HobeyBroten
Registered User
Noted.
Maybe different, but this kind of feels like a Bruce 2.0 situation. Very successful where he has been, but maybe when he gets here, he starts the tailspin?
Management Bill Guerin
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Maybe different, but this kind of feels like a Bruce 2.0 situation. Very successful where he has been, but maybe when he gets here, he starts the tailspin?
- Dec 10, 2012
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Well just off the bat, Dean hasn't won a single playoff series as a head coach in either the AHL or NHL, Bruce has
He didn’t win a series with us and he had much more complete teams. In fact, he had a 20% win rate (2-8-0) in the playoffs with us. Dean’s is higher
- Dec 10, 2012
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He didn’t win a series with us and he had much more complete teams. In fact, he had a 20% win rate (2-8-0) in the playoffs with us. Dean’s is higher
"Much more complete teams" feels like a cop-out statement based on nothing. Boudreau's top scorers were Mikael Granlund and what was left of Eric Staal. By the time he finished his third season here his top scorer was Parise with 61 points. You could almost make the case that his teams had more depth, but I'm not even sure that's true either considering Dean had the good version of the GREEF line.
Dean has had Kaprizov and Fiala as his top two fowards at points. Bruce could only dream of having those weapons. Then he got Boldy to match with Fiala. His first full season here as a head coach the Wild still had Suter. His second year as a head coach the Wild had the best roster they've ever iced. He still lost in the first round. Four times.
Boudreau had:
- a 1-2-3 combo of centers in Staal-Koivu-Coyle, all had over 51% faceoffs
-arguably a top 5 pairing in Suter-Spurgeon
-Dumba back when he put up 50 points
-Granlund setting career highs
-Zucker scoring 30+
Dean set team records with Kaprizov/Fiala, a vastly deteriorated Suter, Dumba being a shell of the player he used to be, and some make shift centers that used to be bottom 6 wingers (Hartman/Gaudreau).
Maybe we could talk about how Dean went 35-16-5 with Rask at 1C too. That’s fun.
- Dec 10, 2012
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Dumba put up 50 points once, not like it was a consistent thing, and we still have people clamoring for Dumba now because of how great they think he was for Evason's defense
Granlund setting career highs was 67 and 69 points. Ryan Hartman had 65 points in 2021-22 and he was fourth on the team in scoring lol. Granlund was 1st/2nd.
Zucker scoring 30+ one year is probably offset by the aforementioned Hartman scoring 30+ and Kaprizov scoring almost 50 but who's to say?
Evason has had a significantly better offense to work with in his time here. Boudreau had a better defense. There's no reason to think Boudreau had so much more to work with than Dean overall.
I think Bruce/Dean are less comparable than Guerin is to Fletcher over the last 3 years compared to Fletcher's last 3 years here. Questionable cap-management, refusal to shake up the core just deciding which players leave, overextending players/trade protection because of the cap. I guess Guerin has an advantage that he hasn't thrown away as much meaningful draft capital and didn't give a goalie over a half-decade extension over a 40 game sample size, but he also didn't do much of the building aspect of this team and the Foligno extension is worse than anything Fletcher did when it comes to skaters. Can't even ice a body with the cap savings this year from the buy-outs vs. having those 2 on the team and one is 2nd in TOI on the best team in our division, meanwhile we've been icing 2 AHL pairings for most of the year on defense.
We just went through a stretch with a rookie as our only top 4 quality RD. That makes perfect sense to want Dumba given the circumstances. But he’s gone because we couldn’t afford him. Another thing that Dean has to deal with… a deterioration of the roster due to dead cap/GM decisions.
Boudreau had a 40+ goal scorer at center. Dean somehow turned Hartman, a career 3rd liner, into a 30+ goal scorer. And before you go and sing Kaprizov’s praises and nip at Hartman, Rask proved that you can’t just plug and play someone between those two and have them produce. Shall we talk about how the best centers Dean has received from a GM have been Eriksson Ek and then (probably) a rookie Marco Rossi this season? He’s had to deal with Rask, Hartman, Gaudreau in the top 6. Last year, when Hartman was injured to start the year he had to play Sam Steel between Kap and Zucc lol. I seriously inquire those to think logically about this. Teams win with quality centers. 1C, 2C and 1D are the most important skaters. Boudreau had all three (Staal, Koivu, Suter). Anyone care to argue that Dean has had all three?? He’s got a 2C in Eriksson Ek. No 1D. He may finally have a 1C in Rossi, but that is a developing situation.
I don’t buy that Dean has better offensive players to work with. Yes, Kaprizov is better than every forward on Bruce’s best teams here. When you compare the middle 6 currently to Boudreau’s, is it even close? Johansson sucks. Foligno sucks. Gaudreau - useful, sucks offensively. Boldy has one season that is pretty close to the type of seasons that Coyle, Nino, AND Zucker had. Eriksson Ek - very similar today production to Koivu.
The point is, I don’t think Dean’s issue is coaching. He’s a darn good coach. The players he’s been given at the super important positions are just not up to par.
- Dec 10, 2012
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I stopped reading here. You're being incredibly disingenuous. Dean didn't "somehow" squeeze every last bit of coaching prowess out of himself to turn Hartman into a 30 goal scorer. It was Kaprizov. Kaprizov turned Hartman into a 30 goal scorer, and Boudreau never had any one remotely close to Kaprizov to coach. Dean's been given a much better offense up until this season. Oh and look where he is this season without that offense.
That’s simply amazing. Almost like I knew you were going to do that… way to miss out on the very next sentence:
- Dec 10, 2012
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You knew you were being disingenuous?
Maybe Hartman's just a better player than Rask? If Rask had a shot next to Kaprizov and under Dean, and Hartman had a shot next to Kaprizov and under Dean, and Rask sucked and Hartman was a 30 goal scorer, isn't that further proof that Dean had much better offensive tools in place than Boudreau did?
- Dec 10, 2012
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Let's also consider that some of the lineup decisions you've claimed Dean has to deal with are actually his own doing. We had better options than Sam Steel for 1C, but who was the one who chose to put him there? Same with Gaudreau as a 2C? In fact you could probably semi-accurately make the case that Evason is why Gaudreau is on this team. Evason has also chosen to use guys like Foligno in premier situations (top 6, PP) despite actually having better options at times. Evason is the one who continues to play Zuccarello almost 20 minutes per night on the top line despite the endless turnovers and lazy backchecks and forced passes.
Nothing Evason has done seems to indicate he's a darn good coach. He may not be the worst coach in the league, but this season right here is proof of how much guys like Fiala and Kaprizov can impact a mediocre team. When they were good the last few years, this team was a playoff team, albeit a weak one. When they're bad (or not here), this team is picking top 7. If Dean was a darn good coach, this team wouldn't live and die on Kaprizov's stick.
Nothing Evason has done seems to indicate he's a darn good coach. He may not be the worst coach in the league, but this season right here is proof of how much guys like Fiala and Kaprizov can impact a mediocre team. When they were good the last few years, this team was a playoff team, albeit a weak one. When they're bad (or not here), this team is picking top 7. If Dean was a darn good coach, this team wouldn't live and die on Kaprizov's stick.
If you could stop projecting and debate hockey, that would be much appreciated.
It’s proof that Dean had to go out and find something, ANYTHING, to work in that spot because the GM wasn’t going to find him a top 6 solution. When you don’t have a clear cut solution because your GM sucks at giving you talent down the middle, that’s tough to blame on the coach.
- Dec 10, 2012
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Guerin being bad at his job doesn't mean Evason is good at his. They both range anywhere from below average to terrible.
This team has been as good as it has up until this season because of the pieces Fletcher and Fenton left for these guys finally coming to fruition, not because either of them are darn good at what they do.
We actually have somewhat of an idea of what Guerin and Evason's results look like without Kaprizov this year, and it's clearly not a very good product.
Spurgeon
Registered User
Could the same argument not be made that BB sparked a resurgence in Staal’s career? He was pretty consistently a 20G-30A guy prior to coming here.
The 2021-2022 & 2017-2018 rosters were definitely the best in this team’s history. I think 21-22 was built for a deeper run though.
I feel like this is really trying to ram a square peg into a round hole. Evason doesn't control who is on the roster. He controls the use of the players on the roster and putting them in the best place to succeed. The GREEF line was one of the best lines in hockey. It had something like an 83% goals for % in 21-22, which was top of the league for any line that had at least 200 minutes. Anyone who splits that line to start 22-23 is begging to be ridiculed. Yet, here you seem to imply that's what Dean should have done? Because there's no chance you'd advocate that Gaudreau should have been placed there. Dewar? No shot. Steel had at least a history of high offensive numbers prior to the NHL. Regardless of those three and who was put there, it's the SAME story. All of those guys suck in terms of being top 6 centers.
It's interesting that you call out Zuccarello right now. I have agreed plenty that Zucc has deserved a large amount of criticism, but he and Rossi have been the best offensive forwards on the team so far this season, and especially lately, and that says a lot about Kaprizov and Boldy. I advocated just last game that Kap and Boldy should be swapped. You get our two best offensive forwards (Rossi, Zucc) away from the guy who will rebound eventually, but doesn't have "it" at the moment.
I'm sorry, I just flat out disagree. What coach is going to take a team hampered by almost $15M in dead cap and another $16M in players who haven't decided to show up for the season yet (Boldy, Kap), and suddenly make a drastic turnaround? What exactly are they going to do? What's the magic button? Dean's rotated the lineup pretty regularly this season. That was a criticism he's grown from. He's playing rookies (Rossi, Faber) in key spots, which you called for him to do at least regarding Rossi. He's tried to play the hot hand in net, but both Gus and Fleury have sucked so far this year. He can't even healthy scratch Boldy or Kaprizov because the roster doesn't carry an extra forward
I guess I just don't see this magic button being there that a new coach can come in and press to get the team magically playing well. I don't think that Boudreau would be having more success with this team. I don't think anyone would be having much success with this team. It was poorly constructed. Like constructing a building out of just wood and skipping the fire code inspection. Eventually the fire comes.
It doesn't mean he's bad at it. There is not a single quality coach that hasn't benefitted from having good players on the roster. There's also probably not a single coach that could pull this team up with an obviously not 100% Kaprizov. Again, like I asked above, what is the magic button a new coach would come in and press? I don't see it.
It's one thing to have a roster loaded with talent and fail. It's a completely different thing to have a below average roster that is getting below average results.
Is there an argument that this team is loaded with talent? If there is, I want to hear it. If there isn't, how many teams are out there winning with the same level of roster?
Dr Jan Itor
Registered User
I'd be incredibly surprised if Zuccarello, Hartman and Foligno were re-signed without input from the head coach.
I'm clearly not a fan of Dean-o and was pretty much done with him after his horrific attempt at playing the refs last postseason. But it still doesn't change the fact that he's working with a flawed and handicapped roster and there probably is only so much he can do.
I'm clearly not a fan of Dean-o and was pretty much done with him after his horrific attempt at playing the refs last postseason. But it still doesn't change the fact that he's working with a flawed and handicapped roster and there probably is only so much he can do.
I've seen a good coach, with an exponentially more flawed roster, lose a lot of games, but you could still see good coaching in the process despite the poor results.
Of course, there were those who were still unhappy and wanted to blame him... getting tired of the "moral victories" etc. Lemaire was a great coach. Might have had a disconnect with his players finally at the end, but that will happen to any coach after 9 seasons.
Just mentioning Jacques brought a horde of memories back. Great coach, and player. As I've said on here a couple of times, I remember him as a young hotshot player tooling around my town in a GTO, and getting groceries at the local Perrette(7/11). He lived a couple of doors down from my youth hockey coach.
He was definitely a couple of tiers above Dean as a coach, Bruce a tier above. Having said that, Dean is a decent pro coach, but gets exposed in the playoffs. His main problem is his roster, but I also think there are mixed messages in his system. He wants it both ways....to "activate" his Dmen, yet play a sound defensive system. To be tough and physical, yet not take penalties. The poor FO and Special team capabilities of this team year after year, as well as our poor playoff performance, are damning, though. Even if your players aren't the greatest, you should be able to coach them up to win a FO and PK.
Dr Jan Itor
Registered User
Should be pretty hot. The extensions, if they were his idea, were sign that he thought this team would not be at the top of the draft. If they end up there, it obviously puts his judgment into question (if it wasn't already).
There's no way they sign those deals if part of the "plan" was to be uncompetitive during the $14M buyout years.
BuiumSaveUs
Danila Yurov Fan Club Executive Assistant
- May 2, 2018
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I hate to tell you guys but I think the newly anointed “President of Hockey Operations” who was given the green light to buyout Parise and Suter has a pretty long leash yet. I think he could realistically have two putrid years in a row and then be given a “show me year” when the buys outs are over.
Could somebody with more time do an updated synopsis of his tenure by recapping his big moves?
Could somebody with more time do an updated synopsis of his tenure by recapping his big moves?
