Bettman meeting with Ryan Smith, owner of Utah Jazz and Real Salt Lake (upd: Smith asks NHL to open expansion process)

[GKJ]

I read that 2034 Olympics are a slam dunk for Salt Lake, I don't know how true this is.

Either one of 2030 or 2034

 

[Tawnos]

That simply isn’t the reporting right now.

Right. This is not a contingency plan if the auction falls through. This is an alternative plan to waiting for the auction to happen.

The decision hasn't been made yet to execute the agreement. It's still going to have to go in front of the Board of Governors.

 

[Tawnos]

Either one of 2030 or 2034

We'll find out in July, but at the moment the IOC has named the French Alps bid as the most likely to be selected for 2030 and the SLC bid most likely to be selected for 2034.

 

[No Fun Shogun]

I'm just looking forward to Olympic hockey at a reasonable time regardless of when it happens.

 

[Voight]

So I actually know someone who used to work for Enron. Yes they were surprised.

It's the old line about bankruptcy - it happens very slowly - then all at once. You can tell that something doesn't look sustainable, but the situation lasts for years and years and years - until all of a sudden it doesn't.

So look, this is some of the most negative reporting about Arizona I've seen in over a decade of following the story. But that doesn't 100% mean the team is relocating - since I was 100% convinced back in 2010-2011 the team was moving, and clearly I was wrong.

Let me say I will mourn for all Coyotes fans - it sucks to lose your hockey team. I went through that in 1996 (Winnipeg) and wouldn't wish that on any hockey fan.

What interests me the most is the reported cost of $1.2 Billion - that's nearly double the cost of Seattle just a few years ago. And I very much want to watch how the cost breaks down in terms of purchase price versus "relocation fee". The "relocation fee" was only ever charged once that I can tell, for Atlanta to Winnipeg, but it seems to cover the idea that the league wants to avoid a windfall to an otherwise failed ownership group.

Seattle was an expansion franchise. Its not he same thing. Senators just sold for a billion dollars (or close to it).

 

[StreetHawk]

Seattle was an expansion franchise. Its not he same thing. Senators just sold for a billion dollars (or close to it).

Nash, Pitt, Ott, and TB all sold in the past 3 or so years. Anywhere from $800 mill odd mill to TB's $1.4 mill valuation. For those not familiar with Valuation is the price of 100% of the team, thus like TB, if you sell 40% of the team, you get 40% of $1.4 billion or $560 mill.

This is how any future expansion will be. All behind the scenes, like Seattle was and how this relocation is happening. NHL is done with the open bidding process they had with LV and QC as the only 2 applicants back in 2015 or so. I think the NHL was a bit embarrassed by the low turnout for a new team. With the money involved and arena situations, you kind of know who you are dealing with.

 

[GKJ]

Nash, Pitt, Ott, and TB all sold in the past 3 or so years. Anywhere from $800 mill odd mill to TB's $1.4 mill valuation. For those not familiar with Valuation is the price of 100% of the team, thus like TB, if you sell 40% of the team, you get 40% of $1.4 billion or $560 mill.

This is how any future expansion will be. All behind the scenes, like Seattle was and how this relocation is happening. NHL is done with the open bidding process they had with LV and QC as the only 2 applicants back in 2015 or so. I think the NHL was a bit embarrassed by the low turnout for a new team. With the money involved and arena situations, you kind of know who you are dealing with.

NHL definitely expected a Seattle bid at that time, but the success of Vegas definitely changed the game. If they had an open process, they’d get 6 or 7 bids from people who at least thought they were serious.

 

[StreetHawk]

NHL definitely expected a Seattle bid at that time, but the success of Vegas definitely changed the game. If they had an open process, they’d get 6 or 7 bids from people who at least thought they were serious.

You also know who the players are for any city, due to arenas and what not. I mean in SLC, right now it was only with Smith as he owns the Jazz and likely controls the Delta Center. Same with Houston and Fertitia. Any talks about going into an NBA city would likely have to involve the NBA owner. Unless there is an entity willing to build another arena like in ATL.

So, very easy to have a conversation behind the scenes with these individuals.

 

[GKJ]

You also know who the players are for any city, due to arenas and what not. I mean in SLC, right now it was only with Smith as he owns the Jazz and likely controls the Delta Center. Same with Houston and Fertitia. Any talks about going into an NBA city would likely have to involve the NBA owner. Unless there is an entity willing to build another arena like in ATL.

So, very easy to have a conversation behind the scenes with these individuals.

Timing is everything. Ryan Smith has it. No one else does.

 

[Tawnos]

If Fertitta hadn't made the statements he made and focused on creating a good relationship with the league, he'd probably have the right timing here too.

 

[JKG33]

So if this does happen does Arizona jump over Houston as the top expansion candidate if the arena gets built?

Or would this kill any talk of a new arena?

I think the plan would be for Arizona to get an arena and then an expansion team. The NHL seems to want 36 teams. Houston, Atlanta, Arizona, and then one of KC/QC/TOR/???.

I think Houston is next in line if Fertitta is the owner, given they have an arena ready. Atlanta and Arizona presumably in a race for #2, depending on who gets their arena done first.

Wikipedia lists Delta Center at 14,000 for hockey. There are apparently some changes the NHL is going to require to play there, so it's possible that number changes slightly.

If the Jets can play in a permanent 14k seat arena, Salt Lake is more than fine to have that as a temporary home. With the Olympic bid it's pretty much a foregone conclusion they'll have a new rink. Just a matter of when and where.

 

[KevFu]

Wikipedia lists Delta Center at 14,000 for hockey. There are apparently some changes the NHL is going to require to play there, so it's possible that number changes slightly.

It's not a ton of changes the NHL needs because it's an NBA Arena. It's got the media accommodations for three TV crews and five radio crews; all the back of house stuff the NHL needs built in. It's probably missing a dentist's chair and a skate sharpener and that's about it.

It's a first-class NHL caliber arena, except for 4000 missing seats in the end zones.

It's a better situation than Barclay's was for NYI.

I read that 2034 Olympics are a slam dunk for Salt Lake, I don't know how true this is.

There are so few countries who are both capable and willing to host the Winter Olympics that the IOC is looking for cities to be on a list of about 10 semi-permanent rotating host cities; where it would be assumed you'd host every 40 years, unless someone else off the list decides to bid for one and you let them.

And Salt Lake City is someone the IOC reached out to about being on the list, and SLC is willing and eager to be on that list.

It's gonna be 2034. It's not a "done deal" but it's definitely a slam dunk.

That's why Salt Lake is suddenly like "NHL Team! MLB Team! New NBA/NHL Arena!" because they're planning their facilities for the Winter Olympics now.

 

[bleedblue94]

Nash, Pitt, Ott, and TB all sold in the past 3 or so years. Anywhere from $800 mill odd mill to TB's $1.4 mill valuation. For those not familiar with Valuation is the price of 100% of the team, thus like TB, if you sell 40% of the team, you get 40% of $1.4 billion or $560 mill.

This is how any future expansion will be. All behind the scenes, like Seattle was and how this relocation is happening. NHL is done with the open bidding process they had with LV and QC as the only 2 applicants back in 2015 or so. I think the NHL was a bit embarrassed by the low turnout for a new team. With the money involved and arena situations, you kind of know who you are dealing with.

Many people are missing that most of those sales also came with buildings or real estate for a building or development. People keep saying the sens sold for X, they didnt. the sens, arena, land, AND the rights tto exclusive negotiiation for LeBreton development sold for X.

The Yotes "selling" for 1b is so disingenuous. The league is handling the sale and AM is no way getting 1B out of the deal, but the valuation of the sale will be to the tune of 1B whether that is debt forgiveness, credits to future expansion, and whatever else. There is a reason the league is negotiating and handled the sale while AM and RS groups are not dealing with each other at all. The league can walk out "values" as the "sale price" and protect the franchise values it has built up over the years. Any ability to say the coyotes sold for 1b only makes it easier for the league to ask for 1.5b-2b for the next expansion series.

 

[StreetHawk]

Agreed. League will toss out a number to keep it close to TB’s valuation for optics sake when it comes to future expansion prices.

 

[KevFu]

Many people are missing that most of those sales also came with buildings or real estate for a building or development. People keep saying the sens sold for X, they didnt. the sens, arena, land, AND the rights tto exclusive negotiiation for LeBreton development sold for X.

The Yotes "selling" for 1b is so disingenuous. The league is handling the sale and AM is no way getting 1B out of the deal, but the valuation of the sale will be to the tune of 1B whether that is debt forgiveness, credits to future expansion, and whatever else. There is a reason the league is negotiating and handled the sale while AM and RS groups are not dealing with each other at all. The league can walk out "values" as the "sale price" and protect the franchise values it has built up over the years. Any ability to say the coyotes sold for 1b only makes it easier for the league to ask for 1.5b-2b for the next expansion series.

This is another thing that to me points to a "NHL was leaning towards expanding to SLC, and Smith was willing/eager to be a solution for the Coyotes arena problem with a franchise switch-a-roo."

Because in that scenario the "flow of money" doesn't really matter, it's all just Smith's expansion fee money being passed around over 3-5 years. Doesn't matter what the Coyotes are worth, as long as you collect the expansion number, minus a little discount to Smith for giving up the lead time for branding and taking the Coyotes 25th place roster instead of an expansion draft.

 

[bleedblue94]

This is another thing that to me points to a "NHL was leaning towards expanding to SLC, and Smith was willing/eager to be a solution for the Coyotes arena problem with a franchise switch-a-roo."

Because in that scenario the "flow of money" doesn't really matter, it's all just Smith's expansion fee money being passed around over 3-5 years. Doesn't matter what the Coyotes are worth, as long as you collect the expansion number, minus a little discount to Smith for giving up the lead time for branding and taking the Coyotes 25th place roster instead of an expansion draft.

100%.

By the NHL handling all parts of this (usually they are a part to the transactions so they are in the know, they are not the actual broker) they can manage this whole thing however they want. As long as the owners are good with it then they can state whatever they want publicly, they can manipulate information (as they do so well), they can claim whatever they want. No one is actually able to dispute it other than RS and AM, and RS is in the NHL club now and so is AM. I have absolutely no doubt that the NHL will help AM through the processes of the auction and such unless he grenades it through his own processes. They want to be in ARZ and AM is a guy that wants a big development and needs a team to help politically justify it. They are partners and I bet there is some level of this where the league also told AM that if he gets out of the spotlight (team moves) then he may have an easier time through this political process. Suddenly ARZ politicians believe that the NHL will leave bc they actually did (two decades of stuff to make them call the NHL bluff), not everything they do during the development will be so acutely in the spotlight without the team there, and "hopefully" by the time the NHL returns with a sparkling new arena the wounds locally will have at least partially health and everyone can move forward with a new building and great future. The NHL will go back the ARZ, they want it and after 2 decades of trying to make it work this will be a white whale for the league to make this work

 

[Yukon Joe]

So thinking about it - the "Arizona has first shot at an expansion franchise - if there's a new arena" is not a bad thing for AM. It may in fact give him more leverage.

Right now the team is already in the Phoenix area. AM can threaten to move the team, but ASU doesn't really care. ASU is happy to have the Yotes pay rent at Mullett, but doesn't otherwise bring them much value. The various municipalities in Phoenix might not mind to have the Yotes play in their specific municipality, but there's no urgency as the team is already in Phoenix.

If the team is gone though - now there's an incentive for Phoenix/Scottsdale/Tempe/wherever to try and lure them back.

Just a thought.

 

[GKJ]

So thinking about it - the "Arizona has first shot at an expansion franchise - if there's a new arena" is not a bad thing for AM. It may in fact give him more leverage.

Right now the team is already in the Phoenix area. AM can threaten to move the team, but ASU doesn't really care. ASU is happy to have the Yotes pay rent at Mullett, but doesn't otherwise bring them much value. The various municipalities in Phoenix might not mind to have the Yotes play in their specific municipality, but there's no urgency as the team is already in Phoenix.

If the team is gone though - now there's an incentive for Phoenix/Scottsdale/Tempe/wherever to try and lure them back.

Just a thought.

I don’t know how this makes any sense. It’s not news that they’re looking for a building. They were kicked out of one municipality, skunked in another, and some believe basically stonewalled from Phoenix by Ishbia. There’s been urgency for two years and no one’s been amenable to that.

 

[BKIslandersFan]

Anyone notice there is no one from Utah around here?

When Vegas was closing in on getting a team, there was couple of Vegas people hanging around here. Ditto for Seattle.

 

[GindyDraws]

Anyone notice there is no one from Utah around here?

When Vegas was closing in on getting a team, there was couple of Vegas people hanging around here. Ditto for Seattle.

Oh, you'll see the Utah fans show up.

I don’t know how this makes any sense. It’s not news that they’re looking for a building. They were kicked out of one municipality, skunked in another, and some believe basically stonewalled from Phoenix by Ishbia. There’s been urgency for two years and no one’s been amenable to that.

The thing is that people are amenable to hockey in Arizona... they just don't want the damn Coyotes, if that makes sense.

 

[RayMartyniukTotems]

Too many teams already face issues with fans checking out once they are out of contention for a playoff spot. This can't be good if they keep expanding which would result in more teams being out of contention earlier than normal.

Expand the number of play-off teams from 16 to 32 in a 40 team NHL

 

[bleedblue94]

I don’t know how this makes any sense. It’s not news that they’re looking for a building. They were kicked out of one municipality, skunked in another, and some believe basically stonewalled from Phoenix by Ishbia. There’s been urgency for two years and no one’s been amenable to that.

It is different when the league has done all it has to keep the team in the state. at some point it becomes a situation that people/politicians just start to believe that the league will never change course, that the league would never move the team. now that it looks to be happening does that shake some people loose? do some of the people that have not helped the coyotes find stability start to reconsider and try to be a part of a solutions?

I think part of what also needs to be remembered here is there are people in the state that just do not trust the league based on the extortion tactics it played on glendale for years. the league in some ways tainted itself with the political world of the state. no one wanted to be the next to be burned by the NHL. now with the NHL leaving (hopefully only for a bit) maybe this will give the market and the state itself a chance to breathe and come back with a different willingness for all parties to work together.

BTW Ishbia could very well have just run a strategy play of denying access unless he got the team at a sweetheart price. it didn't happen, neither side blinked and this is just another part of why the team is moving. in a lot of ways no one can blame Ishbia based on the history of coyote owners and how/what their purchases looked like a long with just how dire the situation got. in his mind he is thinking he has the ONLY viable NHL type home for the team so why should he have to pay top dollar to do the league a favor? if the league is getting 1b for the team from RS then it's not like they or AM would have sold it to Ishbia for 500m

 

[GKJ]

It is different when the league has done all it has to keep the team in the state. at some point it becomes a situation that people/politicians just start to believe that the league will never change course, that the league would never move the team. now that it looks to be happening does that shake some people loose? do some of the people that have not helped the coyotes find stability start to reconsider and try to be a part of a solutions?

I think part of what also needs to be remembered here is there are people in the state that just do not trust the league based on the extortion tactics it played on glendale for years. the league in some ways tainted itself with the political world of the state. no one wanted to be the next to be burned by the NHL. now with the NHL leaving (hopefully only for a bit) maybe this will give the market and the state itself a chance to breathe and come back with a different willingness for all parties to work together.

BTW Ishbia could very well have just run a strategy play of denying access unless he got the team at a sweetheart price. it didn't happen, neither side blinked and this is just another part of why the team is moving. in a lot of ways no one can blame Ishbia based on the history of coyote owners and how/what their purchases looked like a long with just how dire the situation got. in his mind he is thinking he has the ONLY viable NHL type home for the team so why should he have to pay top dollar to do the league a favor? if the league is getting 1b for the team from RS then it's not like they or AM would have sold it to Ishbia for 500m

If the owner has a good reputation, the rest won’t matter. I don’t think this will happen under Meruelo.

 

[Tawnos]

I decided this morning to do some geostatistical work just for fun to see where SLC will rank in market size going *strictly* by the NHL's definition of team territory. That definition is 50 miles from the city limits.

As of the 2020 census, Salt Lake City has 2,665,854 people in its territory. If they expanded there today, without any Coyotes shenanigans, that would be the 27th largest territorial population in the NHL. If the Coyotes relocate there, they'll move up to 26th since the territory in Arizona wouldn't be on the list any more. Just over 100k fewer people than Nashville's territory. The teams below are Vegas, Buffalo, Ottawa, Calgary, Edmonton, and Winnipeg. Canadian numbers are from their 2021 census.

 

[bleedblue94]

If the owner has a good reputation, the rest won’t matter. I don’t think this will happen under Meruelo.

I also believe it is entirely possible that AM is the guy that gets the development done, gets the team back from the NHL per the agreement with the NHL, and then sells the actual arena and team to another party after he gets the development finished.

Everyone gets what they want:
Utah - gets a team and will now certainly get their new arena
NHL - team in ARZ with a new NHL arena AND a team in Utah so they get RS in the ownership family
AM - his entertainment district
ARZ hockey people - a new owner that they can potentially trust because it wont be AM long-term after all of this

The NHL brokering this deal with AM is being done to just get this away from him right now. It is just too toxic in general. Even if he gets the first right on the expansion team he can always acquire it from the NHL and whatever the predetermined discount cost is (they are no doubt negotiating that right now) and then he can sell it to another party for a higher value with the arena and make another profit.