Brad Treliving is doing a great job.

[sunstersun]

With Matthews and Nylander hurt, Tavares being a corpse, Marner needed to have a great series for the Leafs to win.

We did not get that contribution. He was good/great 1/7 games in game 5.

 

[ULF_55]

With Matthews and Nylander hurt, Tavares being a corpse, Marner needed to have a great series for the Leafs to win.

We did not get that contribution. He was good/great 1/7 games in game 5.

marner - high ankle sprain
Matthews - sick and injured
Nylander - migraine vision impairment
Tavares - played like expected

 

[BodaciousBeefBazooka]

Always found these threads annoying with OP’s that jump the gun and jump to conclusions praising “so and so is doing good job” without seeing any true meaningful and legit results. First year as a GM with us and we didn’t even make it out of the first round. Let’s see what he can do for us in the off season.

 

[Dekes For Days]

That was the point of the post!

The point of the post was the impact on the record. They started off the post by saying that the regular season results were worse, and they then tried to excuse that by pointing to the core members that contributed less, saying that that had "more to do with it than the moves Tre made". That was wrong, and I showed why it was wrong. The core members that contributed more countered out the core members that contributed less, and the overall contributions of the core 4 were even bigger than past years. I'm not really sure how you're not understanding this, considering that you yourself posted the exact same information in response; just separated into a less relevant format.

 

[sunstersun]

marner - high ankle sprain
Matthews - sick and injured
Nylander - migraine vision impairment
Tavares - played like expected

Mitch hardly looked physically hobbled out there. He skated normally. I don't think injury had that much of an effect. His game just doesn't work in the postseason.

 

[Martin Skoula]

Oh yeah? Then why did Tre's acquisitions score more than the core-4?

Bert and Domi had one point each that wasn’t scored or assisted by one of the core, and that was on the same goal with Rielly as the other assist and Matthews on the ice.

Obviously the core needs to go, but it’s not like Bert and Domi were creating offense on their own on a 3rd line. Avs are getting the same or better production out of Lehkonen, Wood, Colton, Cogliano without needing to staple them to a star and they’re all cheaper than Bert while giving more physicality and two-way utility.

The core can suck and the non-Domi adds can suck at generating offense, it’s not mutually exclusive.

 

[Dreakmur]

Always found these threads annoying with OP’s that jump the gun and jump to conclusions praising “so and so is doing good job” without seeing any true meaningful and legit results. First year as a GM with us and we didn’t even make it out of the first round. Let’s see what he can do for us in the off season.

Tre probably did as good a job as reasonably expected. The only significant changes I thought he should have made was trade Marner and fire Keefe. I’m not sure he was allowed to do either, and he joined the team when it was probably too late to do either. He was kind of stuck with the majority of this team, and he did very solid work around the edges.

 

[IPS]

Bert and Domi had one point each that wasn’t scored or assisted by one of the core, and that was on the same goal with Rielly as the other assist and Matthews on the ice.

Obviously the core needs to go, but it’s not like Bert and Domi were creating offense on their own on a 3rd line. Avs are getting the same or better production out of Lehkonen, Wood, Colton, Cogliano without needing to staple them to a star and they’re all cheaper than Bert while giving more physicality and two-way utility.

The core can suck and the non-Domi adds can suck at generating offense, it’s not mutually exclusive.

Bertuzzi was easily better than both Tavares and Marner during the series. That already removes him from the "being a problem" category.

 

[Dreakmur]

marner - high ankle sprain
Matthews - sick and injured
Nylander - migraine vision impairment
Tavares - played like expected

The core 4 didn’t earn their money in the series. There are legitimate excuses for that, but it sure doesn’t land at Tre’s feet.

 

[ULF_55]

Mitch hardly looked physically hobbled out there. He skated normally. I don't think injury had that much of an effect. His game just doesn't work in the postseason.

He had his edges, but I know from experience, okay okay 40+ years ago, a high ankle sprain in my 20's impacted me for months. Yeah, you get over it, but at times it would hit from out of the blue and you'd think oh yeah that was from ... and chuckle.

Certainly, his production drops off as Matthews scores less ... year direct ...

Matthews doesn't score, marner doesn't get assists.

 

[notbias]

Yeah and I guess that's where we completely ignore the lack of production from the $22M combined of the other 2 core members which completely conflicts with your opinion from the other day.

That goldfish memory can really hurt you sometimes.

Marner and Tavares were bad.

Matthews and Nylander were better than anything brought in.

You asked why Treliving's acquisitions scored more than the core 4.

3 of his 10 acquisitions scored more than Tavares, 2 of his 10 acquisitions scored more than Marner, and 0 of his acquisitions scored more than Matthews and Nylander.

Unless we just ignore games played, which I also addressed.

The majority of his acquisitions did not score more than the core 4, and production-wise, Nylander/Matthews were the best, so 50% of the core 4.

The 10 players he acquired/re-signed scored 15 points in 62 games played, if we reduce players to just points, it doesn't look great.

The 11 players that were left scored 20 points in 64 games played, also not good enough, but they produced more.

More cap on one side (haven't looked, but can just assume), but neither side produced, not sure saying "look, the players who everyone said would be playoff studs produced at a ~45 point pace" is a brag.

Bertuzzi was easily better than both Tavares and Marner during the series. That already removes him from the "being a problem" category.

You can have more than one problem.

 

[IPS]

Marner and Tavares were bad.

Matthews and Nylander were better than anything brought in.

You asked why Treliving's acquisitions scored more than the core 4.

3 of his 10 acquisitions scored more than Tavares, 2 of his 10 acquisitions scored more than Marner, and 0 of his acquisitions scored more than Matthews and Nylander.

Unless we just ignore games played, which I also addressed.

The majority of his acquisitions did not score more than the core 4, and production-wise, Nylander/Matthews were the best, so 50% of the core 4.

The 10 players he acquired/re-signed scored 15 points in 62 games played, if we reduce players to just points, it doesn't look great.

The 11 players that were left scored 20 points in 64 games played, also not good enough, but they produced more.

More cap on one side (haven't looked, but can just assume), but neither side produced, not sure saying "look, the players who everyone said would be playoff studs produced at a ~45 point pace" is a brag.



You can have more than one problem.

This guy's literally out here telling me that Tavares outscoring Joel Edmundson is something that should be taken note of.

 

[notbias]

This guy's literally out here telling me that Tavares outscoring Joel Edmundson is something that should be taken note of.

Thank you for addressing the post.

Apologies if it is too complicated for the simple-minded.

You made a claim, it wasn't rooted in fact, and now you are attacking something irrelevant.

 

[IPS]

Thank you for addressing the post.

Apologies if it is too complicated for the simple minded.

Yeah thank god Tavares outscored Edmundson to save his playoff reputation. Couldn't quite get more points than Lyubushkin, but maybe next year!

 

[Dekes For Days]

So your argument is that they were contenders and horribly underachieved every year?

The fact is they have been contenders in past years. How you wish to perceive their subsequent results is up to you.

Feel free to to quote the posts where I have argued endlessly that there are no legitimate excuses.
Against Montreal, i definitely did say that Tavares’ injury shouldn’t be enough to excuse the loss to a team like Montreal. That’s about it.

You or anybody can just search "excuses" and find them. Heck, in this very post, you couldn't even stop yourself from dismissing the impact of the exact same thing happening in a past series, even as you simultaneously claim it as a "legitimate excuse" this year.

Spin spin spin!

No, facts that you can't dispute.

He took him to arbitration because he wasn’t comfortable giving him a longer contract.

Treliving still signed him to a contract for this year. He had a choice, and he made it. He then made a second choice to go into the playoffs with him after a rough year.

McMann, the 27 year old “prospect” that Dubas didn’t even acquire.

McMann, the internal graduate that Dubas acquired, to add to Knies, Holmberg, and Robertson this year.

 

[Martin Skoula]

Bertuzzi was easily better than both Tavares and Marner during the series. That already removes him from the "being a problem" category.

No argument on those two. If Bert wants to come back cheap I don’t mind, I like the person but I wouldn’t want to commit money and term. He’s not “being a problem” but he needs to be a solution at his money. It’s not Bert himself, the problem is generally spending upper middle class money on jack of all trades types, I’d rather target guys who are elite at something in that range.

Look at Colorado’s depth, I’ll ignore Nuke because he’s a bit of a unicorn. Colton is violent, fast, plays C and PKs, Cogliano is still fast, Lehkonen is an elite two way skater, Wood is fast. Any of those guys would be our fastest player behind Nylander and maybe Gregor. Trenin is a giant, Duhaime and Colton would be our most physical forwards. They all do something better than our guys.

Would Bertuzzi be “the best/most _____” on the other contenders? He’s not the fastest, he’s not that physical (at least in the sense that no one is hearing footsteps when he’s on the ice), his shot is average at best, he’s not a shutdown guy, can’t play C or PK, doesn’t really fight.

I’d rather pay the extra 600k for a Wilson, Kreider, etc type that does something better than most anyone else and requires the opponent to plan around it. Give me an elite skater, or an elite shooter, or elite netfront grinder, a Wilson tier hitter, etc instead of different flavours of Kerfoot/Bunting.

 

[4thline]

Bickering aside, this is the year things get interesting.

Tre had his safe year, ran it back with tweaking, to the same basic result.

Does he do it again and stick with the safe playoff birth and "this time things will be different" hope, or does he make the radical change that can go either way- get it right and maintain a sustainable playoff team, but one that can do damage, get it wrong and it all comes apart.

 

[Tak7]

Pretty much every team is left susceptible to injury/illness/dip in play when their top players are the ones affected, this isn't a unique thing to Toronto, and I don't think they are affected worse than anyone else.

Their bottom 6 contributed 0 goals after game 1.

So while Nylander was out, and Matthews was sick & hurt, and Marner was Marner, literally no one else could cobble up any offense because they are so reliant on those guys for offense that they can't afford proper depth.

Which is the entire point. This structure doesn't work.

 

[Tak7]

Losing by 1 goal is literally being a few goals away.

Offence let us down again but the ceiling is sky high if we can sync the goals with the new compete level.

How high, though?

Matthews scored 69 goals this year, and Nylander nearly hit 100 points. Just how much "better" do you expect this group to get?

Have we already seen this group of players peak? Impossible to say - I don't know about you, but I'm not expecting Matthews to flirt with 70 goals every year, and I don't think Nylander is a consistent 100 point winger.

 

[weems]

No argument on those two. If Bert wants to come back cheap I don’t mind, I like the person but I wouldn’t want to commit money and term. He’s not “being a problem” but he needs to be a solution at his money. It’s not Bert himself, the problem is generally spending upper middle class money on jack of all trades types, I’d rather target guys who are elite at something in that range.

Look at Colorado’s depth, I’ll ignore Nuke because he’s a bit of a unicorn. Colton is violent, fast, plays C and PKs, Cogliano is still fast, Lehkonen is an elite two way skater, Wood is fast. Any of those guys would be our fastest player behind Nylander and maybe Gregor. Trenin is a giant, Duhaime and Colton would be our most physical forwards. They all do something better than our guys.

Would Bertuzzi be “the best/most _____” on the other contenders? He’s not the fastest, he’s not that physical (at least in the sense that no one is hearing footsteps when he’s on the ice), his shot is average at best, he’s not a shutdown guy, can’t play C or PK, doesn’t really fight.

I’d rather pay the extra 600k for a Wilson, Kreider, etc type that does something better than most anyone else and requires the opponent to plan around it. Give me an elite skater, or an elite shooter, or elite netfront grinder, a Wilson tier hitter, etc instead of different flavours of Kerfoot/Bunting.

I wouldn't bring him back unless it's for a short term and very team friendly cap $$ and this is coming from someone that was pushing to acquire going back to the 22/23 deadline.

His top skating speed was down this season and under the league average by quite alot for his position and I don't see his game ageing well. I also was not impressed with some of the decision making he made with the puck, especially in dangerous areas of the ice.

He had a good second half of the year but I would be looking to bring in someone either younger or more explosive and we also have Cowan coming soon who will start his career as a LW'er.

 

[Fogelhund]

Their bottom 6 contributed 0 goals after game 1.

So while Nylander was out, and Matthews was sick & hurt, and Marner was Marner, literally no one else could cobble up any offense because they are so reliant on those guys for offense that they can't afford proper depth.

Which is the entire point. This structure doesn't work.

I think some of what you are saying is correct, but also that there is some coaching issues in this too. Jarnkrok, Robertson, Holmberg all with zero points. The first two were nearly 0.5 PPG in the regular season... Holmberg less so... But how is it they get nothing? What as a team, were we doing wrong?

One of the commentators alluded to us being a puck carrying team in the regular season, and then dump and chase against Boston.. but why? Why change a strategy that works for us, for one that we aren't built for in the playoffs?

Part of it is the PP issues too... if we score on the PP, it opens the game up... and I'm not even sure what to say about the PP... same players, same coaching.. and the PP was tops in the league at times this season, and been top 3 for years.. but it just stopped working when we needed it most... of all the things that shouldn't be a problem in the playoffs, the PP goes blank. We just couldn't adjust or get it right... and to me, that's coaching.

 

[Martin Skoula]

Their bottom 6 contributed 0 goals after game 1.

So while Nylander was out, and Matthews was sick & hurt, and Marner was Marner, literally no one else could cobble up any offense because they are so reliant on those guys for offense that they can't afford proper depth.

Which is the entire point. This structure doesn't work.

Our most expensive 8 forwards not counting Matthews, Nylander, Tavares, Marner cost about 17mil.

Colorado’s most expensive 8 forwards not counting MacK, Rantanen, Nichushkin cost about 17 mil. They’re more than twice as productive and don’t need to play with MacK at ES to get there like ours did.

You can build a productive middle 6 for under 20mil, most of them are built that way. Our cost cutting is on D and G, spending on middle class forwards has never been an issue we just keep getting flawed ones.

 

[Fogelhund]

I wouldn't bring him back unless it's for a short term and very team friendly cap $$ and this is coming from someone that was pushing to acquire going back to the 22/23 deadline.

His top skating speed was down this season and under the league average by quite alot for his position and I don't see his game ageing well. I also was not impressed with some of the decision making he made with the puck, especially in dangerous areas of the ice.

He had a good second half of the year but I would be looking to bring in someone either younger or more explosive and we also have Cowan coming soon who will start his career as a LW'er.

While it lacks grit, for less money, we could try Patrick Kane... who has known chemistry with Domi, and has wanted to play with Matthews....

I like Bert's determination, but his skill isn't high, and his decision making is questionable at best.

 

[sxvnert]

I like Bert's determination, but his skill isn't high, and his decision making is questionable at best.

If the leafs miss out on resigning Bert, Knies has been developing into that role.

 

[weems]

I think some of what you are saying is correct, but also that there is some coaching issues in this too. Jarnkrok, Robertson, Holmberg all with zero points. The first two were nearly 0.5 PPG in the regular season... Holmberg less so... But how is it they get nothing? What as a team, were we doing wrong?

One of the commentators alluded to us being a puck carrying team in the regular season, and then dump and chase against Boston.. but why? Why change a strategy that works for us, for one that we aren't built for in the playoffs?

Part of it is the PP issues too... if we score on the PP, it opens the game up... and I'm not even sure what to say about the PP... same players, same coaching.. and the PP was tops in the league at times this season, and been top 3 for years.. but it just stopped working when we needed it most... of all the things that shouldn't be a problem in the playoffs, the PP goes blank. We just couldn't adjust or get it right... and to me, that's coaching.

Go look at our PP numbers in elimination games.......it's unbelievable.

How do you build a top heavy team with all world offensive players but then get absolutely shutdown in the biggest games and the biggest moments.

I think it's something like 1 for the last 26 in the past 5 series (elimination games) and at that point it's definitely something to do with coaching and the opposing team exploiting your gameplan.