Brad Treliving is doing a great job.

[DarkKnight]

Feels like a method actor act at this point.

Method actors have talent though.

 

[SImpelton]

Getting this thread on topic:

Treliving just has to RETOOL for two consecutive years IMO. This summer; and then next summer when both Tavares and Marner are off the cap.

I hope Treliving doesn't sign Marner and ideally convinces him to waive so we can do a sign and trade; or worse lets him walk as a UFA

Tavares' 11 AAV coming off the cap would be a blessing.

Thats 22 million that can be put to good use in 2025-2026 season.

Time to build on the players that did step up in the playoffs
- Benoit, McCabe, Knies, Holmberg (thought he played decent), re-sign Edmundson, extend Liljegren 1 yr (he has arbitration), re-sign Dewar, this summer just invest time in finding a goalie first and foremost (am still not sold on Woll completely).

I believe we will try see a FULL TRELIVING team in 2025-2026 season so until then just buckle down and even if we miss playoffs next season because we have 4 forwards making 11 AAV+ thats fine just think of it as 2 steps back to take 16 steps forwards

I agree with what you're saying between the lines -- you can't judge Treliving at all until that 25-26 season

 

[leafs in five]

Every former player that covers the team has noted a different flavour to the Leafs. The players in the room noted. The coach Dubas picked said it. The American networks, you name it. And then there is 5 Dubists here who simply can't compute that we were more competitive. Nobody is arguing for goons, you need SKILL first, but you need to clear the net, negate the forwards on the boards, slow them down through the neutral zone, all things any dunce knows is winning hockey and we started to actually see it.

I agree they showed something different this year. but saying we were more competitive this time, more deserving of respect after a first round exit, was a punchline around here for years. now it's just obvious to anyone who knows hockey apparently.

 

[The Masters]

Treliving will need AT LEAST 2 off-seasons to re-shape this group into a playoff winning club

we see it every year how these teams compete / score / defend /

Imagine us vs Avalanche or Stars .. we would get torched. No where close

 

[Nineteen67]

Every former player that covers the team has noted a different flavour to the Leafs. The players in the room noted. The coach Dubas picked said it. The American networks, you name it. And then there is 5 Dubists here who simply can't compute that we were more competitive. Nobody is arguing for goons, you need SKILL first, but you need to clear the net, negate the forwards on the boards, slow them down through the neutral zone, all things any dunce knows is winning hockey and we started to actually see it.

Anyone can cobble together a counter to everything, it doesn't mean it has any real weight. There is a reason nobody is calling for Tre's head, because they aren't Dube lovers, they're hockey people.

Truth. Last night Aho played a really strong game and used his skill in tough areas. He needs to do that and more in game 3.

 

[DarkKnight]

I agree they showed something different this year. but saying we were more competitive this time, more deserving of respect after a first round exit, was a punchline around here for years. now it's just obvious to anyone who knows hockey apparently.

Your first line contradicts your subsequent commentary. Who gives a f*** what was said before, you just said yourself it was different.

 

[leafs in five]

Your first line for contradicts your subsequent commentary. Who gives a f*** what was said before, you just said yourself it was different.

well 21/22 was different to the year before, like I still think they played well that first Tampa series, probably better than they did in the one the won. the Kampf penalty in game 6, the Holl pick call, you could bring these up as excuses or context. it was definitely true, after that series, that they were better, and more competitive than they had been vs Montreal, against a better team. but keefe saying that (in probably the worse possible way) was treated as some embarrassing acceptance of failture.

this year was a different type of competitiveness in that they were willing to play like a torts team basically, and ofc a lot of that was down to personnel. but the result was a first round loss, to a team lots of people regarded as not great. it's not dubasism to question whether it's actually less of a failure to lose that way. even if you decide that on balance it was different.

anyway

 

[ULF_55]

I liked enough from Tre to be fine with him handling another year, especially to see what he can do rebuilding the D with an offseason of trades and free agents. There were definitely some positives to build from (like extending Domi for example)

But the team just experienced a worse regular season and playoffs than the previous year. Massive question marks remain about if the team is heading in the right direction now...

Oh, I think he's getting that, one more year.

But I can't find a history of success for him. Although I see he played 6 ECHL playoffs games.

Perhaps a history of not being a lottery team?

 

[Bomber0104]

Every former player that covers the team has noted a different flavour to the Leafs. The players in the room noted. The coach Dubas picked said it. The American networks, you name it. And then there is 5 Dubists here who simply can't compute that we were more competitive. Nobody is arguing for goons, you need SKILL first, but you need to clear the net, negate the forwards on the boards, slow them down through the neutral zone, all things any dunce knows is winning hockey and we started to actually see it.

Anyone can cobble together a counter to everything, it doesn't mean it has any real weight. There is a reason nobody is calling for Tre's head, because they aren't Dube lovers, they're hockey people.

Not a single shred of criticism for the GM that oversaw 5 consecutive years of playoff failure including four first round losses to opponents of virtually any quality, blown 3-1 series leads etc.

***GM fired and replaced***

Instantly starts trying to tear down the new guy's each and every move.

Yeah nothing dishonest about that.

 

[DarkKnight]

Not a single shred of criticism for the GM that oversaw 5 consecutive years of playoff failure including four first round losses to opponents of virtually any quality, blown 3-1 series leads etc.

***GM fired and replaced***

Instantly starts trying to tear down the new guy's each and every move.

Yeah nothing dishonest about that.

It's so obvious too, like you blush for them.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Not every year, they didn't. A true contender would have figured out a way to win at least 5 or 6 series over Dubas' tenure. Losing EVERY YEAR does erase their contender status.

It doesn't erase anything, because that's not how contender status works.
Every year is different (and we haven't been a contender every year), and many teams that have been contenders for multiple years have struggled to find success for many years.

The best part about this whole thing is that this is the first year where the team had legitimate excuses. If this exact series happened under Dubas, you be screaming that they only lost because of injuries..... but since you can't accept Tre built a better play-off team, you're pretending that context doesn't exist.

I've already acknowledged the injury impacts. You're the only one that has pretended that context doesn't exist, not me. In fact, you're still doing it above when discussing their contender status. When we've had series in the past under Dubas, where we've experienced the exact same things, you've argued endlessly that there are no "legitimate excuses". You're also the only one that has historically excluded all relevant information outside of just playoff series outcomes when evaluating the team, not me. But now since you don't want to accept that Treliving built a worse team, including for the playoffs, you're pretending that this is the only year that is allowed context.

Tre's acuisitions, on the other hand, all performed in the play-offs.

No they didn't. All of Treliving's acquisitions combined for 2 goals in the series (matched by just Knies himself, at a fraction of the cost) - 1 of which was a fluke double bounce off a foot. Domi and Bertuzzi spent the entire series with almost exclusively core 4 members who drove their line, being deployed in the most sheltered offensive situations, and yet struggled to produce while ignoring defense and bleeding chances against significantly more than any other forward on the team. This after we had people ignoring their poor play throughout the year under the premise that it was okay because they were going to explode in the playoffs.

Treliving's additions also took a ton of unnecessary and stupid penalties (including at horrible moments in games) and allowed odd man chances against while trying to act tough, chase hits, and be "snotty" - a misguided focus of Treliving that thanks to Treliving's additional failure to address the PK, cost us games. Reaves, Dewar, Gregor, Edmundson, and Kampf got caved in while on the ice (and were 5 of the 6 worst players on the team in that regard). Treliving failed to address the top-4 of our defense, and instead decided to spend assets on 3 almost identical bottom pairing defensemen with very similar strengths and weaknesses. So while we could cross check people in front of the net a little harder as we got peppered with shots, the players couldn't do much else and our strategy beyond that point became just ice the puck and pray. It completely neutered our ability to transition up the ice, and as a result, we were also pretty much forced to play a struggling Liljegren. McCabe - a Dubas acquisition - was our best defenseman.

For the record, Treliving is also the one who decided to re-sign Samsonov, and go into the playoffs with a goalie having a rough year and a rookie with a history of injury struggles.

What Dubas prospects even played this year?

Knies, Holmberg, Robertson, and McMann.

 

[leafs in five]

***GM fired and replaced***

actually series wins aren't the only meaningful measure of success/failure/progress

 

[Trapper]

Treliving will need AT LEAST 2 off-seasons to re-shape this group into a playoff winning club

we see it every year how these teams compete / score / defend /

Imagine us vs Avalanche or Stars .. we would get torched. No where close

First we’d have to get that far. We can’t even outperform our own division. We’ve never even seen NYR or Carolina in the playoffs either. We’d have to battle past that long before we can get torched by the rest.

 

[IPS]

The more I think of it, the more I realize that without the $11M and $5M boat anchors and Tavares and Brodie that were leftover from the previous GM, Tre could have legitimately put something together that went far in the playoffs.

 

[Dreakmur]

It doesn't erase anything, because that's not how contender status works.
Every year is different (and we haven't been a contender every year), and many teams that have been contenders for multiple years have struggled to find success for many years.

So your argument is that they were contenders and horribly underachieved every year? I’m not sure exactly what you think that cbahges…

I've already acknowledged the injury impacts. You're the only one that has pretended that context doesn't exist, not me. In fact, you're still doing it above when discussing their contender status. When we've had series in the past under Dubas, where we've experienced the exact same things, you've argued endlessly that there are no "legitimate excuses". You're also the only one that has historically excluded all relevant information outside of just playoff series outcomes when evaluating the team, not me. But now since you don't want to accept that Treliving built a worse team, including for the playoffs, you're pretending that this is the only year that is allowed context.

Feel free to to quote the posts where I have argued endlessly that there are no legitimate excuses.

Against Montreal, i definitely did say that Tavares’ injury shouldn’t be enough to excuse the loss to a team like Montreal. That’s about it.

No they didn't. All of Treliving's acquisitions combined for 2 goals in the series (matched by just Knies himself, at a fraction of the cost) - 1 of which was a fluke double bounce off a foot. Domi and Bertuzzi spent the entire series with almost exclusively core 4 members who drove their line, being deployed in the most sheltered offensive situations, and yet struggled to produce while ignoring defense and bleeding chances against significantly more than any other forward on the team. This after we had people ignoring their poor play throughout the year under the premise that it was okay because they were going to explode in the playoffs.

Treliving's additions also took a ton of unnecessary and stupid penalties (including at horrible moments in games) and allowed odd man chances against while trying to act tough, chase hits, and be "snotty" - a misguided focus of Treliving that thanks to Treliving's additional failure to address the PK, cost us games. Reaves, Dewar, Gregor, Edmundson, and Kampf got caved in while on the ice (and were 5 of the 6 worst players on the team in that regard). Treliving failed to address the top-4 of our defense, and instead decided to spend assets on 3 almost identical bottom pairing defensemen with very similar strengths and weaknesses. So while we could cross check people in front of the net a little harder as we got peppered with shots, the players couldn't do much else and our strategy beyond that point became just ice the puck and pray. It completely neutered our ability to transition up the ice, and as a result, we were also pretty much forced to play a struggling Liljegren. McCabe - a Dubas acquisition - was our best defenseman.

Spin spin spin!

For the record, Treliving is also the one who decided to re-sign Samsonov, and go into the playoffs with a goalie having a rough year and a rookie with a history of injury struggles.

He took him to arbitration because he wasn’t comfortable giving him a longer contract.

Knies, Holmberg, Robertson, and McMann.

McMann, the 27 year old “prospect” that Dubas didn’t even acquire.

 

[The Masters]

First we’d have to get that far. We can’t even outperform our own division. We’ve never even seen NYR or Carolina in the playoffs either. We’d have to battle past that long before we can get torched by the rest.

im not saying to play them in the finals. I am just comparing clubs. They are miles ahead in playoff style play. Boston is one thing. Avs/Dallas look like another planet

 

[IPS]

Tre also got slapped a bit by an anomoly we never witnessed before: All 3 top players hurt to some extent for the entire round 1.

Perhaps I'm a Nylander homer but with a healthy Nylander from game 1 it would be us in round 2 against Panthers.

Probably would have, and it wouldn't have been like last year where we got smashed and outplayed 5 out of 6 games against Tampa and still fluked the series win.

 

[leafs in five]

Probably would have, and it wouldn't have been like last year where we got smashed and outplayed 5 out of 6 games against Tampa and still fluked the series win.

did we lose the expected goals in that series or something?

 

[notbias]

Losing by 1 goal is literally being a few goals away.

Offence let us down again but the ceiling is sky high if we can sync the goals with the new compete level.

The "new compete level" comes in the form of low IQ/skill players, they likely won't be bringing in a ton of goals.

Every former player that covers the team has noted a different flavour to the Leafs. The players in the room noted. The coach Dubas picked said it. The American networks, you name it. And then there is 5 Dubists here who simply can't compute that we were more competitive. Nobody is arguing for goons, you need SKILL first, but you need to clear the net, negate the forwards on the boards, slow them down through the neutral zone, all things any dunce knows is winning hockey and we started to actually see it.

Anyone can cobble together a counter to everything, it doesn't mean it has any real weight. There is a reason nobody is calling for Tre's head, because they aren't Dube lovers, they're hockey people.

The issue is we didn't bring in skill first... that is all any of the "Dubists" want.

Defending has never been an issue, and once again, scoring was the issue.

It is hilarious to watch the teams still playing built more like a "Dubas team", while we played super defensive hockey with low-skilled players who only know how to defend and the Leafs are once again sent home early.

All most of these people want is a skilled team first, size can come second.

Most people liked Domi and Lub, they played hockey first and then everything else was secondary.

Reaves for example ended up hurting us in multiple games and were later sat for that reason.

When your cap is as poorly structured as it is now, you'll always be left susceptible to an illness, or injury, or a dip in performance being completely fatal.

They can't keep trying this going forward. It doesn't work.

Pretty much every team is left susceptible to injury/illness/dip in play when their top players are the ones affected, this isn't a unique thing to Toronto, and I don't think they are affected worse than anyone else.

 

[IPS]

It is hilarious to watch the teams still playing built more like a "Dubas team", while we played super defensive hockey with low-skilled players who only know how to defend and the Leafs are once again sent home early.

Oh yeah? Then why did Tre's acquisitions score more than the core-4?

 

[ULF_55]

Every former player that covers the team has noted a different flavour to the Leafs. The players in the room noted. The coach Dubas picked said it. The American networks, you name it. And then there is 5 Dubists here who simply can't compute that we were more competitive. Nobody is arguing for goons, you need SKILL first, but you need to clear the net, negate the forwards on the boards, slow them down through the neutral zone, all things any dunce knows is winning hockey and we started to actually see it.

Anyone can cobble together a counter to everything, it doesn't mean it has any real weight. There is a reason nobody is calling for Tre's head, because they aren't Dube lovers, they're hockey people.

They were competitive other than offensively.
They lost because they had no one capable of producing offensively.

Playing with their 3 best players at less than 100% required some of the other 9 forwards to have an ability to put up points. We're all hoping Cowan and kids bring something, and they have a coach who has the courage to try them, and a GM who agrees with that coach.

As much as everyone didn't like the Klingberg signing, he's what they needed, someone who could move the puck to a teammate, not just be physical and handle the puck like a grenade. How'd all that added grit play out ... no offense, but hey they were physical in losing.

Rielly better be nursing something or they're in deep trouble with him being their best defender. He cannot be relied upon for much at this point. He better come to camp in the best shape of his career. Not a good looking situation on defense.

Treliving wasn't any better, wasn't any worse, wasn't the answer, but he didn't have time?

Didn't have time? Unemployed GM, who was in the league for years up until he became unemployed wasn't prepared? Not sure I buy that. What actions did he take? Signed players well known to be available, and an "enforcer" for 3 years on a 35+ contract. Well, I'd say he was okay, expectations could not have been high, and he does bring it as best he can. (Props for Benoit)

I'm really not buying he didn't have time, unless he was ignorant about the rest of the league. Sure he was just mutually agreeably relieved of his duties, but any competent GM would know what's going on around the league. And it isn't like the Leafs are some underreported Columbus Blue Jackets.

Hands up here who knew Brodie was done last year ...
Hands up here who knew Giordano was capable of playing about 50% of his best self ...

He's getting another year ... unless he suddenly doesn't make the Friday PC.

 

[notDatsyuk]

Yes, the poster did say Marner and Tavares. They only included the core players that had contributed less, while leaving out the core players that contributed more, and that led them to the wrong conclusion about the impacts on our record. So I included Matthews and Nylander, just as you did. If you have an issue with what I did (for some unexplainable reason), you would logically have an issue with what you did yourself. It's the exact same. You just went an extra step that wasn't important to the discussion (and likely would have resulted in further required clarification about the overall impacts), by separating them out.

That was the point of the post! How can you continue to be so obtuse?

 

[notbias]

Not a single shred of criticism for the GM that oversaw 5 consecutive years of playoff failure including four first round losses to opponents of virtually any quality, blown 3-1 series leads etc.

***GM fired and replaced***

Instantly starts trying to tear down the new guy's each and every move.

Yeah nothing dishonest about that.

The former GM made a lot of moves that I don't agree with, but this board will point it out and I can agree with them... it doesn't need me to point it out.

Dubas failed, I've said this for a long time now.

The people who criticized Dubas' every move have now given Brad a pass (they just blame Dubas for everything still) on all his bad moves and ignored his history (worse than Dubas'), so there is a need to call out some of his bad moves since no one else will.

Oh yeah? Then why did Tre's acquisitions score more than the core-4?

They played more games... they got the majority of their points when Matthews took over game 2... pretty straightforward.

 

[ULF_55]

I agree with what you're saying between the lines -- you can't judge Treliving at all until that 25-26 season

But you can judge the Flames.

The Flames are a middle of the pack team, who had a couple good seasons recently and won nothing.

 

[IPS]

They played more games... they got the majority of their points when Matthews took over game 2... pretty straightforward.

Yeah and I guess that's where we completely ignore the lack of production from the $22M combined of the other 2 core members which completely conflicts with your opinion from the other day.

That goldfish memory can really hurt you sometimes.