Bobby Hull legacy thread (see admin warning post #1)

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*Snip for relevancy

If you can find a link for the ratings of the 1st intermission, the go for it. I doubt they would want to release it. Like I said, they fired a popular analyst that people liked, that isn't going to help ratings.
So what you are saying here is that you've been stating, as fact over and over again, that the ratings have dropped for the first intermission is something that you just made up because it fits your perspective. That actually isn't a fact, its an unfounded assumption FYI.
 
So what you are saying here is that you've been stating, as fact over and over again, that the ratings have dropped for the first intermission is something that you just made up because it fits your perspective. That actually isn't a fact, its an unfounded assumption FYI.

I mentioned it already, if someone can find the ratings for the 1st intermission and compare them then I would like to see them myself. However, it is quite obvious they would not be as high. Cherry is a legendary hockey personality and it is replaced with just dry analysis on the Hot Stove. This is one of those things where it is obvious people aren't watching it like before. But, I would still like to see the ratings.
 
I mentioned it already, if someone can find the ratings for the 1st intermission and compare them then I would like to see them myself. However, it is quite obvious they would not be as high. Cherry is a legendary hockey personality and it is replaced with just dry analysis on the Hot Stove. This is one of those things where it is obvious people aren't watching it like before. But, I would still like to see the ratings.

Nothing like making a wild-assed claim as fact and then daring others to provide data to prove you wrong.

PEOPLE LOVE THE FIGHTING! Prove me wrong.

RATINGS ARE DOWN! Prove me wrong.

DON CHERRY TELLS IT LIKE IT IS AND MOST PEOPLE LOVE HIM! Prove me wrong.

FFS, Phil. You sure that you wouldn't prefer a blog to a discussion forum?
 
I mentioned it already, if someone can find the ratings for the 1st intermission and compare them then I would like to see them myself. However, it is quite obvious they would not be as high. Cherry is a legendary hockey personality and it is replaced with just dry analysis on the Hot Stove. This is one of those things where it is obvious people aren't watching it like before. But, I would still like to see the ratings.
So, just to reiterate, you've made an entirely baseless assumption based on your own bias and are now requiring others to prove it wrong?

That's not how discourse works. The burden of proof is on the person making the claim.
 
The talk is the injuries that come from fighting in juniors. It pales in comparison to injuries from high school football for instance, or College ball.


If you can find a link for the ratings of the 1st intermission, the go for it. I doubt they would want to release it. Like I said, they fired a popular analyst that people liked, that isn't going to help ratings.
You also said MMA and NFL before which have paid athletes. The high school and college ball talk is irrelevant anyhow though. First off, one being just as or more dangerous doesn't make the other acceptable. Secondly, football players typically get hurt during plays that are part of the game not a fist fight that doesn't really affect the outcome. I used to spend many hours posting and watching stuff on hockeyfights.com so I obviously love fighting. I got sick of watching teenagers fight many years ago though.
 
I mentioned it already, if someone can find the ratings for the 1st intermission and compare them then I would like to see them myself. However, it is quite obvious they would not be as high. Cherry is a legendary hockey personality and it is replaced with just dry analysis on the Hot Stove. This is one of those things where it is obvious people aren't watching it like before. But, I would still like to see the ratings.

I might comment here that it seems you are projecting what you feel (e.g. I like fighting) into "what we should feel".

The irony is that this thread started out with that same tone of people projecting what they felt as individuals into what everyone should feel.
 
Phil... This is really hard to read.

Anyone who says that Hull doesn't have a complicated legacy, (such as the article linked on the first page) is foolish.

You're right that you cannot ignore the contributions that Bobby had to the history and legacy of the NHL and Canadian hockey. He broke the "glass ceiling" for salaries and paved the way for much better men than him to be paid fairly for the money they brought into the game. His contract with the Jets is at the level of importance of the NHLPA being established. He was one of the biggest draws in the game, inspired millions of kids to curve their sticks, and was very important to Canadian hockey during the Cold War.

But you cannot separate that from his monstrously abusive behaviour. Forget about the Hitler comments. He hurt a lot of people, including his wives and children. If you need a clearer example of how destructive and abusive he was, his own daughter pursued a career as a lawyer in domestic abuse because of the violence she witnessed first hand by Bobby against her mother.

He was a dangerous, violent man who had victims. Victims he was unrepentant towards. He beat his first wife bloody with a steel headed shoe and nearly threw her off of a balcony. He beat all his wives to the point law enforcement needed to get involved. He abused his children to the point that none of them wanted anything to do with him. Brett is a stronger man than most to allow a man like Bobby back into his life.

Imagine what it's like to be a victim of domestic abuse, experiencing the trauma that you go through every day of your life because of the impact of a violent abuser, and then seeing a man who abused those who trusted him publicly celebrated and cheered for? What sort of message does that send people?

This issue is bigger than hockey and signing autographs for fans.

Bobby can be remembered and acknowledged for the positives his legacy brought to the game, but in no world should he be celebrated as some sort of hero.

@MXD

Here is one. Bolded and underlined parts imply how "we" should feel.

When you praise Nazis, deride the growth of the African American population (on both counts to which he daughter said sounded just like him), and beat your spouses (multiple!) then say your only regret is not drinking more you don’t deserve praise. You deserve scorn. His own son wanted nothing to do with him. He was a putrid man and the world’s better without him. But he shot a puck really well so good for him.

@MXD

Here is another.

Please provide specific quotes of people doing so in the first page.

Thought I would score some points by critiquing Big Phil. Guess not.
 
@MXD

Here is one. Bolded and underlined parts imply how "we" should feel.



@MXD

Here is another.



Thought I would score some points by critiquing Big Phil. Guess not.
First : It's about Hull's legacy, not about anyone should feel about it. And this thread is pretty much evidence that Hull's legacy is complicated.

Second : The user is giving his opinion, which is definitely allowed on a hockey message board.

Third : You and Big Phil can simultaneously be writing absolutely stupid shit on a similar topic despite not having the exact same take.

So... I'll ask again : Who's telling anyone how we should feel?
 
Third : You and Big Phil can simultaneously be writing absolutely stupid shit on a similar topic despite not having the exact same take.

There that sense of online superiority that this thread has been missing for a few pages. Thought some progress had been made but apparently not.

So... I'll ask again : Who's telling anyone how we should feel?

Anyone who says that Hull doesn't have a complicated legacy, (such as the article linked on the first page) is foolish.

How isn't this telling you how you need to feel?*


* fingers crossed that I haven't spouted "some absolutely stupid shit" again
 
Anyone who says that Hull doesn't have a complicated legacy, (such as the article linked on the first page) is foolish.
I'll repeat : This thread is pretty much evidence that Hull's legacy is complicated. And it's only one piece of evidence.

I mean, you may come to the conclusion that Hull doesn't have a complicated legacy. That wouldn't really be a statement of opinion though. That would be a statement of mistake on facts. There's a reason why the reactions to Gordie Howe and Jean Beliveau deaths were starkly different to Bobby Hull's.
 
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The Don Cherry talk kind of proves the point that everyone would have loved to talk about Hull's life off the ice, if his life off the ice was better. There'd be no demands to "just talk about the game".

People who love Cherry have mentioned his charitable work numerous times, and that will no doubt be a part of the discussion of his legacy. I'm quite confident that the same people moaning about Hull's off-ice issues being discussed at all, will be happy to discuss the great things Cherry did outside of hockey when he passes away.
 

"In the week leading up to Don’s departure on Remembrance Day, the show sat at spot 29, with an average viewership of 1,027,000. In the two weeks following his dismissal, this number fell below top 30 levels, which bottomed out around 908,000 and 1,019,000 average viewers, respectively."

Link

I would say the data is inconclusive. Kind of weird that HNIC doesn't release ratings more regularly though. Not sure if that's a Canada thing or unique to the channel/program itself.
 
This thread is a f***ing nightmare

arrested-development-risky.gif
 
Bobby Hull was a fantastic player and one of the greatest goalscorers of all time.

I don't care about the other stuff or 40 year later character assassination stuff. its irrelevant.

You should check out the main board (I know, actually a compliment about the main board) that specifically says "stick to hockey" and it actually does. Much more pleasant conversation for sure.
 
Nothing like making a wild-assed claim as fact and then daring others to provide data to prove you wrong.

PEOPLE LOVE THE FIGHTING! Prove me wrong.

RATINGS ARE DOWN! Prove me wrong.

DON CHERRY TELLS IT LIKE IT IS AND MOST PEOPLE LOVE HIM! Prove me wrong.

FFS, Phil. You sure that you wouldn't prefer a blog to a discussion forum?
So, just to reiterate, you've made an entirely baseless assumption based on your own bias and are now requiring others to prove it wrong?

That's not how discourse works. The burden of proof is on the person making the claim.

If you can find the ratings from the 1st intermission from Cherry's days as recently as 2019 and the ratings of the 1st intermission today, then please do. I don't know where to find them. I do remember the number 3 million being an often regular number that floated around of the number of people that would tune into Coach's Corner on a weekly basis. You guys aren't fools, right? You know darn well people bypass the 1st intermission in droves and didn't back when there was Coach's Corner. You don't need me to spoonfeed that to you, that should be obvious.

Remember, Don Cherry was rated 7th most "Greatest Canadian" back in 2005. Do you remember that? Even ahead of Wayne Gretzky. Take that list for what it is, but even the CBC had to acknowledge him. So yes, Cherry had some enemies, but he had a ton of fans. A lot.

By the way Bear, I am sure you can do this for me, I left you a video of fan reaction - in a junior hockey game - reacting to a line brawl in 2019. You claim you "couldn't" open it. Okay, well what is stopping you from doing a bit of leg work yourself? Why not find a video that shows just how unpopular fighting has become? I showed my side why don't you show yours?

I'll wait.:popcorn:

You also said MMA and NFL before which have paid athletes. The high school and college ball talk is irrelevant anyhow though. First off, one being just as or more dangerous doesn't make the other acceptable. Secondly, football players typically get hurt during plays that are part of the game not a fist fight that doesn't really affect the outcome. I used to spend many hours posting and watching stuff on hockeyfights.com so I obviously love fighting. I got sick of watching teenagers fight many years ago though.

Great. You don't have to like it.

I might comment here that it seems you are projecting what you feel (e.g. I like fighting) into "what we should feel".

The irony is that this thread started out with that same tone of people projecting what they felt as individuals into what everyone should feel.

People can feel how they wish. My issue is this fabricated idea that the fans still don't like fighting like they used to. Bear of Bad News was smart enough to not even answer it other than vaguely. It is because all you have to do is attend a hockey game to see the fans still like that part of the game. Period. It doesn't mean a person can't like it, it is just defending the position I have that solely going to a game when a fight breaks out shows you people still like it. It is.........................a weird thing to argue, especially with what ought to be some knowledgeable fans on here.
 
Phil, if you’re waiting for me, you’ll be waiting awhile. I’ll pull sources for 98% of the people here, and I’ve specifically told you why I don’t waste my time doing your homework.

In other words, you can't counter the argument. At least don't be cowardly about it.

This thread has gotten strange. Main board-level strange. And that is unusual for the HOH board.

Not seeing that Don Cherry was popular is like not being able to see Gretzky was a good passer. Cherry was only all over television commercials in the 1980s, 1990s, 2000s and 2010s. People that hated Grapes still knew he was popular. I don't even know why this is an argument.

Then the fighting thing, oh brother. Usually you are a pretty good poster here Bear. But what more do you want me to tell you that fighting is still popular in the game? It is just such a bizarre thing for a normally sensible poster to be able to see himself.
 
....I repeat

Yes. Both you and Bear stated that you go to a lot of hockey games and you both were dumbfounded when I told you about the modern reactions (basically the same as other decades) fans have to fights.

Like I said..................this is a really weird thread.
 
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