as bad as Dubas, as we simply don't have the sample size at this point.

If he can't deliver a top end team he's objectively worse. The bar didn't get lowered.

 

[Bomber0104]

You only mention the forwards. Where the problem lies is in the defence and goaltending where we do not have the money to upgrade because of 4 forwards are eating 50% of the cap

There isn't a team that approaches Toronto's whopping $58M expenditure on forwards, that's roughly 70% of the entire cap on just the forwards.

Compare that to the premier teams right now in the NHL:

Vegas is running at $46M (roughly 55%)
Boston is running at $39.6M (roughly 47%)
LA is running at $48.7M (roughly 58%)
NYR is running at $44.4M (roughly 53%)
Carolina is running at $44.4M (roughly 54%)
Colorado is running at $48.7M (roughly 58%)

The sweet spot definitely seems to be in the mid-to-low-50% range.

 

[Martin Skoula]

You only mention the forwards. Where the problem lies is in the defence and goaltending where we do not have the money to upgrade because of 4 forwards are eating 50% of the cap

They spend about 3 mil total more on their 3 most expensive D than we do except they get 2 top pair D + good #3 (Makar + Towes, McAvoy + Lindholm, Pietro + Martinez) and we get Rielly, Brodie, and the worst defensive player in the league. Swapping Kampf + Reaves for Holmberg + pick any Marlie that wouldn’t be the worst forward in the league like Reaves would clear up the difference in spend.

Their 3 cheapest D come in at under 6 mil other than Colorado, we spend a mil and a bit less when healthy. Goalies are within 1.5 mil other than Boston because they’re running two upper end starters.

We need better players on D and G, spending more money doesn’t get you better players. Good scouting, trades, and sane UFA deals do.

Again even if Tavares disappeared tomorrow and we had 11 mil to spend, if Brad is the one spending it we’re not going to improve at all.

 

[TheRumble]

They’ve tried surrounding this core for years, how’s that worked out? Seems like a common thread

Yes, and it's been shown that you people are dumb and incorrect when everyone celebrated this off seasons signings.

Now you're somehow blaming the top 4 players for the failures of the newly acquired 4 players.

 

[BallardEra]

Curious to see what the OP thinks now. Not calling them out but just wondering if they still feel as confident as when they created the thread.

 

[notbias]

We analyze from hockey perpesctive only, its not the way gm working. They need to figure out what kind of impact those kind of player can have on the ice, on the locker room, with the rest of the team. Can he help to the priximity and team chemistry despite his hockey who are not there or whatever. "INTANGIBLE" the things we dont see fairly but still impact your team positively or negatively. Thats a thing, coach and gm will talk a lot about it... leadership, get player playing the right way with great attittude

Intangibles are irrelevant when the player can't play.

Hire him as a cheerleader if you want, but make sure you aren't signing him as a player.

 

[TimeZone]

The point is that we had the money. They're what we chose. If they deliver, and the bottom of the roster was chosen right, we should have an F group we can win with. No excuses.

Wait now, I thought previous years trumped small opening season sample sizes?

If he can't deliver a top end team he's objectively worse. The bar didn't get lowered.

What do you define as a "top end team" ? Regular Season success and then playoff failure? We haven't produced a proper contending team to date.

It does, and evidently the previous body of work put forth by ZAR wasn't viewed as enough from all 32 teams in the league to warrant a contract offer.

You need more than an elite top 9 to compete for the cup, you'd think you would realize this when discussing the likes of Boston, Colorado, Vegas but evidently it still hasn't registered.

 

[4thline]

What do you define as a "top end team" ? Regular Season success and then playoff failure? We haven't produced a proper contending team to date.

110 point team that choked in the 2nd round was last years result. Before that is what, 115 and down in 7 in the 1st?

What would you define as a successful season to follow?

 

[TimeZone]

110 point team that choked in the 2nd round was last years result. Before that is what, 115 and down in 7 in the 1st?

What would you define as a successful season to follow?

It's been third round + or bust for about 3-4 years for me now, as I imagine it has been for many.

And you?

 

[Nylanderthal]

If your thing is regular season success - by all means.

We'll see if Tre can put anything better together for the playoffs.

His team has to get there first.

 

[Enga Olly]

I don' t really keep track of these things but if I read capfriendly.com correctly, Noel Noel Acciari and Luke Schenn have a combined cap hit of $4.75M, while Reaves and Klingberg have a $5.5M combined cap hit. That's a serious misjudgment of talent and use of cap $.
Treiliving is to GM's what Boston Pizza is to pizza

 

[TheRumble]

I don' t really keep track of these things but if I read capfriendly.com correctly, Noel Noel Acciari and Luke Schenn have a combined cap hit of $4.75M, while Reaves and Klingberg have a $5.5M combined cap hit. That's a serious misjudgment of talent and use of cap $.
Treiliving is to GM's what Boston Pizza is to pizza

According to this forum, Mattews, Nylander, Tavares and Marner forced Treliving to pay that much for those players.