Brad Treliving- 1st year complete.

[Racer88]

What has Treliving accomplished to make you think he is competent?

He wasn't the worst option, but I keep seeing you say this and I think it is wishful thinking, not based on any logic.



$20 million in cap space and being able to trade Minten, Knies, Robertson, Greb, Cowan, Niemela, and multiple firsts is enough to work with.

This talking point is so silly.

He just spent the total of Marner and Tavares' money on Samsanov, Klingberg, Bert, Domi, Reaves, and Kampf. I'd rather have Marner and Tavares.

He gets to do it again this year.

Soooooo 9 years of running this same core back that can’t get it done…..interesting plan

 

[notbias]

Soooooo 9 years of running this same core back that can’t get it done…..interesting plan

I'm fine with changes, was fine with changes last year too, but pretending he has no flexibility is just not true.

My whole point about the second part of that is that the available cap doesn't mean that it will be spent well, the $20 million he spent last year didn't contribute the way you'd expect it to. The best player from that group was Domi who contributed 4 points in 7 games.

Once again, changing things and reallocating the cap is fine, but there is still flexibility now if they can't make changes, just spend the cap space better this year.

This isn't a new issue and we haven't brought in great contributors most years, but it isn't due to a lack of cap space.

 

[Racer88]

I'm fine with changes, was fine with changes last year too, but pretending he has no flexibility is just not true.

My whole point about the second part of that is that the available cap doesn't mean that it will be spent well, the $20 million he spent last year didn't contribute the way you'd expect it to. The best player from that group was Domi who contributed 4 points in 7 games.

Once again, changing things and reallocating the cap is fine, but there is still flexibility now if they can't make changes, just spend the cap space better this year.

This isn't a new issue and we haven't brought in great contributors most years, but it isn't due to a lack of cap space.

Fair enough, I get the context of your comments. I’m not super thrilled with Treliving so far.
All I know is I am so tired of losing that it’s going to be really tough watching then if they run the same thing back again. That said I will end up watching every game again next year. Lol

 

[PROUD PAPA]

An interesting 1st year for Tre. There were some positive signs like recognizing the team needs more physicality and attempting to address it and keeping our 1st was also a positive. He made some moves that didn't really have much of an impact as well. Only the Klingberg signing which fortunately is already in the rear view mirror and that horrible Nylander contract were negatives though I won't argue with anyone hating the Reeves signing, especially the term.
The next 2 seasons are huge for the near future and could easily impact the distant future as well. Hope he knocks it out of the park.

 

[Jimmy Firecracker]

Thought he was just fine. A goal away from the peak of this core so far which is a second round appearance but you can't predict Nylander suddenly experiencing migraines the day before the postseason starts, Matthews getting injured, or your top goalie and reason it even went to 7 injuring himself in the last second of Game 6. Looking at his overall body of work there were a few errors but most of his moves were on the positive end.

His first mistake was keeping that idiot Keefe who had by this time last year proven he didn't have it in the postseason. I suppose he didn't want to rock the boat too much but that mindset should've only been reserved for keeping the core players (which he did), not holding on to a coach who had by this point proven he couldn't strategize his way out of a wet paper bag. Second was not trading Marner before his NMC kicked in. He either didn't want to make such a deal in such little time without knowing this team or all the facts or Shanahan forbid it. Either way it's hard to blame him for not moving on such a monumental change when he was so new, but given this franchises current predicament it's still worth mentioning.

First few free agent signings were head-scratching to say the least. Re-signing Kampf to that AAV and term was dumb then and it's dumb now. I can understand being worried about centre depth after ROR told the organization to get stuffed but Kamp was and is nowhere near worth that. Klingberg and Reaves were also not good. Reaves at least carved out a role for himself and was semi-effective on the ice, Klingberg was an issue from Game 1 and while we now know the reason why it still wasn't a great signing. Lagesson and Lajoie were solid D-depth so not much to complain about there.

The next few free agent signings are where he really started to shine and make up for things. Bertuzzi and Domi were brought in for secondary offence and grit and they both did good in their roles. Took a while for them to get going since Keefe had zero idea how to utilize them to start (unless you're a core player or a vanilla player who's safe defensively Keefe doesn't seem to know what to do with you). Martin Jones was a great 3rd stringer, Benoit was a revelation and is the type of glue guy this team needs, and Gregor was serviceable as a fourth liner. When it came to free agent signings there was no great, lots of good, and one disaster that thankfully was able to be buried.

Also important to consider who he didn't sign and hold on to as much as who he did sign. While it sucked to lose players like Schenn and Acciari along with ROR I'm glad Treliving didn't give in to their demands and let them walk. Benoit plays the Schenn role well even if he can't play beside Rielly, and while Acciari is effective you want someone younger to play his role, his age makes me weary to commit the term and money he got from Pittsburgh. Would've liked to have kept Gustafsson instead of signing Klingberg but Keefe didn't seem to like him or use him last season and postseason. Holl was addition by subtraction. Bunting I'm still not sure if I would've liked to have back, great pest and skilled but if the refs were gonna continue to treat him like shit here he wasn't going to be too effective. Bertuzzi and Domi play heavier and Domi also has the added advantage of being able to play centre. Maybe could've used the Klingberg money on Bunting but with the amount of wingers upcoming in the system it's not that massive of a loss and it's better that we have that cap-space for a defenseman or a goalie.

As for trades, again I think he was fine, he played it pretty safe in this regard. Lafferty was an early one that a lot of us maligned due to Lafferty starting hot (of course) and Reaves looking like a below-replacement level player. Ultimately it didn't matter as Lafferty proved his futileness in the playoffs again with Vancouver and the Leafs upped McMann and acquired Dewar who play a similar role. Really our bigger issue with this whole drama should've been the fact that the Leafs re-signed Kampf to that ridiculous contract when Lafferty was already in the fold and could play centre. I'm going to assume Keefe got in Treliving's ear and stressed Kampf's importance given how much he relies on him, God forbid he goes a season without one soft tweener whose defensive capabilities are overexaggerated.

At the TDL, I personally was more than okay not taking big swings like in years past and dealing another first round pick or any of our higher-end prospects for more rentals or guys who would supposedly put us over the top. Lyubushkin performed well with Rielly in the playoffs, Edmundson was fine in a bottom-pairing role and brought it physically, and Dewar looks like he'll be a serviceable bottom-six defensive specialist and is young enough to still improve and grow with the team. None of these guys were Hanifin or Tanev or Walker or Guentzel or Lindholm but this team didn't show they were worthy of spending big on trade additions this season, nor has it helped them much in the past anyway. And when you get down to it none of these guys cost us in the playoffs and if anything had a bigger positive impact than negative. The Cade Webber deal may become a minor stroke of genius but we'll see how he develops.

I like his re-signings of McMann and Benoit. The Nylander and Matthews contracts are also fine, no discount from either of them of course but at this point expecting that of them is a pipe-dream, that ship sailed long ago thanks to the last administration. Holmberg deal was good but only makes the question of why we signed Kampf more head-scratching. Going to arbitration with Samsonov was fine, wish the arbitrator ruled more in our favour but whatever, at least he didn't commit long term to Samsonov and his money can go towards a more stable goalie.

All in all I'd give him a "B" for the 2023-24 season. Majority of his signings worked, he didn't get sucked into trading another chunk of this team's future for a two week postseason, and he did what he set out to do which is change the culture of the team. People may laugh but it does mean something that this team finally showed a good level of pushback and aggressiveness not seen in years. Better to go down in 7 swinging than how this team usually did, which is completely wilting and getting bullied along the way. It will pay dividends in the future when instead of cowering and nervously laughing guys like Knies, Cowan, Minten, Robertson, and Benoit will show some fight instead.

 

[Tak7]

Exactly - and if he knows who is available and the price and decides it's not appropriate, should we accept his decision?

If it gets to that point, absolutely.

We aren't at that point though, clearly

 

[notDatsyuk]

If it gets to that point, absolutely.

We aren't at that point though, clearly

So your opinion is that he didn't have the information he needed when he made the decision?

Fair enough - that's your opinion. Do you have anything to back it up beyond that you didn't like his decision?

 

[Tak7]

So your opinion is that he didn't have the information he needed when he made the decision?

No - that he didn't shop Marner last summer when he should have. Once you didn't like the Nylander return, you should have replaced Nylander with Marner, and seen if anything changed.

Fair enough - that's your opinion. Do you have anything to back it up beyond that you didn't like his decision?

We would have known if they were shopping Marner, in the same way that we knew that they shopped Nylander.

Impossible to do that quietly and not have it get out, somewhere - especially if it involves Marner's camp, who let everything get out.

 

[notDatsyuk]

No - that he didn't shop Marner last summer when he should have. Once you didn't like the Nylander return, you should have replaced Nylander with Marner, and seen if anything changed.


We would have known if they were shopping Marner, in the same way that we knew that they shopped Nylander.

Impossible to do that quietly and not have it get out, somewhere - especially if it involves Marner's camp, who let everything get out.

OK - the conversation had been about not trading Nylander - Marner is a new wrinkle.

A couple of things wrong with that.

First, when was he shopping Nylander, when did he get get returns, and when did he decide he didn't like them? Remember that he had a full year to entertain offers for Nylander, but only one month (at most) for Marner. If he was still waiting for or looking at offers after July 1, it was already too late to shop Marner.

And if he didn't like the return for a better player on a better contract (admittedly for one year rather than two), would there have been any point in shopping Marner and looking for the same return?

I would have been perfectly happy if he had traded Marner for a decent return before his NMC kicked in, but I can see the reasoning behind not being rushed into a bad trade by the time constraint.

 

[Tak7]

First, when was he shopping Nylander, when did he get get returns, and when did he decide he didn't like them?

Last summer, as soon as he got on the job.

Remember that he had a full year to entertain offers for Nylander, but only one month (at most) for Marner. If he was still waiting for or looking at offers after July 1, it was already too late to shop Marner.

He needed 3 days to trade Tkachuk - a month was an eternity for him to at least gauge league-wide interest in Marner.

And if he didn't like the return for a better player on a better contract (admittedly for one year rather than two), would there have been any point in shopping Marner and looking for the same return?

Marner has better pedigree / reputation around the league - case in point: both the Blues & Sabres have submitted 'Behind the Scenes' footage from the NHL draft in recent times, where they use Marner as a comparable for high end upside for prospects they're eying

I would have been perfectly happy if he had traded Marner for a decent return before his NMC kicked in, but I can see the reasoning behind not being rushed into a bad trade by the time constraint.

Once again, they had a month. For a guy that made a decent trade for Matthew Tkachuk in 72 hours, this idea that he didn't have time when he actually had 4 weeks before the NMC kicked in, to at least see what the waters were like for Marner, is a failure to do the GM's job.

They were, and likely remain, more interested in not upsetting Marner / his camp, than they are in doing what's best for the Maple Leafs

 

[notDatsyuk]

I'm fine with changes, was fine with changes last year too, but pretending he has no flexibility is just not true.

My whole point about the second part of that is that the available cap doesn't mean that it will be spent well, the $20 million he spent last year didn't contribute the way you'd expect it to. The best player from that group was Domi who contributed 4 points in 7 games.

Once again, changing things and reallocating the cap is fine, but there is still flexibility now if they can't make changes, just spend the cap space better this year.

This isn't a new issue and we haven't brought in great contributors most years, but it isn't due to a lack of cap space.

The four best players in that series were Matthews (4 points in 5 games), Nylander (3 points in 4 games), and Domi and Bertuzzi (each 4 points in 7 games). If you want to just look at stats, you could also make a fair argument that Boosh was our best defenceman.

You could argue that the 20M cap space was somewhat better used this year, but the biggest problem in the playoffs was another 22M.

 

[notDatsyuk]

Last summer, as soon as he got on the job.


He needed 3 days to trade Tkachuk - a month was an eternity for him to at least gauge league-wide interest in Marner.



Marner has better pedigree / reputation around the league - case in point: both the Blues & Sabres have submitted 'Behind the Scenes' footage from the NHL draft in recent times, where they use Marner as a comparable for high end upside for prospects they're eying


Once again, they had a month. For a guy that made a decent trade for Matthew Tkachuk in 72 hours, this idea that he didn't have time when he actually had 4 weeks before the NMC kicked in, to at least see what the waters were like for Marner, is a failure to do the GM's job.

They were, and likely remain, more interested in not upsetting Marner / his camp, than they are in doing what's best for the Maple Leafs

You mean by June 2 he has offered Nylander, received all the possible offers he might expect, and rejected them all?

He had to trade Tkachuk - entirely different story. And if people are complaining about the return he got, all the more reason not to rush a trade for Marner.

I don't think Marner has a better reputation around the league - case in point is Marchand's comments about ignoring him, and even more Boston's general disregard for him on the ice. Even if his reputation was a bit better, his contract is much worse.

We'll see what happens over the next 14 months. Hopefully he's gone.

 

[notbias]

The four best players in that series were Matthews (4 points in 5 games), Nylander (3 points in 4 games), and Domi and Bertuzzi (each 4 points in 7 games). If you want to just look at stats, you could also make a fair argument that Boosh was our best defenceman.

You could argue that the 20M cap space was somewhat better used this year, but the biggest problem in the playoffs was another 22M.

If you want to argue that 4 pts in 7 games is a good performance when they were hyped as playoff performers, sure.

Boosh was probably the best acquisition of the bunch, he and Rielly tilted the play.

I am also not arguing that the returning players were better, just that the $20 million wasn't spent well.

You mean by June 2 he has offered Nylander, received all the possible offers he might expect, and rejected them all?

He had to trade Tkachuk - entirely different story. And if people are complaining about the return he got, all the more reason not to rush a trade for Marner.

I don't think Marner has a better reputation around the league - case in point is Marchand's comments about ignoring him, and even more Boston's general disregard for him on the ice. Even if his reputation was a bit better, his contract is much worse.

We'll see what happens over the next 14 months. Hopefully he's gone.

I for one am glad he isn't rushing a Marner trade, the Tkachuk trade (and the signings that followed) is one of the most crippling moves by a GM recently.

If he learned from his mistake, then great, I am happy it wasn't here and that he is continuing to grow.

 

[LeafSteel]

Little interest in this forum until the Draft.

Everyone posting whatever clues fits their narrative while crapping on others doing exactly the same thing with “you don’t know what’s going on”, as if anyone on either side of the Marner line knows more than the other.

It would laughable if it wasn’t so boring.

Trotting the same bunch back with the biggest change being behind the bench would be a complete joke, but that’s where we are right now.

I know what I’m hoping happens by the start of the season and I already know if they trot this roster back without significant changes my interest in this team will be the lowest in almost 50 years.

I’ve seen this crappy show before and this is the most unlikeable iteration of the team that I can remember, from the top down.

 

[Maple Leaf]

why did they hire him
what are his credentials
other than buddy of shanahan

 

[notDatsyuk]

If you want to argue that 4 pts in 7 games is a good performance when they were hyped as playoff performers, sure.

Boosh was probably the best acquisition of the bunch, he and Rielly tilted the play.

I am also not arguing that the returning players were better, just that the $20 million wasn't spent well.

Only Matty and Willy had better playoff performances.

The 20M may not have been well spent, but the portion to those three was better spent than the 22M for two other players.

 

[JT AM da real deal]

Where did you hear that?

A buddy of mine who scouts in da O .. there are a lot of factors involved which are still up in da air involving London .. and also with Mitch/Paul/Ferris .. like i said any deal involving Mitch will be very difficult to get done for a ton of reasons .. but CBJ are most likely team if something happens .. there is are also rumours of another TO player and another Jackets player which may make a deal even bigger .. i would put odds around 25% .. don't hold your breath

 

[Captain34]

why did they hire him
what are his credentials
other than buddy of shanahan

He has clearly shown an innate ability to build a Championship team during his 9 years in Calgary

 

[Tak7]

You mean by June 2 he has offered Nylander, received all the possible offers he might expect, and rejected them all?

That's what the reports suggest - not sure specifically about the timeline, but they definitely tangled Nylander out, didn't like the return, and weren't prepared to "lose the trade" so they decided against it.

They didn't pivot to Marner in trade talks, which is what they absolutely should have done.

He had to trade Tkachuk - entirely different story. And if people are complaining about the return he got, all the more reason not to rush a trade for Marner.

He had to trade Marner too - instead, he plays out the final year in a gongshow environment, and then walks for nothing. Fantastic asset management for a front office that lacks any ability of foresight.

No one complained about the return he got for Tkachuk at the time - 115-point Hart Trophy finalist & one of the more underrated Dmen in the league with really strong underlying numbers.

The issue became the contracts TRELIVING handed out, and the unexpectedly rapid decline in Huberdeau's play.

I don't think Marner has a better reputation around the league - case in point is Marchand's comments about ignoring him, and even more Boston's general disregard for him on the ice. Even if his reputation was a bit better, his contract is much worse.

He has a much better reputation in NHL front offices, which is all that matters when discussing trade scenarios. Being chirped on the ice only showcases how easily other teams feel they can de-stabilize him. Irrelevant when discussing trades

 

[notDatsyuk]

That's what the reports suggest - not sure specifically about the timeline, but they definitely tangled Nylander out, didn't like the return, and weren't prepared to "lose the trade" so they decided against it.

They didn't pivot to Marner in trade talks, which is what they absolutely should have done.


He had to trade Marner too - instead, he plays out the final year in a gongshow environment, and then walks for nothing. Fantastic asset management for a front office that lacks any ability of foresight.

No one complained about the return he got for Tkachuk at the time - 115-point Hart Trophy finalist & one of the more underrated Dmen in the league with really strong underlying numbers.

The issue became the contracts TRELIVING handed out, and the unexpectedly rapid decline in Huberdeau's play.


He has a much better reputation in NHL front offices, which is all that matters when discussing trade scenarios. Being chirped on the ice only showcases how easily other teams feel they can de-stabilize him. Irrelevant when discussing trades

So you don't know the timeline, but are sure it was a lot less than a month, despite the fact that he took 7 1/2 months before signing Nylander?

He didn't have to trade Marner - Marner didn't insist on being traded.

A player who completely disappears in the playoffs is "irrelevant when discussing trades"?

 

[Tak7]

So you don't know the timeline, but are sure it was less than a month, despite the fact that he took 7 1/2 months before signing Nylander?

Yes - because Treliving told us on live TV: the deal Nylander signed in January, was the exact deal the Nylander camp asked for in the summer. There was no negotiating, Lewis Gross & SPM dug their heels in early.

He didn't have to trade Marner - Marner didn't insist on being traded.

The two options were:

1. You trade him last summer, for something tangible
2. He walks for nothing next summer

I know which option a smart, forward thinking GM would / should have considered.

 

[Trapper]

Tre has just been the next in line of what has been a rollercoaster here.

The Leafs are always a day late and a dollar short. (Well not dollars short for the overpayment).
First we have senior management as we start the rebuild. Ok. Then, at a crucial time we hire a rookie GM.

We held on to Babcock too long. Should have been changed to start the season.
Then we held onto Keefe too long.

Then we held onto the core too long. Should have been changed before all the NMC kicked in.

Then we change GMs (hello Tre) when everyone needs new contracts again. You just walk in the door and have everyone becoming UFA. Nice.

So how is Tre doing 1st year. How can you even attach any grade to this right now.

 

[notDatsyuk]

Yes - because Treliving told us on live TV: the deal Nylander signed in January, was the exact deal the Nylander camp asked for in the summer. There was no negotiating, Lewis Gross & SPM dug their heels in early.


The two options were:

1. You trade him last summer, for something tangible
2. He walks for nothing next summer

I know which option a smart, forward thinking GM would / should have considered.

You're confusing two very different things. The fact that he ended up, seven months later, having to sign the same deal that was available in the summer doesn't mean he stopped trying to work out a trade in June. It actually means exactly the opposite - if he had decided in June that he wasn't going to get any better offers, he would have signed in June. The fact that he didn't probably means he was entertaining offers for at least a few more months.

The options for Marner were:

1 - trade him quickly in June and risk losing badly (even assuming Shanahan would allow it)
2 - keep him and hope he finally works out
3 - try to get him to waive his NMC
4 - try to work out a sign and trade
5 - let him walk and gain just the cap space, which isn't 'nothing'
6 - resign him

Just because you can only see two options doesn't mean that anyone else is that limited. I can happily admit that there may be more than the six I listed.

 

[GoonieFace]

Yes - because Treliving told us on live TV: the deal Nylander signed in January, was the exact deal the Nylander camp asked for in the summer. There was no negotiating, Lewis Gross & SPM dug their heels in early.


The two options were:

1. You trade him last summer, for something tangible
2. He walks for nothing next summer

I know which option a smart, forward thinking GM would / should have considered.

This is not rooted in reality.

Hey Shanny, thanks for hiring me, oh by the way I’m trading Marner today. This was never going to happen.

Tkachuk demanded to be traded to Florida, Marner has never demanded to be traded anywhere. Two different scenarios

 

[egd27]

One rumour I had heard was Mitch and Leafs 2024 1st rounder to Columbus for Werenski and Columbus' 2024 1st rounder .. to acquire a big fast puck moving D man to move pucks and play #1 PP .. also gets Leafs another top D as folk say draft is loaded for big D at top of 2024 draft .. i like Sam myself and would make him da cornerstone of our blue line for years to come

Seems unlikely that Waddell would make that move given his desire to turn CBJ into a fast, consistent team.