Brad Treliving is doing a great job.

[Dekes For Days]

I'd like to see him traded for another player in a hockey deal. Find another reclamation project and shake up the top 9 a bit with a new body without having to trade any futures

If we're going to make a trade, switching Bertuzzi for something else would be my preference too. Ideally, we could get a defenseman for him, and give Robertson his spot.
Could potentially get better offensively and defensively with one move, and avoid using futures.

 

[Buds17]

Imo we as fans and Leafs management got a bit too swept up in Burt's on ice impact based on him having a few hot playoff games with the Bruins.

He had 8 goals in 50 regular season games last year while shooting under 8%. Which is point for about 3 more goals than he's current pacing for.

I think we just got to accept he's fairly limited as a player most of the time.

His career averages should have him at just over 20 goals and slightly in excess of 50 points (with the latter total being of the greatest importance to me). Unfortunately, he isn't even pacing for 40 points at the moment. He has quite easily been a better player prior to what we've witnessed thus far this season.

 

[acrobaticgoalie]

his name?

Also, Fabbro and Hronek are RFA's as well.


Marlies grads? they haven't played there yet, and yet, I keep seeing depth charts with them for next year. Tverberg seems like the next one up, and I rarely see him referenced.

Forbort. Auto correct lol.

Didn't notice that they were RFA. I had Googled UFA list and they were on the list that came up. Didn't look carefully enough I guess. Good catch.

I said Marlies grads and those guys I named that aren't in the AHL. Minten got his 9 games out of camp and wouldn't be surprising if he makes the Leafs next year. Cowan got a couple games and it's either leafs or back to junior for him again next year. Very decent chance he makes it. All signs are pointing to Grebenkin coming over to NA and has been an excellent pro thus far.

Tverberg is killing it for the Marlies. McMann could very well be a full timer next year. If Hirvonen can get through the rest of the year healthy and have a solid season, he has a chance. Steeves and Bellows have been excellent for the Marlies as well.

 

[Racer88]

If we're going to make a trade, switching Bertuzzi for something else would be my preference too. Ideally, we could get a defenseman for him, and give Robertson his spot.
Could potentially get better offensively and defensively with one move, and avoid using futures.

Do you think Bertuzzi as a rental would get you anything that would help the team?

 

[notDatsyuk]

If you think the quality of a team in any given season is better represented by the context-stripped playoff series win rate over the team's previous 4 seasons than their point percentage in that season, then that's your choice. I can't stop you from being wrong.

Wow! Even with editing my post you can't stop being wrong. Impressive as always.

And for the record, yes, performance when it's important is more significant than performance when it isn't.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Do you think Bertuzzi as a rental would get you anything that would help the team?

It wouldn't return a ton, but it could bring back something that positively impacts our defensive results, and I think that would help us more than whatever offensive difference may exist between Bertuzzi and an internal option like Robertson. I don't have much faith that Treliving would move off Bertuzzi, but I'd much prefer something like that over spending futures this year.

His career averages should have him at just over 20 goals and slightly in excess of 50 points (with the latter total being of the greatest importance to me). Unfortunately, he isn't even pacing for 40 points at the moment. He has quite easily been a better player prior to what we've witnessed thus far this season.

He's had a lot of injuries, and most critically, he broke both hands, and his shot has suffered since. I'm not sure if he's ever going to get back to his previous career averages.

And for the record, yes, performance when it's important is more significant than performance when it isn't.

You got so vague all of a sudden, as if you're trying to hide your stated position. If you're going to argue that a team's quality in any given season is best represented by the context-stripped playoff series win rate of different combinations of players up to 4 years prior, instead of how the team actually performs in that season, then stand by your obviously incorrect claim. If you want to argue that a 110 point team is "mediocre", then that's your choice. The rest of the hockey world will continue evaluating a team's performance in a season by their performance in that season; using the bigger, more recent, and more representative sample.

 

[Bomber0104]

Wow! Even with editing my post you can't stop being wrong. Impressive as always.

And for the record, yes, performance when it's important is more significant than performance when it isn't.

From a 4-time Stanley Cup winner:

“What is the object of this exercise?” says Keon. “At the start of the year when you gather in training camp, the object of the exercise to win the Stanley Cup.

“If you have all of these players putting up great numbers and you've won one playoff series in eight years or nine years, and you haven't even played for the Stanley Cup, then you have to take a look in the mirror.”

Hmmm, no mention of trying to get as many regular season points as possible....just the Stanley Cup.

Weird!

 

[rumman]

From a 4-time Stanley Cup winner:



Hmmm, no mention of trying to get as many regular season points as possible....just the Stanley Cup.

Weird!

Keon wasn’t a Presiden’s Trophy kind of guy, he knew the real prize was, is, and will ever be the Stanley Cup………

 

[Hellcat]

Do you think Bertuzzi as a rental would get you anything that would help the team?

Nope but if we were to trade him he would score 30 goals in 16 games.

 

[notDatsyuk]

You got so vague all of a sudden, as if you're trying to hide your stated position. If you're going to argue that a team's quality in any given season is best represented by the context-stripped playoff series win rate of different combinations of players up to 4 years prior, instead of how the team actually performs in that season, then stand by your obviously incorrect claim. If you want to argue that a 110 point team is "mediocre", then that's your choice. The rest of the hockey world will continue evaluating a team's performance in a season by their performance in that season; using the bigger, more recent, and more representative sample.

I'm sure your twisted logic can't agree that the playoffs are more important than the regular season, and therefore a better indication of the quality of the team.

The very fact that you have to call such a simple statement of fact 'vague', and put in a lot of qualifiers, once again proves me right.

Thanks.

 

[SnizzNasty88]

How any of you donkeys in here could even utter any defense for that absolute fraud Dubas is quite laughable. By far the worst GM we’ve ever had. Was handed the best possible thing and did absolutely nothing with it. He made the team unequivocally softer and made so many bad moves that are directly effecting us and will for years. Kadri, Hyman, McCann, Marchment, a 1st for Foligno and the absolute piss poor decisions with goaltending are just the tip of the iceberg. Not even going to get into the contracts given out over the years. Dubas was a seemingly never ending nightmare and I thank God every day that it’s over. Tre has a lot of mess to clean up and it will take time. Imagine that. While all of our studs are in their prime. What an absolute joke. We had Sweet Lou to begin with. Shanny and Dubas, the most destructive duo in NHL history. There’s so many more bad things Dubas did that I haven’t even mentioned. The worst GM this team has ever had and ruined the most promising rebuild in NHL history. Could you imagine willingly and conciously PROTECTING Justin Holl, my God…

 

[notDatsyuk]

From a 4-time Stanley Cup winner:



Hmmm, no mention of trying to get as many regular season points as possible....just the Stanley Cup.

Weird!

But I'm sure dekes knows a lot more about hockey than the greatest Leafs player.

 

[4thline]

I'm sure your twisted logic can't agree that the playoffs are more important than the regular season, and therefore a better indication of the quality of the team..

They're more important, and more emotionally satisfying.

But what is a better indicator- the cumulative result of 82 games of hockey, or a result that came down to even 7 game series against strong teams decided by bad game 7, or even a bad single period within?

You can't fluke 110 points, but you can choke away a series.

Good teams can fail with the chips down, it's why they're not remembered as great (or as choke artists).

 

[4thline]

But in keeping with the thread topic

Tre's offseason had three primary flaws

Tried to address secondary scoring by making the top 6 more top heavy
Completely ignored the importance of defensive and transition ability in the bottom 6
Completely ignored pk.

All are fixable moving forward. We might even be able to overcome them this season. But weird work from a supposed "hockey" man.

 

[notDatsyuk]

They're more important, and more emotionally satisfying.

But what is a better indicator- the cumulative result of 82 games of hockey, or a result that came down to even 7 game series against strong teams decided by bad game 7, or even a bad single period within?

You can't fluke 110 points, but you can choke away a series.

Good teams can fail with the chips down, it's why they're not remembered as great (or as choke artists).

Which is a better indication of quality:

that you can collect lots of points playing half your games against weaker teams, with a lot of bonus points

or

that you fail miserably every single time the games become significant and winning is critical?

If the object of playing in the NHL is to do pretty well in the regular season, then yes, the Leafs are a good team.

If the object of playing in the NHL is to win the Stanley Cup, then no, they aren't.

 

[Dekes For Days]

I'm sure your twisted logic can't agree that the playoffs are more important than the regular season, and therefore a better indication of the quality of the team.

Whether the playoffs in any given season are more important to you as a fan than that regular season is irrelevant, and not what was being discussed.

The question is about representative value, and it's an undeniable fact that a big sample of current results for a current team against a wide range of opponents is more representative of that current team's quality than a small, outdated sample of the playoff series outcomes that past iterations of the team with the same name had against past iterations of a couple specific opponents; devoid of all context.

The fact that you're deflecting from acknowledging your own stated position on the very thing you brought up and argued really just shows that even you've realized that you're wrong. If you don't want to admit it, and want to keep pretending that a 110 point team is "mediocre" and in need of "rescue", I don't really care.

 

[RunItBackAgain]

Someone make a poll and post it on the mains. I’m sure the masses think regular season success matters

 

[notDatsyuk]

Whether the playoffs in any given season are more important to you as a fan than that regular season is irrelevant, and not what was being discussed.

The question is about representative value, and it's an undeniable fact that a big sample of current results for a current team against a wide range of opponents is more representative of that current team's quality than a small, outdated sample of the playoff series outcomes that past iterations of the team with the same name had against past iterations of a couple specific opponents; devoid of all context.

The fact that you're deflecting from acknowledging your own stated position on the very thing you brought up and argued really just shows that even you've realized that you're wrong. If you don't want to admit it, and want to keep pretending that a 110 point team is "mediocre" and in need of "rescue", I don't really care.

Again,. even editing my posts, you can't come up with a good rebuttal.

You accuse me of 'deflecting', which I haven't done, but you have several times in just this one post.

But ok - whatever fantasy you have to believe in to support your bizarre love of Dubas.

It's fun laughing at your odd takes, but that's enough for today.

 

[Jojalu]

Do you think Bertuzzi as a rental would get you anything that would help the team?

After the Monahan and Lindholm trades I think it would be a better return that I previously thought.

 

[Jojalu]

Someone make a poll and post it on the mains. I’m sure the masses think regular season success matters

I will say this.

A lot of people downplay the importance of the regular season. The ultimate goal has always, and will always be to win the Cup.

Since expansion, followed by the Cap era, it has become increasingly more difficult to achieve.

The fact that the Leafs have never won more than 2 rounds since the expansion is flat out awful. Seems almost impossible really.

But the 82 game grind of the regular season provides a tonne of entertainment, as well as compelling storylines.

Where when it was a 21 team league, you could slip in with a 65 point season. Now normally you need 90-95. With parity and 3 point games, a lot more regular season games have an impact.

While you can never become the greatest player all time without winning, a lot of HOF careers are forged by the grind of the regular season. You have to maintain health, you have to produce night in, night out.

Just win the f!@#$ing cup one time!!

 

[Bluebear]

I think we need to wait until Treliving makes some bigger moves or piles up at least another season or two to judge this past season to harshly.

IMO people can defend Dubas and look at this or that, but overall he made a couple huge mistakes that defined his term as useless.

1st he pissed away assets at the deadline every year even though the team had given no hints that it was ready to compete for the cup. IMO he should have stuck to his guns and built the team through drafts and infrequent teambuilding trades that move the needle long term. He could have been patient and piled up assets and developed and then pulled the trigger on a blockbuster or maybe found the missing pieces through the draft picks he kept.

2nd I don't mind him sticking with the core 4 and even that he got a bit bent over on the $$, but he should have insisted on keeping flexibility and ability to trade them. He could have committed to keeping them together in the media on general terms but made comments about how things change and would evaluate after every season. He did the contracts so it makes it very difficult to shake the team up.

Treliving is in a tough spot now where he has minimal assets and the stars have him over a barrel if he is looking to move one of them. Dubas would have been in tough to undo these problems if he was here today as well.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Again,. even editing my posts, you can't come up with a good rebuttal.
You accuse me of 'deflecting', which I haven't done, but you have several times in just this one post.

Just to be clear, nothing in your posts have been edited. There have also been no deflections from me. I was asked a question about why we added at the deadline last year, and I gave an accurate answer. "Pieces were added at the deadline to give a further boost to a top team, to help support the loss of Muzzin, and to get cap efficient pieces that could help us beyond that year." That statement remains true.

You quoted me and argued that a 110 point team was "mediocre" and in need of "rescue", and suggested that we didn't receive cap efficient pieces with term. I explained to you why you were wrong on each point and you shifted to arguing that the only thing that mattered when evaluating a team's quality in a season was the team's contextless playoff series outcomes 1-4 years prior, and not how they were actually performing or the results they were getting in that season. I then explained to you why that was wrong, and you shifted to arguing about the "importance" of certain games to fans/players, instead of the representative value of the different samples that we were discussing. I've done all I can, but I can't help somebody that refuses to be helped.

If Treliving had actually been able to keep this as a 110+ point team, he would be adding this deadline too, just like any GM.

 

[4thline]

Which is a better indication of quality:

that you can collect lots of points playing half your games against weaker teams, with a lot of bonus points

or

that you fail miserably every single time the games become significant and winning is critical?

Is a bad team losing in 7 games failing miserably?
Or is the failure of losing in 7 contextualized as miserable by being a good team that repeatedly fails to perform to their ability when the chips are down?

Are concepts of choking, upsets, favourites, contenders, etc etc. all mirages, or do we have an understanding of the quality of teams and subsequent expectations based on the regular season?

 

[Leaf Fans]

Someone make a poll and post it on the mains. I’m sure the masses think regular season success matters

What would the title be?

 

[RunItBackAgain]

What would the title be?

Not sure there's a lot of variation within this question.