Brad Treliving is doing a great job.

[notbias]

Yeah, some opinions are better than others by virtue of facts, just like you stated.

IE: The people who had the opinion that Dubas built teams weren't going to see much success in the playoffs.

Served to be a much better and factual opinon than the people who did believe Dubas built teams were going to succeed in the playoffs.

The 1st opinion is the stronger one because it had the facts to back it up: that fact being the team had very little playoff success in Dubas' entire tenure.

I'm kind of sick of stooping to toddler level intelligence to explain this now, do you have anything interesting or not?

So based on that logic, do you think Treliving was a terrible choice and will likely run this team to the ground? He's done it before.

Just seeing how far this amazing logic of yours will go. I am assuming at some point you'll stop using logic when it doesn't fit your narrative.

 

[IPS]

So based on that logic, do you think Treliving was a terrible choice and will likely run this team to the ground? He's done it before.

Just seeing how far this amazing logic of yours will go. I am assuming at some point you'll stop using logic when it doesn't fit your narrative.

Well I think he's definitely better than Dubas but really isn't saying much.

 

[Dreakmur]

Some of the top contenders in the cap era ended up losing in the 1st round. That doesn't erase their contender status. That's not how contender status works.

Not every year, they didn't. A true contender would have figured out a way to win at least 5 or 6 series over Dubas' tenure. Losing EVERY YEAR does erase their contender status.

The best part about this whole thing is that this is the first year where the team had legitimate excuses. If this exact series happened under Dubas, you be screaming that they only lost because of injuries..... but since you can't accept Tre built a better play-off team, you're pretending that context doesn't exist.

He did acquire some of them, and retained the others on reasonable contracts.

He acquired John Tavares on an anchor of a contract, He acquired TJ Brodie, who was on a terrible contract. He acquired Calle Jarnkrok who put up 0 points. Robertson 0 points. Holmberg 0 points. He acquired Samsonov, who played poorly. Even your imaginary acquisition of Bobby McMann didn't play.

Tre's acuisitions, on the other hand, all performed in the play-offs. Domi and Bertuzzi co-led the team in scoring. Lyubushkin co-led their defense in scoring. Edmundson and Benoit were physical defenders. Ryan Reaves outscore Jarnkrok, Robertson, and Holmberg.

Built good teams while he was in charge, and then left behind a bunch of good players and a healthy prospect pool that helped us a ton this year.

What Dubas prospects even played this year? Matthews Knies was the only one of significnt impact. Fraser Minten started the season, and was sent down. Nick Robertson jumped in and out of the lineup, which was helpful. Pontus Holmberg was a good bottom 6 guy.

 

[leafs in five]

I think to be a contender you need the components that give a you a chance to win. The Leafs haven’t had those ingredients and they’ve never been close to being a contender.

Outside a few Toronto media members and a few fans no one really thought of this group as legit contender for the Stanley Cup in any of the past 8 seasons.

you don't think they were considered even close to a contender when they finished 4th overall in 21/22?

 

[IPS]

The best part about this whole thing is that this is the first year where the team had legitimate excuses. If this exact series happened under Dubas, you be screaming that they only lost because of injuries..... but since you can't accept Tre built a better play-off team, you're pretending that context doesn't exist.

This is precisely what is annoying me too, these same posters completely absolved Dubas' 2021 team because of Tavares' injury and Carey price "goalie'ing" us.

Here we are this year with far more compelling injury issues and a goalie who posted even better stats against us than Carey Price and all of a sudden the "context" is totally different.

 

[notbias]

Well I think he's definitely better than Dubas but really isn't saying much.

Based on past results though (which you showed predict future results), no one could think this.

You also avoided the question completely.

Was a fun chat, we can continue if you want to address my original point and stop deflecting.

 

[Nineteen67]

Anyone can get hot and win it all, we've seen it. That's why the NHL is fun.

Still doesn't mean that building a team is all luck. Some GM's just know much better than other GM's what kinds of teams succeed in the postseason.

I’ve been watching a long time and it’s a rare occurrence that a poorly built team goes on a long run. Montreal went to the finals, but that wasn’t even a legit season. Typically it’s a hot goalie, like King Richard but they get swept in the final.

 

[leafs in five]

I’ve been watching a long time and it’s a rare occurrence that a poorly built team goes on a long run. Montreal went to the finals, but that wasn’t even a legit season. Typically it’s a hot goalie, like King Richard but they get swept in the final.

is the team that gets swept in the finals considered a contender during any part of the playoff run that got them to the final? like maybe before game 1 of the finals?

 

[IPS]

I’ve been watching a long time and it’s a rare occurrence that a poorly built team goes on a long run. Montreal went to the finals, but that wasn’t even a legit season. Typically it’s a hot goalie, like King Richard but they get swept in the final.

It does happen though. The Montreal team that beat us had an eerily similar structured defense to us this year that completely shut our stars down. They got hot at the right time but it still wasn't enough to overcome Tampa, much like the Oilers heating up a couple years back and falling to Colorado.

 

[All Mod Cons]

I think you give Brad some time too.

His first year was bad, but see what he can do in year 2 and then go from there.

Dubas was stagnant most years, which is better than Brad so far, which is unfortunate.

Brad built a team with less success than last year, hopefully, he brings in more of a scoring touch instead of focusing on building Calgary 2.0.

If he can learn, great, there is a lot of cheap depth coming in and he has a lot of cap space for the second year in a row, I hope he uses it better.



So it is just pure opinion... it is weird to argue with people about who a contender is then.

You keep starting these things with a one liner, but you use it like a disclaimer.

One vague line of not being against Brad and then multiple paragraphs criticizing every move he made. It's easy to see through.

What moves don't you like?

He's found us a top 6 forward in Domi that looks like he'll re-sign. Adds some pushback to our top 6, which is a complete 180 to previous years.

Benoit was an excellent signing and re-signing. A number 5 right now, but he's recently shown a top 4 role is within his ability grasp.

Kampf was a good re-signing. Showed up well in the playoffs. A reliable guy. Any contender, if structured properly can absorb his cap hit as a bottom 6 shut down centre.

He didn't re-sign Samsonov which was an excellent decision. Just took the guy to a 1 year arbitration. His suspicions seem to be confirmed.

Edmundson provided some great tough minutes in the playoffs. Really solid dman.

Our 2 worst performing dman were arguably Rielly and Liljegren. Nothing to do with Brad.

Reeves did a good job softening up an otherwise take the piss attitude that the Bruins have. Did his job and sat when he needed to.

Bertuzzi only cost money. Lead the team in points in the playoffs.

Brad was trying to scramble a team together knowing all the while 27 million dollars in Marner, Tavares and Brodie where going to be little to no help.

 

[Jojalu]

I swear to god it's like trying to reason with toddlers.

Vegas was considered a contender because of their past playoff performances, they've been to the cup finals, the conference finals, and have won it all as recent as last year. Toront has none of these things going for them.

How are you so daft that this even needs to be explained.

I am not so sure. While you can use past performance to get a broad idea of what to expect, there are so many variables that go into the equation.

Would Hill be able to duplicate his magic from a year ago?

Would they stay healthy?

Would the new additions gel in time?

Etc, etc, etc.

Over the past 8 years I think you could have called the Leafs contenders twice. They failed both times but they had a shot.

 

[IPS]

Over the past 8 years I think you could have called the Leafs contenders twice. They failed both times but they had a shot.

Trust me I'm a fan and I believe too, you can only see the reality after it happens. We've sunk a boatload of money into a core that's game has no carry over to the playoffs, your contender status takes a serious hit when this is the case.

San Jose beat their head against the wall for many years watching Thornton and Marleau try to get their cup. Every time they played a team who's core was built for playoff hockey like Chicago or LA they almost always lost.

 

[Racer88]

Okay that's a good one.

Clever people do exist here.

Thx. I try to make up for some of my real bad ones. Lol

 

[notbias]

You keep starting these things with a one liner, but you use it like a disclaimer.

One vague line of not being against Brad and then multiple paragraphs criticizing every move he made. It's easy to see through.

What moves don't you like?

He's found us a top 6 forward in Domi that looks like he'll re-sign. Adds some pushback to our top 6, which is a complete 180 to previous years.

Benoit was an excellent signing and re-signing. A number 5 right now, but he's recently shown a top 4 role is within his ability grasp.

Kampf was a good re-signing. Showed up well in the playoffs. A reliable guy. Any contender, if structured properly can absorb his cap hit as a bottom 6 shut down centre.

He didn't re-sign Samsonov which was an excellent decision. Just took the guy to a 1 year arbitration. His suspicions seem to be confirmed.

Edmundson provided some great tough minutes in the playoffs. Really solid dman.

Our 2 worst performing dman were arguably Rielly and Liljegren. Nothing to do with Brad.

Reeves did a good job softening up an otherwise take the piss attitude that the Bruins have. Did his job and sat when he needed to.

Bertuzzi only cost money. Lead the team in points in the playoffs.

Brad was trying to scramble a team together knowing all the while 27 million dollars in Marner, Tavares and Brodie where going to be little to no help.

Ya, I don't want him gone this season... see how he does after this season, I think he should be given more time no matter how bad I think he did in Calgary (possibly the worst situation of any franchise currently).

So he has signed a 2/3C, a 4C, and a 5/6D, and he did re-sign Sammy no matter how much people want to pretend he didn't, not sure this is a huge win, but sure, it is a win.

Rielly was not one of the worst D.

He had 20 million to put his touch on the team, I wasn't impressed, hope he does more this season.

 

[Racer88]

Some of the top contenders in the cap era ended up losing in the 1st round. That doesn't erase their contender status. That's not how contender status works.

He did acquire some of them, and retained the others on reasonable contracts.
Built good teams while he was in charge, and then left behind a bunch of good players and a healthy prospect pool that helped us a ton this year.

Did they lose in the first round 7 out of 8 years and the year they did not they lost in the second round

 

[Jojalu]

Trust me I'm a fan and I believe too, you can only see the reality after it happens. We've sunk a boatload of money into a core that's game has no carry over to the playoffs, your contender status takes a serious hit when this is the case.

San Jose beat their head against the wall for many years watching Thornton and Marleau try to get their cup. Every time they played a team who's core was built for playoff hockey like Chicago or LA they almost always lost.

They have failed miserably no doubt. I will say though that it is extremely difficult to constantly get to Game 7. There is something there that has the ability not to get smoked, but can't get over the hump.

Regardless. 8 years is enough of this. You have to make a change.

 

[ToneDog]

They have failed miserably no doubt. I will say though that it is extremely difficult to constantly get to Game 7. There is something there that has the ability not to get smoked, but can't get over the hump.

Regardless. 8 years is enough of this. You have to make a change.

Big picture is that they usually win 3 games and need 16. The problem is also that they are not losing to the 1976 Montreal Canadiens. They have lost to mediocre teams in round 1.

 

[authentic]

This is precisely what is annoying me too, these same posters completely absolved Dubas' 2021 team because of Tavares' injury and Carey price "goalie'ing" us.

Here we are this year with far more compelling injury issues and a goalie who posted even better stats against us than Carey Price and all of a sudden the "context" is totally different.

I was harping on Treliving but even now I can admit i was wrong. The fact we took it to game 7 OT with our two best players only playing half the series and our #1 goalie only playing 2 games speaks for itself I think. He deserves another chance as much as Dubas did even if I still don't think highly of him as a GM in general.

 

[Jojalu]

Big picture is that they usually win 3 games and need 16. The problem is also that they are not losing to the 1976 Montreal Canadiens. They have lost to mediocre teams in round 1.

I mean nearly every year the team that beats them gets to the Finals. Columbus was not very good, but neither were the Leafs that year.

Montreal just got on a wild run while the world had gone mad.

But who has been mediocre after that?

 

[leafs in five]

21/22 Tampa was a good team, so were the Panthers last year though 5 games is not a very good showing. 18/19 Bruins too. I was just thinking how that Nordstrom goal in game 7 was in the competition for worst back-breaking goal allowed by a Leafs goalie in the last decade, at least until the Frederic one in game 3

 

[ToneDog]

I mean nearly every year the team that beats them gets to the Finals. Columbus was not very good, but neither were the Leafs that year.

Montreal just got on a wild run while the world had gone mad.

But who has been mediocre after that?

Agreed, Tampa and Boston were/are decent teams.

 

[IPS]

I was harping on Treliving but even now I can admit i was wrong. The fact we took it to game 7 OT with our two best players only playing half the series and our #1 goalie only playing 2 games speaks for itself I think. He deserves another chance as much as Dubas did even if I still don't think highly of him as a GM in general.

At the end of the day, Tre's acquisitions led the Leafs in scoring, and Tre's acquisitions were also a very key component of the surprinsgly structured and physical defensive game that won us games 5 and 6.

The underproducing core (mainly Tavares/Marner, Nylander/Matthews were battling some health issues) were why we lost, and Tre has nothing to do with those guys being on the team nor can he even do anything about it with NMC's.

 

[William Johnson]

couple points:
- in my opinion people who dislike/hate/blame him for the team's issues spend more words on Dubas on here than the Dubists. or anyway, note the "absence of posts advocating for his best moves as GM"
- on that point did he trade for Hyman? if so McKegg for Hyman is a good move even if he let Hyman walk
- "failed tactics of bumpy-knuckled, gap-toothed old boys" understates what it was like under Burke, Nonis, Poulin etc who wore their ignorance proudly, tanked without intending to, and actually mortgaged the future on mediocre or worse teams. and on presentation e.g. Burke's trading floor tie knot always seemed every bit as affected to me as the Dubas bookworm thing.
- feels kind of rich to mock the sheer verbiage spent on defending Dubas in a 1500 word essay

Hi there -- thanks for taking the time to reply and for the thought put into the detailed critique. With respect, I feel like it might just be a miscommunication on a few of these points, which is likely down to me being too longwinded.

On the first point, I guess I'd just reiterate that I find it strange that Dubas has/had such dedicated support from a small number of fans while finding it far less strange that lots of people dislike/hate/blame him (and not really sure what you mean by the quote in the second half of that point, I'm afraid!). I think the fact that this is still happening a year later along with blanket criticisms of Treliving is bewildering. That said, if Treliving gets canned this week, I'll move on and hope for the best from the next GM.

As for Hyman in the second point, I was referring to letting him walk in free agency to the Oilers.

Third point: Fair point, I wasn't trying to defend the 'old boy' approach at all, so apologies for implying I did. I fully admit I'm a dinosaur and over two decades removed from my years in the media/player rep side of things so my insider knowledge of the ways things work became obsolete a very long time ago.

Last point, again, fair point. I don't post much but when I do I tend to waffle on. That said, I think that, overall, my sheer verbiage must still pale in comparison!

Thanks again for reading and considering my points.

 

[leafs in five]

Hi there -- thanks for taking the time to reply and for the thought put into the detailed critique. With respect, I feel like it might just be a miscommunication on a few of these points, which is likely down to me being too longwinded.

On the first point, I guess I'd just reiterate that I find it strange that Dubas has/had such dedicated support from a small number of fans while finding it far less strange that lots of people dislike/hate/blame him (and not really sure what you mean by the quote in the second half of that point, I'm afraid!). I think the fact that this is still happening a year later along with blanket criticisms of Treliving is bewildering. That said, if Treliving gets canned this week, I'll move on and hope for the best from the next GM.

As for Hyman in the second point, I was referring to letting him walk in free agency to the Oilers.

Third point: Fair point, I wasn't trying to defend the 'old boy' approach at all, so apologies for implying I did. I fully admit I'm a dinosaur and over two decades removed from my years in the media/player rep side of things so my insider knowledge of the ways things work became obsolete a very long time ago.

Last point, again, fair point. I don't post much but when I do I tend to waffle on. That said, I think that, overall, my sheer verbiage must still pale in comparison!

Thanks again for reading and considering my points.

on Hyman, I just meant the trade to get him as a contender (lol) for best Dubas move. but apparently it was June 2015 so not even close to his time in charge. was also pre-Lou and post-Nonis based on the dates I found, idk who gets the credit.

anyway it's an interesting question, what inspires the allegiance/continued defence.

thank you for the pleasant interaction, they are not so common on here presently!

 

[Menzinger]

What about the D stood out to you as good or better than previous years? Curious why you have hope about him building the D. That scares me far more than the forwards.

If Woll never played, would you feel the same?

I don't necessarily think it was good or better than previous years. I thought the Benoit signing was quite good, and the patch work D they put together by the tdl was fine enough. There wasn't any real puck movement ability, but it was enough to have scraped through if a few other factors had been more in the Leafs favor (as far as the first round went at least)

Tre had a fairly meh time with the Flames as a GM, but I will credit him for putting together a solid D core there, so I'm intrigued if he can repeat that here.

It's also noticeable that he's talked about this since his first week in Toronto, so I'm hoping his actions can meet his words