Blues Trade Proposals 2023-2024

[PeoriaBlues309]

I have no beef with extending Buch at around $8-9 mil per.

The Cap is rising, and we’ll have to push out a decent amount of money in the next two years to make room for all the young kids on ELC’s. We SHOULD have the money for it, and by the time it happens, we should be competing again.

 

[Spektre]

The Conn Smythe winner for Vegas was 32 and Stone was easily one of their top 5 most important players at age 30. Stamkos has been a very good contributor for Tampa at $8.5M in his age 30-32 seasons. He played a big role in two trips to the Final (and 1 Cup). Ovi, Oshie and Backstrom were 32, 31, and 30 for their Cup win. Pavelski played a huge role in the Stars runs to the Final (2020) and Conference Final (2023) at ages 35 and 38. Benn was a big part of their team this year at 33. The Bruins have been one of the league's best teams over the last 5 years with Marchand and Bergeron both above 30 the whole time.

You absolutely need a chunk of good forwards in their 20s to build a winner, but 30 isn't some magical cutoff where important players can't contribute to a winner anymore. And that is especially true for players who don't rely on speed and play a complete 200 ft game.


That is absolutely correct in 2023, when Buch is 28 with 2 years left on his deal. If he was 30 years old right now and we were talking about a deal starting this season, then the first couple years of that deal would be getting burned. But we're not. The plan at the moment is overwhelmingly to be out of the "retool" phase for the 2025/26 season when Buch is 30 and in year 1 of his next contract.

Last year was year 1 of a retool. That wasn't the expectation, but it quickly became the reality and our trade deadline reflected that reality. We got a top 10 pick and accumulated several more high value futures assets. This will be year 2. 2024/25 will be year 3.

The first year of Buch's next deal will be year 4 since the kickoff of the retool. Neighbours will be 23. Dean and Bolduc will be 22. Snuggy will be 21 and Dvorsky will be 20. All but Neighbours will still be on their ELCs. I think that Snuggy and Dvorsky will both be in their 2nd NHL season. Even if one/both are NHL rookies, both should have enough pro experience that meaningful contributions should be an expectation. Thomas and Kyrou will be 26 and 27, which is exactly the age you want your core to be.

2025/26 absolutely shouldn't be viewed as a retool year. Army has more work to do than simply waiting for those prospects to arrive, but any conversation about Buch's potential future here should be under the lens of a team that is exiting a retool when an extension would kick in. You may disagree about the decision to retool vs rebuild, but the team at the moment has clearly chosen a retool and the roster is strong enough that I don't expect a full rebuild.

You may not expect a rebuild and that’s reasonable, but that’s always a fluid situation.

There’s no need in listing players over 30 that had an influence on winning the Cup. Again, I never said they can’t.

I’m hoping the Blues actually tank next year and are the worst team in the league. I think there’s probably 0% of that happening. If it did, or even if they’re in the bottom 10 again, I think it helps the organization reach legitimate Cup contender status the quickest.

I don’t mind having players signed into their 30’s. Signing them at 30 for 9-10 million per season should be rare and incredibly star power players. Buch is not that guy, to me.

I’m with you on the future of the forwards. It requires a complete team to be relevant, we all know that. You have left out the D and G.

2025-26

Faulk 33
Krug 34
Parayko 32
Leddy 34

Binnington 32

If you only look at their ages it’s not the end of the world. There are plenty of D that can make a major difference for a Cup contender at those ages. If you look at the players, how they played last year, try to forecast how they will play after 2 more years, it’s not pretty.

They could all have a more solid season next year than this past one. I’m not holding my breath, but it’s possible. Do you or anyone think there’s any chance those 5 players are better after playing 2 more seasons? I would say that’s next to impossible.

It’s impossible to predict the roster from year to year let alone 3 years from now. All of them, including Binnington, have NTC with different details. I don’t think all of them will be here, but anything is possible.

As is, that D is not what you want on a serious team in 25-26. What’s your fix for that? It’s next to impossible to build a great D exclusively through free agency. You also have to have the most important player on the ice, the goalie. Is Binnington going to be able to be a Cup contending goalie after 2 more years? I doubt it.

Alternate scenario:

The Blues are a bottom 10 ,or better still, a bottom 5 team next year. It forces Armstrong to trade who he can, Buchnevich, Parayko, Saad, Vrana, Leddy, Kapanen, & maybe Faulk. At least those are candidates. Some players probably can’t be traded like Schenn and Krug.

The Blues have another top 10 pick and stock up on futures.

Prospects don’t magically win Cups either but I have a high confidence level in the Blues scouting department. Otherwise what’s the alternative?? What is your plan for the D and G for 25-26?

 

[Bye Bye Blueston]

You may not expect a rebuild and that’s reasonable, but that’s always a fluid situation.

There’s no need in listing players over 30 that had an influence on winning the Cup. Again, I never said they can’t.

I’m hoping the Blues actually tank next year and are the worst team in the league. I think there’s probably 0% of that happening. If it did, or even if they’re in the bottom 10 again, I think it helps the organization reach legitimate Cup contender status the quickest.

I don’t mind having players signed into their 30’s. Signing them at 30 for 9-10 million per season should be rare and incredibly star power players. Buch is not that guy, to me.

I’m with you on the future of the forwards. It requires a complete team to be relevant, we all know that. You have left out the D and G.

2025-26

Faulk 33
Krug 34
Parayko 32
Leddy 34

Binnington 32

If you only look at their ages it’s not the end of the world. There are plenty of D that can make a major difference for a Cup contender at those ages. If you look at the players, how they played last year, try to forecast how they will play after 2 more years, it’s not pretty.

They could all have a more solid season next year than this past one. I’m not holding my breath, but it’s possible. Do you or anyone think there’s any chance those 5 players are better after playing 2 more seasons? I would say that’s next to impossible.

It’s impossible to predict the roster from year to year let alone 3 years from now. All of them, including Binnington, have NTC with different details. I don’t think all of them will be here, but anything is possible.

As is, that D is not what you want on a serious team in 25-26. What’s your fix for that? It’s next to impossible to build a great D exclusively through free agency. You also have to have the most important player on the ice, the goalie. Is Binnington going to be able to be a Cup contending goalie after 2 more years? I doubt it.

Alternate scenario:

The Blues are a bottom 10 ,or better still, a bottom 5 team next year. It forces Armstrong to trade who he can, Buchnevich, Parayko, Saad, Vrana, Leddy, Kapanen, & maybe Faulk. At least those are candidates. Some players probably can’t be traded like Schenn and Krug.

The Blues have another top 10 pick and stock up on futures.

Prospects don’t magically win Cups either but I have a high confidence level in the Blues scouting department. Otherwise what’s the alternative?? What is your plan for the D and G for 25-26?

You raise a good point. But I would go further. I think we can get back to decent team who competes for playoff spot quic but our true contending window is ways out.

If we assume that 4 or 5 out of our top 6 forward prospects hit their reasonable expectations we will have a bunch of exciting young forwards in 2-3 years. Many of them will be ready to contribute in nhl at that point. But how many of them will be impact players in 2 years? 1 or 2 if we are lucky. But Schenn and Saad and vrana and Hayes and kap will all either be lesser players or gone within 3 years.

so even though our young forward core will look enticing, chances are that our forwards won’t be as good in 2 years as today. That could take maybe 4 years until we have forward group that is Cup caliber.

but what about our d? Is there a reasonable scenario where we have contending d in 2 years? Even if we assume last year was fluke and with better coaching we can be okay, it still looks like a potential playoff d and not Cup contending d. Especially as they age. And none of our prospects are remotely likely to be top pairing caliber in 2 years. perhaps in 4, but that would be major success story.

this is why I think ultimately our best path is going to be to deal buchy (and if we can get value, Parayko). Both will be past their peak by the time we are likely ready to contend. Neither has to be moved this summer, but if choice is to give buchy the Thomas/Kyrou contract (or more) at 30 or deal him for something like 1st, 2nd, quality d prospect (someone like morrow), and guy like kap or Blais, I make the trade even though it will make us worse in short run.

 

[Brian39]

I don’t mind having players signed into their 30’s. Signing them at 30 for 9-10 million per season should be rare and incredibly star power players. Buch is not that guy, to me.

I think 9 is the ceiling, not the floor for a guy like him and at the end of the day it is term that's key. $9Mx5 is a hell of a lot different than $9Mx8. And our cap structure and likely trajectory by 2025/26 means that we might be much better served eating a high AAV for less term than offering long term to bring down AAV.

I’m with you on the future of the forwards. It requires a complete team to be relevant, we all know that. You have left out the D and G.

2025-26

Faulk 33
Krug 34
Parayko 32
Leddy 34

Binnington 32

...

As is, that D is not what you want on a serious team in 25-26. What’s your fix for that? It’s next to impossible to build a great D exclusively through free agency. You also have to have the most important player on the ice, the goalie. Is Binnington going to be able to be a Cup contending goalie after 2 more years? I doubt it.

I firmly believe that any retool/rebuild is contingent on getting Krug off the roster. Realistically, I think it is likely that 2 of those D will/should be gone by 2025/26. But the timeline for that happening impacts the 'how' that happens.

Most of the contracts get much easier to move in the summer of 2025 than they are right now. Krug's NTC turns into a 15 team no-trade list and his real salary drops from $8.5M to $6.5M. Faulk's NTC does the same thing and his salary after this season is $4.5M per year. Leddy's NTC becomes a 16 team trade list and the salary is $3M for 2025/26. Along with the cap being $8M or so higher than it is now and getting out of them should be much easier to accomplish than it was this summer.

In net, we'll see who is the starter by then. How much of a raise Hofer earns (or what caliber goalie we need to bring in) will determine the urgency of moving Binner. If Binner is still the #1 guy, then his contract isn't an issue. If Hofer wins the job and earns a big raise, then Binner probably needs to go.

The blue line is where Army has to do the bulk of his work for the medium-long term. it is extremely difficult to predict what guys shake loose in the next couple years, but we need to be in the conversation anytime a quality D man under 28 is potentially on the market. I'm completely fine trading any non Snuggy/Dvorsky prospect, any non-1st round pick, and/or any roster player not in our future plans for young or youngish LD with term.

Alternate scenario:

The Blues are a bottom 10 ,or better still, a bottom 5 team next year. It forces Armstrong to trade who he can, Buchnevich, Parayko, Saad, Vrana, Leddy, Kapanen, & maybe Faulk. At least those are candidates. Some players probably can’t be traded like Schenn and Krug.

The Blues have another top 10 pick and stock up on futures.

Prospects don’t magically win Cups either but I have a high confidence level in the Blues scouting department. Otherwise what’s the alternative?? What is your plan for the D and G for 25-26?

If we are bottom 5-10 this year, I'm still not actively shopping Buch, Parayko, or Faulk. I still think that all 3 can be large contributors in the medium term. If a team blows me away then so be it. But I'd be more content simply selling Vrana, Kap, Scandella, and/or Blais as rentals and then circle back about the more core pieces over the summer.

Army structured the roster to move on from this veteran core in the summer of 2025. It's when essentially all of the NTCs relax and the salaries drop to make guys easier to move. I think you maximize your return (or minimize the cost to move them) that summer. And if we are bottom 5-10 again with them and entering a full rebuild, then what is the downside to keeping them?

All in all, my tentative 'core' remaining for 2025/26 from the current roster is Thomas, Kyrou, Buch, Parayko, and Faulk. Those are the 5 guys that I can see being legit contributors in 2025/26 and 2026/27. I think Schenn will still be here by then due to his contract and my hope is that he can contribute the way Steen did at the end (great bottom 6 guy but not worth the AAV). That isn't to say are all untouchable and that isn't to say that Parayko/Faulk are the #1 and #2. But I think all those guys (minus Schenn) can be exactly the type of veteran core in the top 6/4 along with a wave of young talent. Who knows what goalies will be good by then.

Faulk's deal is up after 2027 and I doubt he is in the plans beyond that. Let's say that we gave Buch $9M. By 2027/28, we're talking about Thomas, Kyrou, Buch, Parayko and Schenn taking up $38.25M of a cap that should be above $100M. Schenn is entering the final year of his deal and might even be on LTIR. If you can shed that deal (or even retain some), then you are talking about $32M-$34M for Thomas/Kyrou/Buch/Parayko with $60M+ to pay the next wave of young talent. Dvorsky will be coming off his ELC with no arbitration rights, any 2024 pick will either be coming off his ELC w/o arbitration rights or in the last year of his ELC, and Snuggy will be coming off his ELC unless we burn a year after his NCAA season this year.

 

[Stupendous Yappi]

I agree with the priority of moving Krug, but I think the ship has sailed on doing that for another season.

MAYBE there is a scenario where he can be moved at the deadline, but moving salary to someone else is expensive then.

If you asked Armstrong right now, I think he'd agree with most of us here that Krug needs to be moved, that its worth it to add some enticements, and then he'd tell us that he's running with this team for this season and hoping Krug recovers some trade value through his play (but that if he doesn't, then slicing another year off the remaining contract will help make it more feasible to find a deal at the end of the year).

The separate piece of this is the acquisition of a top pairing LHD. I don't think anyone sees an internal solution there yet. If an opportunity to acquire that player presents itself, Krug may get more value added to him with more urgency to move him sooner.

 

[Linkens Mastery]

Just move Kyrou. Why would we move money off the defense for a defenseman when we can just trade one of our top three point producers? He's absolutely terrible anyways.

 

[Reality Czech]

Not for nothing, but the Blues have generally avoided using Schenn in defensive situations and on the PK. Most of his defensive usage has occurred when we were out of other options.

He was our 4th most used center and 7th most-used forward on the PK last year (in terms of total minutes). His 44 seconds a night on the PK was 9th among forwards and that TOI would have been lower had we not traded two of the 3 centers used ahead of him. In 2021/22 when we had a much more healthy/stable group of forwards, Schenn played 29 seconds a night on the PK, which was 10th among Blues forwards. His total PK minutes was 8th, with his 30 minutes being less than half the minutes of forward #7.

Schenn is appropriately well down the depth chart on our PK.

I agree with your overall point that Schenn is given more defensive responsibility and assignments than Kyrou, but he isn't getting heavy defensive usage and he got brutal results in the modest defensive responsibility he had.

Never said Schenn was great defensively, but at least I can imagine him playing PK. Kyrou would be the last, or second to last guy they would pick for any kind of defensive usage. I think the fact that ROR had horrible defensive metrics while he was here last year kind of proves that these advanced stats don't define a player. There are so many other factors involved.

 

[joe galiba]

Never said Schenn was great defensively, but at least I can imagine him playing PK. Kyrou would be the last, or second to last guy they would pick for any kind of defensive usage. I think the fact that ROR had horrible defensive metrics while he was here last year kind of proves that these advanced stats don't define a player. There are so many other factors involved.

I disagree with this, I think Kyrou should be on the PK
he blocks shots at a better rate then players like Thomas, Steen and Buch
he is both quick and fast, plus has a good stick - exactly what you want on a PK
plus the work rate used on the PK would be something that would likely eventually translate to other parts of his game

 

[Reality Czech]

I disagree with this, I think Kyrou should be on the PK
he blocks shots at a better rate then players like Thomas, Steen and Buch
he is both quick and fast, plus has a good stick - exactly what you want on a PK
plus the work rate used on the PK would be something that would likely eventually translate to other parts of his game

I'm not against it, but one also needs good defensive instincts to PK and Kyrou doesn't really have that. I wouldn't use block shot rate as a measure of a players defensive abilities, and teams generally don't like their top scorers blocking a bunch of shots. Sanford had 18 more blocks than ROR had a couple of years ago, and no one would accuse him of being better on defense.

But hey, if PKing will lead to a more motivated, harder working Kyrou then I'm not against trying it.

 

[Thallis]

I'm not against it, but one also needs good defensive instincts to PK and Kyrou doesn't really have that. I wouldn't use block shot rate as a measure of a players defensive abilities, and teams generally don't like their top scorers blocking a bunch of shots. Sanford had 18 more blocks than ROR had a couple of years ago, and no one would accuse him of being better on defense.

But hey, if PKing will lead to a more motivated, harder working Kyrou then I'm not against trying it.

I think it's just more likely for wingers to be in position to block shots than centers since centers are typically a lot lower in the zone. Wingers are generally at the top of the circles and the ones who are supposed to challenge the shot. Granted, there's a big benefit in having a guy like Kyrou on the PK so you can burn the now typical 4 forward PP units when you do get to counter attack assuming we'd use a diamond.

 

[Reality Czech]

I think it's just more likely for wingers to be in position to block shots than centers since centers are typically a lot lower in the zone. Wingers are generally at the top of the circles and the ones who are supposed to challenge the shot. Granted, there's a big benefit in having a guy like Kyrou on the PK so you can burn the now typical 4 forward PP units when you do get to counter attack assuming we'd use a diamond.

Good points. I could go either way with Kyrou on the PK. On one hand, it's good when your top players can play in all situations but on the other, there are plenty of top line scorers who pretty much never play PK their whole careers. No one expects guys like Kane, Ovechkin, etc. to play PK, so why should we expect Kyrou to do so? The list of top scoring wingers who PK regularly is a lot shorter than those who don't.

 

[Thallis]

Good points. I could go either way with Kyrou on the PK. On one hand, it's good when your top players can play in all situations but on the other, there are plenty of top line scorers who pretty much never play PK their whole careers. No one expects guys like Kane, Ovechkin, etc. to play PK, so why should we expect Kyrou to do so? The list of top scoring wingers who PK regularly is a lot shorter than those who don't.

I wouldn't expect Kyrou to, but it'd be something interesting to try since basically every team in the league is using the 1-3-1 with 4 forwards now. Kyrou's more of a burner than the guys you mentioned, so there's something that could be gained by trying to score PK goals on the breakaway instead of just accepting a mediocre PK with the guys we have.

 

[Brian39]

I think Kyrou has much bigger issues picking up his man through the neutral zone (or entering our own zone) than he does at keeping up his assignment once the other team has established their offense in the zone. Most of his "what the hell are you doing there" moments come during or in the chaos that follows a rush chance. PK is pretty much all established zone time and not rush chances, so that specific deficiency doesn't worry me.

With that said, his biggest defensive strength is using his speed to strip a surprised forward of the puck and that also doesn't apply much to the PK. I wouldn't hate trying him out on the 3rd PK unit.

 

[Xerloris]

I'm not against it, but one also needs good defensive instincts to PK and Kyrou doesn't really have that. I wouldn't use block shot rate as a measure of a players defensive abilities, and teams generally don't like their top scorers blocking a bunch of shots. Sanford had 18 more blocks than ROR had a couple of years ago, and no one would accuse him of being better on defense.

But hey, if PKing will lead to a more motivated, harder working Kyrou then I'm not against trying it.

I think it's stupid to put your higher scorer and most dynamic player on the PK where feet and ankles are known to get broken all the f***ing time. If Kyrou breaks an ankle it could kill his speed which is one of his best weapons.

 

[Stupendous Yappi]

I think it's stupid to put your higher scorer and most dynamic player on the PK where feet and ankles are known to get broken all the f***ing time. If Kyrou breaks an ankle it could kill his speed which is one of his best weapons.

You trade a small risk of injury (which also happens just as much on the PP in front of the net) for the threat of Kyrou on short handed breakaways.

It’s an interesting notion to put him on the PK. I miss the years when the Blues seemed to have the best PK in the league most of the time. A team full of guys willing to lock down a PK and take the abuse needed for success is a team that’s easy to root for.

 

[stl76]

If we want speed on the PK for the chance of a breakaway without risking one of our best offensive players, Toropchenko seems like a better option thank Kyrou IMO.

 

[BlueDream]

You trade a small risk of injury (which also happens just as much on the PP in front of the net) for the threat of Kyrou on short handed breakaways.

It’s an interesting notion to put him on the PK. I miss the years when the Blues seemed to have the best PK in the league most of the time. A team full of guys willing to lock down a PK and take the abuse needed for success is a team that’s easy to root for.

Ironic since Kyrou is not that player.

 

[Stupendous Yappi]

Ironic since Kyrou is not that player.

What’s ironic? I mentioned that I miss that time. None of the guys who were responsible for that are still on the team.

 

[Bye Bye Blueston]

What’s ironic? I mentioned that I miss that time. None of the guys who were responsible for that are still on the team.

I miss Steen. Hopefully Steen can create future Steens with our European prospects.

 

[Davimir Tarablad]

I miss Steen. Hopefully Steen can create future Steens with our European prospects.

A Steen powered factory?

 

[LogosBlue]

I'm ready to get roasted for this lol. I see our offensive prospect pool as really strong. I don't believe we are going to make the playoffs this year and even if we do, it'll just be a showing and nothing else. I'm looking forward to strengthening our future rebuild and one of our weak points is LD

How about a trade that looks something like this:

Stl: Jordan Kyrou
Marco Scandella

Cbj: Dention Mateychuk
2024 1st
2025 2nd

Any takers?

 

[Bye Bye Blueston]

I'm ready to get roasted for this lol. I see our offensive prospect pool as really strong. I don't believe we are going to make the playoffs this year and even if we do, it'll just be a showing and nothing else. I'm looking forward to strengthening our future rebuild and one of our weak points is LD

How about a trade that looks something like this:

Stl: Jordan Kyrou
Marco Scandella

Cbj: Dention Mateychuk
2024 1st
2025 2nd

Any takers?

Trading Kyrou for a decent not great prospect seems like wrong direction. If we are dealing him I want someone like Luke hughes.

 

[LogosBlue]

I don't think he would fetch Luke Hughes. I considered him as a potential swap but i don't think The Devils do that.

 

[Linkens Mastery]

I'm ready to get roasted for this lol. I see our offensive prospect pool as really strong. I don't believe we are going to make the playoffs this year and even if we do, it'll just be a showing and nothing else. I'm looking forward to strengthening our future rebuild and one of our weak points is LD

How about a trade that looks something like this:

Stl: Jordan Kyrou
Marco Scandella

Cbj: Dention Mateychuk
2024 1st
2025 2nd

Any takers?

So we're trading Kyrou for another Krug we can cry about being a midget. Also see zero reason for Columbus to grab another top forward when they have Laine and Johnny making significantly more when their need is a centerman.

 

[Bye Bye Blueston]

So we're trading Kyrou for another Krug we can cry about being a midget. Also see zero reason for Columbus to grab another top forward when they have Laine and Johnny making significantly more when their need is a centerman.

Yeah, and how does cbj make cap work? value favors Columbus but this trade makes no sense for either team.