Brad Treliving is doing a great job.

[notDatsyuk]

The only one doing that is you. The rest of us are looking at how the team progressed from pre-Treliving to now, and why, and let's just say it doesn't look good for Treliving.

This year's result is objectively worse in pretty much every possible way.

Actually, I wasn't comparing at all - you're wrong as usual.

You may think, or at least claim, that this year's results are worse, but you are very much in a minority in that.

 

[sxvnert]

This year's result is objectively worse in pretty much every possible way.

Trading every pick in the cupboard has its advantages.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ryan O'Reilly
Noel Acciari
for
2023 1st round pick (TOR - #25 - Otto Stenberg)
2024 2nd round pick (TOR - #56)
2023 3rd round pick (OTT - #76 - Juraj Pekarcik)
2025 4th round pick (TOR)

Jake McCabe
Sam Lafferty
2025 5th round pick (CHI)
2024 5th round pick (NSH - #151)

for

2025 1st round pick (TOR)
2026 2nd round pick (TOR)

Luke Schenn
for
2023 3rd round pick (TOR - #89 - Sawyer Mynio)

------------------------------------------------------

Pierre Engvall for 2024 3rd round pick (NYI - #83)
Rasmus Sandin for 2023 1st round pick (BOS - #28 - Easton Cowan)

 

[Dreakmur]

The rest of us are looking at how the team progressed from pre-Treliving to now, and why, and let's just say it doesn't look good for Treliving.

Looking at the results and ignoring the context. Dubas put the team in a compromised position with poor cap management, then traded a pile of futures for UFAs who all walked away. Keep pretending he isn't at least partially responsible for this year's dip.

This year's result is objectively worse in pretty much every possible way.

That happens when you go all in the previous year.....

 

[Dekes For Days]

Trading every pick in the cupboard has its advantages.

That's far from every pick in the cupboard, even after Treliving traded 6 more this deadline.
And we were better last year long before we traded anything at either deadline.

Looking at the results and ignoring the context.

Oh many people here love that, but I'm all about the context.
Like the fact that everything got worse, from the regular season, to the playoffs, to the underlying metrics.
Like the fact that we got worse despite Treliving being handed a top tier team set up well
Like the fact that we got worse despite getting more internal help than we've gotten in ages, thanks to his predecessor.
Like the fact that we got worse despite the core 4 scoring more than they ever have.
Like the fact that we got worse, and not only are Treliving's fingerprints all over why, but the failures were all easily predicted when he made the decisions.
It's context like that that makes it even worse.

Dubas put the team in a compromised position with poor cap management, then traded a pile of futures for UFAs who all walked away.

He put him in a golden position. We didn't have poor cap management, and Treliving's decision to let everybody walk or trade them away should have been followed up by an actual plan to use all the cap space he had to address the things that actually needed addressing and replacing, instead of going all in on being a snotty mess.

That happens when you go all in the previous year.....

No, it doesn't. As we already discussed in the other thread, it takes time for picks to turn into players providing on-ice impact.
The picks we traded last year didn't impact our team this year. We had plenty of prospect help this year.

If you're going to see any impact, it would be years down the line, but so far, it's looking like even that will be mitigated because of the drafting in the years we had less picks. 2021, which has already produced Knies. And 2023, which produced what's looking like a hit in Cowan. I guess we'll see how Treliving drafts in 2025, but if we haven't won by the late 2020s, I think our issues stretch beyond one thin draft.

 

[Menzinger]

He ends his first year with a mixed results. I liked a decent amount of his moves (especially Domi, Bert, Edmundson), but moving forward he needs to be more aggressive at fixing mistakes as they become apparent (Klingberg for example, his LTIR space was essentially wasted)

 

[LeafEgo]

...... Leafs know how to play tight games, come back, win the right way. Felt after game 6 the best he's felt about the Leafs. Have to stick with that for the long haul......Felt this series was the best he felt about this group being able to play a playoff type of game consistently. Felt they came up big in big moments against Tampa, but in terms of their process and buyin for defending and physicality, that is the recipe for success. It takes what it takes. Felt his group took big steps......

From the Taks summaries in the 'Exit Interviews' thread.

Time for Keefer to go but he certainly knows the basics.

Poor guy got a raw deal that this had to be season five for him and not season 1.

 

[LeafEgo]

He ends his first year with a mixed results. I liked a decent amount of his moves (especially Domi, Bert, Edmundson), but moving forward he needs to be more aggressive at fixing mistakes as they become apparent (Klingberg for example, his LTIR space was essentially wasted)

He tried, even shopped Willy, just didn't force an immediate solution.

When nothing came up he utilized Klings cap at the deadline on assets that helped us build the best playoffs d corps we have had at the expense of essentially nothing (3rd rounds and up).

All signs point to him applying tactical patience and prioritizing the out years...when we can fully recover.

 

[Mess]

He ends his first year with a mixed results. I liked a decent amount of his moves (especially Domi, Bert, Edmundson), but moving forward he needs to be more aggressive at fixing mistakes as they become apparent (Klingberg for example, his LTIR space was essentially wasted)

What do you mean by Klingberg LTIR space wasted?

The total LTIR of Muzzin, Murray and Klingberg came to $14,462,500 and Leafs re-used $14,145,821 of that total by overspending the $83,500,000 Hard Cap to $97,645,821.

Muzzin and Murray both in LTIR had the same impact and limitations on Treliving then Klingberg did.. There was no unused cap space as Leafs final Cap space listed as Zero.

 

[IPS]

Trading every pick in the cupboard has its advantages.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ryan O'Reilly
Noel Acciari
for
2023 1st round pick (TOR - #25 - Otto Stenberg)
2024 2nd round pick (TOR - #56)
2023 3rd round pick (OTT - #76 - Juraj Pekarcik)
2025 4th round pick (TOR)

Jake McCabe
Sam Lafferty
2025 5th round pick (CHI)
2024 5th round pick (NSH - #151)

for

2025 1st round pick (TOR)
2026 2nd round pick (TOR)

Luke Schenn
for
2023 3rd round pick (TOR - #89 - Sawyer Mynio)

------------------------------------------------------

Pierre Engvall for 2024 3rd round pick (NYI - #83)
Rasmus Sandin for 2023 1st round pick (BOS - #28 - Easton Cowan)

Good lord thats terrible. We bled assets like no other trying to patch dumbasses sinking ship.

 

[Cleetus]

Good lord thats terrible. We bled assets like no other trying to patch dumbasses sinking ship.

Dubas was a complete failure, yet he is still brought up like he was good, he was anything but, he had his time, he failed, he is failing in Pitts, wont be long till he is out of this league, and back to a spreadsheet, thought this thread was for discussing actually employees of the leafs. happy to see what Brad does this offseason.

 

[hotpaws]

He ends his first year with a mixed results. I liked a decent amount of his moves (especially Domi, Bert, Edmundson), but moving forward he needs to be more aggressive at fixing mistakes as they become apparent (Klingberg for example, his LTIR space was essentially wasted)

so you wanted him to trade our 1st this year and/or Cowan because that's the only pieces of value that were left that weren't on the roster to find a quality upgrade

 

[Menzinger]

What do you mean by Klingberg LTIR space wasted?

The total LTIR of Muzzin, Murray and Klingberg came to $14,462,500 and Leafs re-used $14,145,821 of that total by overspending the $83,500,000 Hard Cap to $97,645,821.

By not finding replaceable asset of similar impact to what they intended Klingberg to be. They spent money, but on lesser players or on carrying extra depth.

He tried, even shopped Willy, just didn't force an immediate solution.

When nothing came up he utilized Klings cap at the deadline on assets that helped us build the best playoffs d corps we have had at the expense of essentially nothing (3rd rounds and up).

All signs point to him applying tactical patience and prioritizing the out years...when we can fully recover.

He may have tried, but will need to try harder or be more creative in future.

For example is tdl was fine, but Boosh and Edmundson were ultimately two #5's for 1 job. It's also fair to say he had constraints on what he could do - which is also fair - but part of the GM job is finding ways out of these situations.

 

[keonsbitterness]

He ends his first year with a mixed results. I liked a decent amount of his moves (especially Domi, Bert, Edmundson), but moving forward he needs to be more aggressive at fixing mistakes as they become apparent (Klingberg for example, his LTIR space was essentially wasted)

We essentially went sideways, same thing we've done every year after 16-17. When you go sideways for that long, it feels like going backwards.

 

[LeafEgo]

By not finding replaceable asset of similar impact to what they intended Klingberg to be. They spent money, but on lesser players or on carrying extra depth.



He may have tried, but will need to try harder or be more creative in future.

For example is tdl was fine, but Boosh and Edmundson were ultimately two #5's for 1 job. It's also fair to say he had constraints on what he could do - which is also fair - but part of the GM job is finding ways out of these situations.

Agreed but creativity is bound by parameters. We need a 1 but the cost would have been Cowan and 1st type assets and we don't know what was available for that cost.

Others will have different objectives for Tre but I want to see him get the top 4 D collected by the end of next season, taking time if necessary to get it right for when it matters most.

I dont know if he did well, but I know he didn't do poorly, and still has time.

Also think he did an admirable job giving up nothing meaningful to bide time but still offer us a punchers chance - we were better this year with 3rds and up instead of a fleet of 1sts and 2nds. Gives some positive insight to his understanding of the game.

 

[GoonieFace]

Dubas was a complete failure, yet he is still brought up like he was good, he was anything but, he had his time, he failed, he is failing in Pitts, wont be long till he is out of this league, and back to a spreadsheet, thought this thread was for discussing actually employees of the leafs. happy to see what Brad does this offseason.

I am not sure how anyone can honestly think Dubas was anything but a complete failure. I am intrigued by this off-season, but have the feeling nothing will change

 

[Dreakmur]

Oh many people here love that, but I'm all about the context.
Like the fact that everything got worse, from the regular season, to the playoffs, to the underlying metrics.
Like the fact that we got worse despite Treliving being handed a top tier team set up well
Like the fact that we got worse despite getting more internal help than we've gotten in ages, thanks to his predecessor.
Like the fact that we got worse despite the core 4 scoring more than they ever have.
Like the fact that we got worse, and not only are Treliving's fingerprints all over why, but the failures were all easily predicted when he made the decisions.
It's context like that that makes it even worse.

Dubas set the house on fire and you’re blaming the fire department…

He put him in a golden position. We didn't have poor cap management, and Treliving's decision to let everybody walk or trade them away should have been followed up by an actual plan to use all the cap space he had to address the things that actually needed addressing and replacing, instead of going all in on being a snotty mess.

Fool's Gold. We had a HORRIBLE cap structure. Even Dubas sounded like he knew that and was willing to trade a core-4.

Dubas left glaring holes in this team, and almost no assets to address those holes. I honestly think that's part of the reason he got himself fired.

No, it doesn't. As we already discussed in the other thread, it takes time for picks to turn into players providing on-ice impact.
The picks we traded last year didn't impact our team this year. We had plenty of prospect help this year.

If you're going to see any impact, it would be years down the line, but so far, it's looking like even that will be mitigated because of the drafting in the years we had less picks. 2021, which has already produced Knies. And 2023, which produced what's looking like a hit in Cowan. I guess we'll see how Treliving drafts in 2025, but if we haven't won by the late 2020s, I think our issues stretch beyond one thin draft.

How many years goes Dubas get? He was here for years, and how many players from this play-off run did he add to the roster? Samsonov - nice add.... Knies, McCabe, and Holmberg were all decent middle of the lineup contributors. That's it. Now you're trying to give him credit for a guy drafted after he was fired, and pretending we have a great pipeline.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Dubas set the house on fire and you’re blaming the fire department…

He was the fire department. He responded to a house on fire, put it out, gave a fire safety lesson to the owners, handed them a bunch of fire extinguishers, cleaned up their house, and forced them to fix fire hazards. And then when the house owner burnt down his house the next year anyway despite all that, you're somehow still blaming the fire department. Also, a bit weird how you advocated for considering the context, and then ignored all the context to make a weird analogy, because the context made Treliving look worse.

We had a HORRIBLE cap structure. Even Dubas sounded like he knew that and was willing to trade a core-4.
Dubas left glaring holes in this team, and almost no assets to address those holes.

There was nothing wrong with our cap structure, and we had plenty of assets.
Any holes Treliving opened up by letting people walk or trading them away should have and could have been filled in the offseason.
He just focused on all the wrong things.

He was here for years, and how many players from this play-off run did he add to the roster? Samsonov - nice add.... Knies, McCabe, and Holmberg were all decent middle of the lineup contributors. That's it. Now you're trying to give him credit for a guy drafted after he was fired, and pretending we have a great pipeline.

It's pretty weird to try and evaluate a GM's performance by the playoff roster the next GM puts together after he's gone. You're also missing quite a few players. He brought in Tavares, Marner, Knies, McCabe, Robertson, Holmberg, Jarnkrok, Kampf, Brodie, Samsonov, and McMann (who would have played if not injured) and re-signed Matthews, Nylander, Rielly, Liljegren, and Woll. Meanwhile, almost all of Treliving's additions to the playoff roster played poorly.

Now you're trying to avoid giving credit for hiring the guy that made a great draft pick, and pretending we don't have a solid prospect pipeline, despite four internal graduates this year, and more coming over the next few years.

 

[Racer88]

He was the fire department. He responded to a house on fire, put it out, gave a fire safety lesson to the owners, handed them a bunch of fire extinguishers, cleaned up their house, and forced them to fix fire hazards. And then when the house owner burnt down his house the next year anyway despite all that, you're somehow still blaming the fire department. Also, a bit weird how you advocated for considering the context, and then ignored all the context to make a weird analogy, because the context made Treliving look worse.

There was nothing wrong with our cap structure, and we had plenty of assets.
Any holes Treliving opened up by letting people walk or trading them away should have and could have been filled in the offseason.
He just focused on all the wrong things.

It's pretty weird to try and evaluate a GM's performance by the playoff roster the next GM puts together after he's gone. You're also missing quite a few players. He brought in Tavares, Marner, Knies, McCabe, Robertson, Holmberg, Jarnkrok, Kampf, Brodie, Samsonov, and McMann (who would have played if not injured) and re-signed Matthews, Nylander, Rielly, Liljegren, and Woll. Meanwhile, almost all of Treliving's additions to the playoff roster played poorly.

Now you're trying to avoid giving credit for hiring the guy that made a great draft pick, and pretending we don't have a solid prospect pipeline, despite four internal graduates this year, and more coming over the next few years.

The Tavares add and Dubas’s handling of the core 4 contracts plus his inability to get a real goaltender instead of relying on scrap heap reclamation projects is why we are in the mess we are,
Yes Tre didn’t make it any better but to say he made it worse is laughable at best

 

[Tak7]

The Tavares add and Dubas’s handling of the core 4 contracts plus his inability to get a real goaltender instead of relying on scrap heap reclamation projects is why we are in the mess we are,
Yes Tre didn’t make it any better but to say he made it worse is laughable at best

it's only one season, but objectively the team was worse this year - finished with worse record and won less in the playoffs.

I'm left wondering how Dubas would have handled last summer had he been given the chance - really sounds like he was willing to move off the core, at a time where you could probably have gotten more value for someone like Mitch

 

[Nineteen67]

I am not sure how anyone can honestly think Dubas was anything but a complete failure. I am intrigued by this off-season, but have the feeling nothing will change

Dubas was a failure. That history is written in the record books. The guy tried, but he had too many self-inflicted wounds to go along with the unforeseen circumstances.

This is the last year we can put any blame on Dubas and we should be thankful that he’s gone.

This season was always going to be a write-off, but they showed life in the playoffs.

Treliving jumped on moving train so it was impossible to begin the rebuild last summer, but it’s his team now and we’ll wait and see if he can build a contender.

 

[DarkKnight]

Interesting in the media circles, Tre receives a solid grade for the past season. Also everyone agrees we saw a Leaf team that started to finally look a playoff capable outfit. They didn’t get the job done, but even the American broadcasts note the difference. Nobody cares what some butt hurt Dubists fighting old battles think. Everything he does is wrong, simply incredibly biased partisans who really offer nothing to serious discussion. Again, amplified, repetitive posts, there is a disconnect to the perspective around the league, almost everything I read and see gives him a passing grade for year one. I do as well for that matter, and I also praised the Dube for his trade deadline last year, that’s the difference between fair people and clowns.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Muzzin and Murray both in LTIR had the same impact and limitations on Treliving then Klingberg did.

They didn't have any impacts or limitations. They were known in the offseason, and that cap space was used. We needed a top-4 defenseman, and somehow Treliving's solution was to overpay a bottom pairing defenseman that had fallen off a cliff, and then when he got injured, spend assets replacing him with more bottom pairing defensemen with pretty identical attributes to what we already had.

The Tavares add and Dubas’s handling of the core 4 contracts plus his inability to get a real goaltender instead of relying on scrap heap reclamation projects is why we are in the mess we are,

Bringing in a top player and re-signing your best players to reasonable contracts is not why we're in this mess.
Treliving had full choice over what goalies he wanted to go with. He wasn't locked into anything.

 

[Racer88]

it's only one season, but objectively the team was worse this year - finished with worse record and won less in the playoffs.

I'm left wondering how Dubas would have handled last summer had he been given the chance - really sounds like he was willing to move off the core, at a time where you could probably have gotten more value for someone like Mitch

They simply reverted to the normal first round loss in the playoffs. The regular season results were slightly worse but so was Marner, Reilly and Tavares and the goal tending so that probably has more to do with it then the moves Tre made and I’m not a true fan

They didn't have any impacts or limitations. They were known in the offseason, and that cap space was used. We needed a top-4 defenseman, and somehow Treliving's solution was to overpay a bottom pairing defenseman that had fallen off a cliff, and then when he got injured, spend assets replacing him with more bottom pairing defensemen with pretty identical attributes to what we already had.

Bringing in a top player and re-signing your best players to reasonable contracts is not why we're in this mess.
Treliving had full choice over what goalies he wanted to go with. He wasn't locked into anything.

Screwing with the internal cap structure and trying a build style that nobody has ever used before is what has screwed us and it will take whatever GM we years to fix it.
Did you not watch Tavares and Marner in the playoffs, they were horrific

 

[Dekes For Days]

The regular season results were slightly worse but so was Marner, Reilly and Tavares

For the record, the core 4 collectively scored more this year than they ever have.

Screwing with the internal cap structure and trying a build style that nobody has ever used before is what has screwed us

There was no issue with the internal cap structure, and having top players that you pay bigger money to is a common build style that Treliving doubled down on.
The adds Treliving made around it is what screwed us.

 

[IPS]

For the record, the core 4 collectively scored more this year than they ever have.

What 'bout playoffs? Did we get goalie'd again? Or is Tre not afforded that excuse in your books?

And what about injuries to them too? You gonna afford Tre that excuse too? Lord knows you'd be shouting it from the roof tops if this was Dubas running the team with those injuries to the core 4 in the playoffs.