Brad Treliving is doing a great job.

[Dekes For Days]

The physicality stuff is so overrated. Neither Dallas and Colorado, nor Rangers and Carolina, were pounding on each last night.

Yep. The lesser hitting team was 7-1 in the first round.

 

[notDatsyuk]

The point of the post was the impact on the record. They started off the post by saying that the regular season results were worse, and they then tried to excuse that by pointing to the core members that contributed less, saying that that had "more to do with it than the moves Tre made". That was wrong, and I showed why it was wrong. The core members that contributed more countered out the core members that contributed less, and the overall contributions of the core 4 were even bigger than past years. I'm not really sure how you're not understanding this, considering that you yourself posted the exact same information in response; just separated into a less relevant format.

The point was that those two did worse. You tried to excuse their poor production by pointing out that other players, not even mentioned, did better, without even admitting who they were.

We all know that you are a huge supporter of Dubas, and therefore support both JT and Mitch, even though they (or at least their contracts, are Dubas' biggest mistakes, along with hiring Keefe.

You really can't keep hiding their poor performances by pointing out that other unnamed players make up for it.

Mitch hardly looked physically hobbled out there. He skated normally. I don't think injury had that much of an effect. His game just doesn't work in the postseason.

No, I think the evidence shows that high ankle sprain has been affecting his playoff performance for several years.

 

[notDatsyuk]

He had his edges, but I know from experience, okay okay 40+ years ago, a high ankle sprain in my 20's impacted me for months. Yeah, you get over it, but at times it would hit from out of the blue and you'd think oh yeah that was from ... and chuckle.

Certainly, his production drops off as Matthews scores less ... year direct ...

Matthews doesn't score, marner doesn't get assists.

Does that apply even when they aren't on the same line?

 

[sunstersun]

If there's one thing I really want it's puck moving shooting D.

 

[DraftSchmaft]

This thread is making my head hurt.

The mods probably don't even watch these pointless arguments anymore that are primarily based on defending past GM. You can board a guy on the numbers and avoid the box lol

 

[Dreakmur]

The fact is they have been contenders in past years. How you wish to perceive their subsequent results is up to you.

They may have been incorrectly viewed as contenders by people who don't know that play-off hockey is different than regular season hockey.

You or anybody can just search "excuses" and find them. Heck, in this very post, you couldn't even stop yourself from dismissing the impact of the exact same thing happening in a past series, even as you simultaneously claim it as a "legitimate excuse" this year.

Let's say you're right, and I'm being a hypocrite here, do you think that absolves you of the same? If Dubas was here, you'd be calling this the best play-off team we've ever iced, with the best supporting cast, and it was just injuries to the core that caused our loss.

As I said at the time, losing Tavares was bad.... but if you're a Tavares injury away from losing to Montreal, then you weren't very good to begin with.

No, facts that you can't dispute.

Desperate attempts to validate your idol's failures.

Treliving still signed him to a contract for this year. He had a choice, and he made it.

He made the best choice of a pile of bad options he walked into.

He then made a second choice to go into the playoffs with him after a rough year.

That's a coaching decision. The coach was hired by Dubas, so that decision is his fault, right? I mean, if you're trying to fabricate credit for the McMann signing and Cowan selection, the consistent view would be to blame him for this goalie decision.....

McMann, the internal graduate that Dubas acquired, to add to Knies, Holmberg, and Robertson this year.

The non-prospect that was acquired by Laurence Gillman.

Yep. The lesser hitting team was 7-1 in the first round.

That's because the team who has the puck can't hit anyone. Of course, to get the puck, you have to win a battle first.

 

[sxvnert]

The physicality stuff is so overrated. Neither Dallas and Colorado, nor Rangers and Carolina, were pounding on each last night. What they were doing was scoring goals, including lots of power play goals.

It's necessary with the path in the east. Especially in the Atlantic.

 

[Evilhomer]

It's necessary with the path in the east. Especially in the Atlantic.

But not to the point of being detrimental, which was the case this year. It's fine to have 3 or 4 bruising defensemen, but it doesn't help if all of them treat the puck like a grenade.

 

[Tak7]

Our most expensive 8 forwards not counting Matthews, Nylander, Tavares, Marner cost about 17mil.

Colorado’s most expensive 8 forwards not counting MacK, Rantanen, Nichushkin cost about 17 mil. They’re more than twice as productive and don’t need to play with MacK at ES to get there like ours did.

You can build a productive middle 6 for under 20mil, most of them are built that way. Our cost cutting is on D and G, spending on middle class forwards has never been an issue we just keep getting flawed ones.

They'll have to spend more money on goaltending this summer than they did this past season.

They'll likely be spending more on the blueline to upgrade that trash heap.

The Matthews and Nylander raises kick in next season.

They'll likely also need to replace Domi and Bertuzzi.

What part of the roster feels the cap crunch the most, again? It's the bottom 6. It's an offensive black hole, with the added effect this past season of them not being able to kill any penalties either.

 

[Shooter2x]

But not to the point of being detrimental, which was the case this year. It's fine to have 3 or 4 bruising defensemen, but it doesn't help if all of them treat the puck like a grenade.

Dubas SCA/60 against the Bolts would have got us swept this year

Personally disliking a unit does not make you correct.

Dubas: 0 skill, 0 grit

Tre: 0 skill, 1 grit.

Still an upgrade and it's absurd to think Leafs management don't know how pivotal it is to getting a mobile D in the off season. You would have gave Dubas 20000 years to find one and blame the market if he couldn't...so how about you guys relax on this already.

 

[Dekes For Days]

The point was that those two did worse.

No, it wasn't. The point of the post was to attribute the drop off in our regular season record to lesser contributions by core players, and absolve Treliving. I merely pointed out that the lesser core contributions were countered out by the greater core contributions, and the core four collectively contributed more than ever - correcting the original conclusion.

You tried to excuse their poor production by pointing out that other players, not even mentioned, did better, without even admitting who they were.

I didn't "excuse" anything. I addressed their point by providing additional information that countered their conclusion.
I'm sure you could figure out who the "core 4" meant. It's only been used to refer to four specific players for about 6 years now.
The poster that was actually involved in the discussion seemed to understand just fine.

 

[Hoglund4MvP]

Hard to take the side of people who still think pens trading for karlsson and missing the playoffs and giving up a 1st rounder was still a good attempt worth making

 

[Evilhomer]

Dubas SCA/60 against the Bolts would have got us swept this year

Personally disliking a unit does not make you correct.

Dubas: 0 skill, 0 grit

Tre: 0 skill, 1 grit.

Still an upgrade and it's absurd to think Leafs management don't know how pivotal it is to getting a mobile D in the off season. You would have gave Dubas 20000 years to find one and blame the market if he couldn't...so how about you guys relax on this already.

You guys and your love for comparing GMs. Who cares about that? All I'm saying is that Leafs fans are having an overreaction to toughness because of the narrative that this team lost in prior years because it was "pushed around". Clearly that was not the reason they lost, because they lost this year when they weren't pushed around. It's fine to have guys like Edmundson in your bottom pairing, but does anyone notice that the teams that are winning are the ones with high-end, offense driven defensemen? Half the reason the Leafs can't score is because they may have the worst transition games amongst playoff teams.

 

[ITM]

Hard to take the side of people who still think pens trading for karlsson and missing the playoffs and giving up a 1st rounder was still a good attempt worth making

Right, but in fairness you've also got the Foligno trade which...Oh...right.

 

[tuckerintensity]

Tre probably did as good a job as reasonably expected. The only significant changes I thought he should have made was trade Marner and fire Keefe. I’m not sure he was allowed to do either, and he joined the team when it was probably too late to do either. He was kind of stuck with the majority of this team, and he did very solid work around the edges.

He literally did everything the same as the last guy. I'm not saying that's good or bad (it's fine), I'm just saying that so far at every crossroads he has remained status quo. He re-signed both members of the core that he's been allowed to, he extended the coach, he brought back the goalie, he rounded out the roster with the same types of players we've seen the roster be rounded out with at some point in the last five years, he added the same types of players at the deadline (in one case, the same player).

It's almost like he believes there is a good team here and you just gotta keep knocking on the door until you break it down. It's almost like those are the exact words he's spoken.

I don't think that's necessarily wrong, either. I'd have liked him to move on from Keefe last offseason, I'd have liked to see him look at a different answer in net, I certainly didn't like a couple of signings... and I liked his deadline moves, certainly liked a couple of his signings (and re-signings), and I actually believe the best way out of this funk is through it (and everything he has shown so far says he agrees with that).

And at the same time he's proven nothing, here or Calgary. His work is pretty underwhelming.

He's fine. I'm not we should settle for fine, but that's what we got and it's tough to listen to people pretend he's doing something drastically different. He's following the Shanaplan.

 

[Shooter2x]

You guys and your love for comparing GMs. Who cares about that? All I'm saying is that Leafs fans are having an overreaction to toughness because of the narrative that this team lost in prior years because it was "pushed around". Clearly that was not the reason they lost, because they lost this year when they weren't pushed around. It's fine to have guys like Edmundson in your bottom pairing, but does anyone notice that the teams that are winning are the ones with high-end, offense driven defensemen? Half the reason the Leafs can't score is because they may have the worst transition games amongst playoff teams.

There is no overreaction.

There is an overreaction against the people enjoying the physical aspect inserted into the lineup. Mainly driven by how soft Dubas' past teams were from what I'm seeing.

Literally nobody is denying that we need to improve the transition game and focus on acquiring the top 4 mobile D.

Leafs lead the way in both goals and hits after the deadline. I find that awesome (leading in both). I think it increases our odds of winning moving forward. You seem to have a problem with me thinking so.

 

[Evilhomer]

He literally did everything the same as the last guy. I'm not saying that's good or bad (it's fine), I'm just saying that so far at every crossroads he has remained status quo. He re-signed both members of the core that he's been allowed to, he extended the coach, he brought back the goalie, he rounded out the roster with the same types of players we've seen the roster be rounded out with at some point in the last five years, he added the same types of players at the deadline (in one case, the same player).

It's almost like he believes there is a good team here and you just gotta keep knocking on the door until you break it down. It's almost like those are the exact words he's spoken.

I don't think that's necessarily wrong, either. I'd have liked him to move on from Keefe last offseason, I'd have liked to see him look at a different answer in net, I certainly didn't like a couple of signings... and I liked his deadline moves, certainly liked a couple of his signings (and re-signings), and I actually believe the best way out of this funk is through it (and everything he has shown so far says he agrees with that).

And at the same time he's proven nothing, here or Calgary. His work is pretty underwhelming.

He's fine. I'm not we should settle for fine, but that's what we got and it's tough to listen to people pretend he's doing something drastically different. He's following the Shanaplan.

Agreed, and the only question is whether this off-season is more of the same, save for a new coach.

There is no overreaction.

There is an overreaction against the people enjoying the physical aspect inserted into the lineup. Mainly driven by how soft Dubas' past teams were from what I'm seeing.

Literally nobody is denying that we need to improve the transition game and focus on acquiring the top 4 mobile D.

Leafs lead the way in both goals and hits after the deadline. I find that awesome (leading in both). I think it increases our odds of winning moving forward. You seem to have a problem with me thinking so.

I have no problem with it at all. I'm simply saying that adding piles of toughness produced literally the exact same outcome, which leads me to believe that toughness has never really been the problem. It's fine to add it, but it's akin to having a nice wine with Taco Bell.

 

[Shooter2x]

Agreed, and the only question is whether this off-season is more of the same, save for a new coach.


I have no problem with it at all. I'm simply saying that adding piles of toughness produced literally the exact same outcome, which leads me to believe that toughness has never really been the problem. It's fine to add it, but it's akin to having a nice wine with Taco Bell.

You don't really show any evidence as to why you think the grit element didn't have an impact this year. Nobody is still commenting on the difference in SCA/60 from last season compared to this one.

I personally don't see how we get to the 7th game without the physical injection we saw this season.


We will agree to disagree because I can see this leading to nothing but circles.

This team will be deadly if it can maintain the goals + hits combo while also fixing the transition issues we have faced from the backend over the last several years including this one.

 

[Dreakmur]

He literally did everything the same as the last guy. I'm not saying that's good or bad (it's fine), I'm just saying that so far at every crossroads he has remained status quo. He re-signed both members of the core that he's been allowed to, he extended the coach, he brought back the goalie, he rounded out the roster with the same types of players we've seen the roster be rounded out with at some point in the last five years, he added the same types of players at the deadline (in one case, the same player).

It's almost like he believes there is a good team here and you just gotta keep knocking on the door until you break it down. It's almost like those are the exact words he's spoken.

I don't think that's necessarily wrong, either. I'd have liked him to move on from Keefe last offseason, I'd have liked to see him look at a different answer in net, I certainly didn't like a couple of signings... and I liked his deadline moves, certainly liked a couple of his signings (and re-signings), and I actually believe the best way out of this funk is through it (and everything he has shown so far says he agrees with that).

And at the same time he's proven nothing, here or Calgary. His work is pretty underwhelming.

He's fine. I'm not we should settle for fine, but that's what we got and it's tough to listen to people pretend he's doing something drastically different. He's following the Shanaplan.

He has not yet made any core changes - that’s true, but he hasn’t even been here a year.

He did take a vastly different approach to filling the depth roles than the previous GM, and those moves were quite successful.

 

[Evilhomer]

You don't really show any evidence as to why you think the grit element didn't have an impact this year. Nobody is still commenting on the difference in SCA/60 from last season compared to this one.

I personally don't see how we get to the 7th game without the physical injection we saw this season.


We will agree to disagree because I can see this leading to nothing but circles.

This team will be deadly if it can maintain the goals + hits combo while also fixing the transition issues we have faced from the backend over the last several years including this one.

Is there a correlation between number of hits and playoffs wins? I ask honestly because it seems like it would be a pretty tenuous connection.

 

[notDatsyuk]

Go look at our PP numbers in elimination games.......it's unbelievable.

How do you build a top heavy team with all world offensive players but then get absolutely shutdown in the biggest games and the biggest moments.

I think it's something like 1 for the last 26 in the past 5 series (elimination games) and at that point it's definitely something to do with coaching and the opposing team exploiting your gameplan.

A few things contribute. We don't have a net front presence that screens the goalie. We don't have a defenceman with a big shot. We have at least two players who tend to hold the puck too long (in JT's case, try to) looking for a perfect pass. We have a very predictable 'feed Matty' strategy with minimal variation. We have a very time wasting 'multiple drop passes' strategy. We have one player who can enter the zone with the puck without immediately dropping it off to someone standing still.

Someone like Bertuzzi instead of JT in the slot, someone other than Rielly at the point, and more movement - of both the puck and the players - to open up lanes would make a huge difference.

 

[notDatsyuk]

No, it wasn't. The point of the post was to attribute the drop off in our regular season record to lesser contributions by core players, and absolve Treliving. I merely pointed out that the lesser core contributions were countered out by the greater core contributions, and the core four collectively contributed more than ever - correcting the original conclusion.

I didn't "excuse" anything. I addressed their point by providing additional information that countered their conclusion.
I'm sure you could figure out who the "core 4" meant. It's only been used to refer to four specific players for about 6 years now.
The poster that was actually involved in the discussion seemed to understand just fine.

So as usual you entirely miss the point -- whether intentionally or otherwise I don't know.

Since you cannot seem to even understand something that simple when explained several times, I won't waste any more energy - I'll just sit back and laugh at you.

 

[Martin Skoula]

He has not yet made any core changes - that’s true, but he hasn’t even been here a year.

He did take a vastly different approach to filling the depth roles than the previous GM, and those moves were quite successful.

Are they that different though? We already had Boosh and an assortment of Bogo, Benn, Schenn on the back end, I guess getting two of those guys at the same time was a slight change? I don’t think Domi and Bert were that different from the premium grinders we’ve tried up front before, we’ve run older enforcers on the 4th line before too. I’m sure I’ll get the usual Malgin Petan stuff here but they didn’t play a single playoff game for us, I mean shit we went into the Tampa series with Simmonds and Clifford on the fourth line and he got suspended right away.

I feel like the idea Dubas preached at the start about 4 lines of speed got stuck in people’s heads and they ignore that we’ve steadily been getting slower and picking up gritty grinders for depth roles since 2019. We were rumoured to be in on Bertuzzi before Brad showed up.

I guess it’s better to get those guys on short UFA deals instead of deadline adds but I don’t see how the targeted player type is all that different.

The media drilled in the meme that the core needs experienced grinders to round the team out but that’s not the type of player the actual contenders keep adding. We’ve been allergic to adding a prime aged Nuke, Lehkonen, Barbashev, Stephenson, etc for some reason. They’re not expensive to get in assets or cap, I really don’t understand it. Even a guy like Manson that looks like the traditional gritty D add, he’d probably be our best offensive D pretty comfortably, let alone comparing him to an Edmundson type.

 

[HamiltonNHL]

Almost 5 years later, still need to get rid of one.

Hi Marner.

 

[hamzarocks]

But not to the point of being detrimental, which was the case this year. It's fine to have 3 or 4 bruising defensemen, but it doesn't help if all of them treat the puck like a grenade.

There was nothing determental about the defense this year

We only scored 12 goals, the PP went 1 for 22 or whatever.

The leafs went to 7 games despite 12 goals. That means our aggresive and physical defense strategy did a good job at limiting goals. We gave up 18 in 7 games which is outstanding

I think shots against we also did a good job with the leafa having better looks at 5v5 but our players choking again

Ideally we just need to upgrade lilijgren i to a better PMD and the defense with Rielly type, mcCabe Type, Edmunson And Benoit Types is great

Boston has 1 great puck mover in McAvoy, 1 good in Lindholm and then nothing else really (Carlo is a Edmunson/Benoit, Wotherspoon a worse Lilijgren, Grezlyk a lubushkin, and then Lohrei is aj unproven guy who is more defensive Dman than PMD)