Brad Treliving is doing a great job.

[Dekes For Days]

It looks like BT decided that secondary scoring was an issue.

Which is concerning, because it wasn't really an issue, and it took all of the focus away from things that actually needed addressing.
But worse than that is the fact that it was our focus, and so far, we've ended up with the worst secondary scoring we've ever had.

 

[Sypher04]

Which is concerning, because it wasn't really an issue, and it took all of the focus away from things that actually needed addressing.
But worse than that is the fact that it was our focus, and so far, we've ended up with the worst secondary scoring we've ever had.

Not sure I agree there, but it’s definitely not where we should have started. And yeah, the results are quite poor

 

[Gary Nylund]

I am excited for the future, with what Dubas and his scouting staff had been building the last several years. Pretty soon we will be adding the likes of Minten, Cowan, Grebenkin, Tverberg, Hirvonen, Holmberg etc. All guys that have a bit of Skill, physicality, tenacity and good defensive play to round out our roster and give us back that identity of a team that can play good 2 way hockey and bring some tenacity.

The problem with our pool though is we still lack Defense. Outside of Niemela, we don't really have a defense to really look forward to. Chadwick is having a great year and Koster, Kokkonen and Villeneuve are longer shots and are likely still a couple years away. Kokkonen might play next year. With those forward prospects I mentioned coming in on ELCS , we might have allocate our cap space to build our defense through FA.

This is I think a really good summary of how we're positioned for the future. We have most of our cap space allocated to forwards, and our prospect pool is almost all forwards. But our D is weak, and our prospect pool in terms of D is also weak.

Since we're committed now to 3 high priced forwards for the foreseeable future, the question becomes this - if we also commit to Marner as well, is there a realistic plan for improving our defence or is the logical move to move on from the Marner era, and hope we can use that cap space to fix our D on the UFA market? Or is there some other solution?

 

[Dekes For Days]

Not sure I agree there, but it’s definitely not where we should have started. And yeah, the results are quite poor

Between 2018-2023, our forward goals per game outside of the core 4 consistently ranged from 0.161 to 0.179. That would be above average (5th-7th best out of 16) among current playoff teams this year. This year, we are at 0.134. Which ranks 12th out of the 16 teams.

The scoring depth thing largely came out of a refusal to acknowledge goaltending impacts in small sample playoff series.

 

[Sypher04]

Between 2018-2023, our forward goals per game outside of the core 4 consistently ranged from 0.161 to 0.179. That would be above average (5th-7th best out of 16) among current playoff teams this year. This year, we are at 0.134. Which ranks 12th out of the 16 teams.

The scoring depth thing largely came out of a refusal to acknowledge goaltending impacts in small sample playoff series.

Okay but what if you only look at last season. I have a feeling that average is dragged up by our depth being better in earlier years though I could be wrong.

And I think issues about depth come back mostly to playoffs where our guys offense did not seem to translate. Are those playoff numbers you cited or regular season? Just out of curiosity.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Okay but what if you only look at last season. I have a feeling that average is dragged up by our depth being better in earlier years though I could be wrong.
And I think issues about depth come back mostly to playoffs where our guys offense did not seem to translate. Are those playoff numbers you cited or regular season? Just out of curiosity.

It wasn't an average. It was a range.

Forward goals per game outside of our core 4:

Toronto (2022) - 0.179
Toronto (2019) - 0.178
Toronto (2021) - 0.165
Toronto (2020) - 0.163
Toronto (2023) - 0.161
Toronto (2024) - 0.134

They are regular season numbers, and yes, the perception largely spawned out of the playoffs, but the perception was a misread of what was going on.

 

[Buds17]

I'd argue that secondary scoring was absolutely a problem and need when going by last season's playoffs. The only players who produced at an acceptable clip were Marner, Rielly, Matthews, Nylander, ROR, Tavares and Knies (with the latter only having played in 7 of 11 games). Eleven skaters (6F and 5D) had three or fewer points (in 11 or fewer GP). It'd be fine to point out that the current returns on the secondary scoring issue haven't gone quite to plan just yet though.

 

[acrobaticgoalie]

This is I think a really good summary of how we're positioned for the future. We have most of our cap space allocated to forwards, and our prospect pool is almost all forwards. But our D is weak, and our prospect pool in terms of D is also weak.

Since we're committed now to 3 high priced forwards for the foreseeable future, the question becomes this - if we also commit to Marner as well, is there a realistic plan for improving our defence or is the logical move to move on from the Marner era, and hope we can use that cap space to fix our D on the UFA market? Or is there some other solution?

I just took a look at the UFA list for this offseason. A lot of interesting options available. There are a bunch that likely get re signed by their teams though.

Skjei
Pesce
Handling
Tanev
Myers
Martinez
Roy
Hronek
Dillon
Zadorov
Grezelyk
Montour
E.Johnson
Demelo
Walker
Lindgren
Forsling
Fabbro
Forgot
Lyubushkin

Adding guys like Pesce and Tanev would be huge for our d core. I would worry that at Tanev's age he could see a big drop off like Brodie's.

With Marlies graduates and guys like Minten, Cowan, Grebenkin possibly stepping in, as well as more growth out of Knies, Robertson and Holmberg. I think the forwards will be fine. Allocate as much cap to the defense as possible.

 

[Gary Nylund]

I just took a look at the UFA list for this offseason. A lot of interesting options available. There are a bunch that likely get re signed by their teams though.

Skjei
Pesce
Handling
Tanev
Myers
Martinez
Roy
Hronek
Dillon
Zadorov
Grezelyk
Montour
E.Johnson
Demelo
Walker
Lindgren
Forsling
Fabbro
Forgot
Lyubushkin

Adding guys like Pesce and Tanev would be huge for our d core. I would worry that at Tanev's age he could see a big drop off like Brodie's.

With Marlies graduates and guys like Minten, Cowan, Grebenkin possibly stepping in, as well as more growth out of Knies, Robertson and Holmberg. I think the forwards will be fine. Allocate as much cap to the defense as possible.

I was thinking more in terms of next summer should we move on from Marner, not sure how much we have to play with this summer. But I agree in principle that whatever we do have to spend, should be spent on D.

 

[acrobaticgoalie]

I was thinking more in terms of next summer should we move on from Marner, not sure how much we have to play with this summer. But I agree in principle that whatever we do have to spend, should be spent on D.

Even with the raises to willy and Auston this summer, we have Domi, Bertuzzi, Klingberg, and Brodie's cap hits coming off the books. With the forwards graduating like I mentioned; there will be some money to spend. We will have possible raises coming to Robertson, Gregor, Lilly and Benoit though and figure out what we're doing with Samsonov and Jones.

We will have Tavares coming off the books the following year.

 

[notDatsyuk]

Pieces were added at the deadline to give a further boost to a top team, to help support the loss of Muzzin, and to get cap efficient pieces that could help us beyond that year.

Pieces were added at the deadline to try to rescue a mediocre team again, and to get cap efficient pieces that could help other teams beyond that year.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Pieces were added at the deadline to try to rescue a mediocre team again, and to get cap efficient pieces that could help other teams beyond that year.

The Leafs were among the league leaders sustainably pacing for 110 points and getting good offense, defense, and goaltending when the first big trade was made. Very obviously not a "mediocre team", or a team in need of "rescue". The second big trade brought in a 50% retained McCabe, who is a cap efficient piece that is still currently helping us, and Lafferty, who would be a cap efficient piece still currently helping us if Treliving hadn't made the bad decision to trade him away. Unsurprisingly, your claims are wrong again.

 

[Dreakmur]

The Leafs were among the league leaders sustainably pacing for 110 points and getting good offense, defense, and goaltending when the first big trade was made. Very obviously not a "mediocre team", or a team in need of "rescue". The second big trade brought in a 50% retained McCabe, who is a cap efficient piece that is still currently helping us, and Lafferty, who would be a cap efficient piece still currently helping us if Treliving hadn't made the bad decision to trade him away. Unsurprisingly, your claims are wrong again.

They have been very good playing regular season shinny. Play-off hockey? not so much. Mediocre would probably be a generous description of their play-off results...

 

[RunItBackAgain]

I was thinking more in terms of next summer should we move on from Marner, not sure how much we have to play with this summer. But I agree in principle that whatever we do have to spend, should be spent on D.

It’s actually viable with the cap that we could afford Hanifin AND Pesce this summer if we fill the remaining spots with near league min players.

 

[notDatsyuk]

The Leafs were among the league leaders sustainably pacing for 110 points and getting good offense, defense, and goaltending when the first big trade was made. Very obviously not a "mediocre team", or a team in need of "rescue". The second big trade brought in a 50% retained McCabe, who is a cap efficient piece that is still currently helping us, and Lafferty, who would be a cap efficient piece still currently helping us if Treliving hadn't made the bad decision to trade him away. Unsurprisingly, your claims are wrong again.

Bizarre, but I'm used to it from you.

Oddly enough I didn't make any claims, I just corrected your statement.

Of course I'm sure you will never admit that, as you never admit any of your mistakes.

Do you really think one win in six tries is "among the league leaders"?

You're rarely right Dekes, but you are usually entertaining.

 

[weems]

Treliving has definitely had a questionable first season.

Bertuzzi has been pretty bad for what was expected.

Domi has been alright but you can see the limitations in his game.

Reaves stunk, Klingberg stunk and/or was injured.

The depth moves of Benoit, M Jones, Gregor, Laggesson have been the best moves.

One thing that isn't getting enough talk is how much Tavares, Brodie and Samsonov have under performed for what was expected.

That's almost 20 million in cap space right there and at the start of the season almost everyone would have agreed our #2 C, #2 D and #1 Goalie.

That is extremely important depth after our superstars / Rielly and right now they ain't getting the job done.

 

[Rare Jewel]

I just took a look at the UFA list for this offseason. A lot of interesting options available. There are a bunch that likely get re signed by their teams though.

Skjei
Pesce
Handling
Tanev
Myers
Martinez
Roy
Hronek
Dillon
Zadorov
Grezelyk
Montour
E.Johnson
Demelo
Walker
Lindgren
Forsling
Fabbro
Forgot
Lyubushkin

Adding guys like Pesce and Tanev would be huge for our d core. I would worry that at Tanev's age he could see a big drop off like Brodie's.

With Marlies graduates and guys like Minten, Cowan, Grebenkin possibly stepping in, as well as more growth out of Knies, Robertson and Holmberg. I think the forwards will be fine. Allocate as much cap to the defense as possible.

his name?

Also, Fabbro and Hronek are RFA's as well.


Marlies grads? they haven't played there yet, and yet, I keep seeing depth charts with them for next year. Tverberg seems like the next one up, and I rarely see him referenced.

 

[rumman]

Treliving has definitely had a questionable first season.

Bertuzzi has been pretty bad for what was expected.

Domi has been alright but you can see the limitations in his game.

Reaves stunk, Klingberg stunk and/or was injured.

The depth moves of Benoit, M Jones, Gregor, Laggesson have been the best moves.

One thing though that isn't getting enough talk is how much Tavares, Brodie and Samsonov have under performed for what was expected.

That's almost 20 million in cap space right there and at the start of the season almost everyone would have agreed our #2 C, #2 D and #1 Goalie.

That is extremely important depth after our superstars / Rielly and right now they ain't getting the job done.

can't really blame the new GM for these imo, luckily two of the three won't be here next season..........

 

[GoonieFace]

Bizarre, but I'm used to it from you.

Oddly enough I didn't make any claims, I just corrected your statement.

Of course I'm sure you will never admit that, as you never admit any of your mistakes.

Do you really think one win in six tries is "among the league leaders"?

You're rarely right Dekes, but you are usually entertaining.

Whenever you have to use not keeping Lafferty in your argument, you have already lost

 

[Dekes For Days]

Oddly enough I didn't make any claims, I just corrected your statement.
Of course I'm sure you will never admit that, as you never admit any of your mistakes.
Do you really think one win in six tries is "among the league leaders"?

There was nothing in my statement to correct. I'm more than willing to admit mistakes when I make them, but it was all accurate, as I showed. You're the one currently unwilling to admit you were wrong. I'm also willing to stand behind my statements and substantiate them, while you're refusing to even admit the things you said an hour ago.
You made multiple claims.
You claimed that we were a mediocre team - wrong.
You claimed that we needed rescuing - wrong.
You suggested that we didn't get cap efficient pieces to help beyond that year - wrong.
I think sustainably pacing for 110 points among the league leaders qualifies as being "among the league leaders", and so does the rest of the hockey world.
It's unclear what you think "1 win in 6 tries" has to do with our team at the deadline last year.

 

[Menzinger]

Treliving has definitely had a questionable first season.

Bertuzzi has been pretty bad for what was expected.

Domi has been alright but you can see the limitations in his game.

Reaves stunk, Klingberg stunk and/or was injured.

The depth moves of Benoit, M Jones, Gregor, Laggesson have been the best moves.

One thing that isn't getting enough talk is how much Tavares, Brodie and Samsonov have under performed for what was expected.

That's almost 20 million in cap space right there and at the start of the season almost everyone would have agreed our #2 C, #2 D and #1 Goalie.

That is extremely important depth after our superstars / Rielly and right now they ain't getting the job done.

Imo we as fans and Leafs management got a bit too swept up in Burt's on ice impact based on him having a few hot playoff games with the Bruins.

He had 8 goals in 50 regular season games last year while shooting under 8%. Which is point for about 3 more goals than he's current pacing for.

I think we just got to accept he's fairly limited as a player most of the time.

 

[weems]

Imo we as fans and Leafs management got a bit too swept up in Burt's on ice impact based on him having a few hot playoff games with the Bruins.

He had 8 goals in 50 regular season games last year while shooting under 8%. Which is point for about 3 more goals than he's current pacing for.

I think we just got to accept he's fairly limited as a player most of the time.

Sure but he's also a player that previously had a nice sample of consistently scoring goals with DET, got hurt alot but ended last season on a upward trend.

He has been pretty bad for us when you consider he's mostly paid to score goals because he's not really a defensive savant and is very slow.

I was one of the more vocal posters in favour of signing Bertuzzi and so far it's been close to a bust signing.

 

[notDatsyuk]

There was nothing in my statement to correct. I'm more than willing to admit mistakes when I make them, but it was all accurate, as I showed. You're the one currently unwilling to admit you were wrong. I'm also willing to stand behind my statements and substantiate them, while you're refusing to even admit the things you said an hour ago.
You made multiple claims.
You claimed that we were a mediocre team - wrong.
You claimed that we needed rescuing - wrong.
You suggested that we didn't get cap efficient pieces to help beyond that year - wrong.
I think sustainably pacing for 110 points among the league leaders qualifies as being "among the league leaders", and so does the rest of the hockey world.
It's unclear what you think "1 win in 6 tries" has to do with our team at the deadline last year.

Dekes, if I agreed with you then we'd both be wrong.

And sorry if I misled you. I meant currently, but if you are only looking at it from the trade deadline last year, then it was zero wins in four tries, which I think is even more an indication that we aren't "among the league leaders". Thanks for proving my point even better.

 

[Dekes For Days]

And sorry if I misled you. I meant currently, but if you are only looking at it from the trade deadline last year, then it was zero wins in four tries, which I think is even more an indication that we aren't "among the league leaders".

If you think the quality of a team in any given season is better represented by the context-stripped playoff series win rate over the team's previous 4 seasons than their point percentage in that season, then that's your choice. I can't stop you from being wrong.

 

[Menzinger]

Sure but he's also a player that previously had a nice sample of consistently scoring goals with DET, got hurt alot but ended last season on a upward trend.

He has been pretty bad for us when you consider he's mostly paid to score goals because he's not really a defensive savant and is very slow.

I was one of the more vocal posters in favour of signing Bertuzzi and so far it's been close to a bust signing.

I was excited when he was signed too, but he's been very sadly disappointing so far.

Unless they're banking on him really turning it up in the playoffs, I'd like to see him traded for another player in a hockey deal. Find another reclamation project and shake up the top 9 a bit with a new body without having to trade any futures