Better player during their first 5 years: Crosby or McDavid?

[Varan]

Not really sure what else Crosby was supposed to do in those two series..?

The initial point was about MAF being blamed for their shortcomings from 10-15

 

[Gurglesons]

The initial point was about MAF being blamed for their shortcomings from 10-15

Are you really going to defend Fleury's performance in 2012?

 

[Varan]

Are you really going to defend Fleury's performance in 2012?

2012 was 1 series. I agree the Flyers smoked him, but that was 1 series. I still haven’t seen the lengthy record of whelming performances.

 

[Gurglesons]

2012 was 1 series. I agree the Flyers smoked him, but that was 1 series. I still haven’t seen the lengthy record of whelming performances.

Here.

NHL Stats

From 2009-10 to 2014-15. MAF has 3 of the worst twenty performances amongst playoff goaltenders that played 4 games. There was 105 goaltenders that played at least one series.

NHL Stats

From 2009-10 to 2014-15 out of those 105 goaltenders MAF is the 11th worst.

NHL Stats

If you increase the sample size to 14 games. He is the 3rd worst out of 26.

Maybe a sub .900 SV is Crosby's fault though. Probably a testament to the lack of defensive play from Sid.

2015 was arguably MAF's best goalie performance in PIT outside of 2008 though, so if you need me to concede there to prove some stupid point. Sure.

 

[Varan]

Here.

NHL Stats

From 2009-10 to 2014-15. MAF has 3 of the worst twenty performances amongst playoff goaltenders that played 4 games. There was 105 goaltenders that played at least one series.

NHL Stats

From 2009-10 to 2014-15 out of those 105 goaltenders MAF is the 11th worst.

NHL Stats

If you increase the sample size to 14 games. He is the 3rd worst out of 26.

Maybe a sub .900 SV is Crosby's fault though. Probably a testament to the lack of defensive play from Sid.

2015 was arguably MAF's best goalie performance in PIT outside of 2008 though, so if you need me to concede there to prove some stupid point. Sure.

out of the 20, I’ve conceded 2 (2010 and 2012. 2013 he actually won 2 games (wasn’t part of the sweep which you conceded your 2 stars played bad)

Again, everyone has bad series so this doesn’t really prove much. When you guys won the cup in 2009 and 2017 and made the Finals in 2008, he was great. So it shows you that he shows up when it counts most. Point out 2 bad series over 7 years is meaningless

 

[Gurglesons]

out of the 20, I’ve conceded 2 (2010 and 2012. 2013 he actually won 2 games (wasn’t part of the sweep which you conceded your 2 stars played bad)

Again, everyone has bad series so this doesn’t really prove much. When you guys won the cup in 2009 and 2017 and made the Finals in 2008, he was great. So it shows you that he shows up when it counts most. Point out 2 bad series over 7 years is meaningless

He was bad in 2009-10, he was bad in 2010-11, he was bad in 2011-12, he lost his starting job in 2012-13, he was bad in 2012-13, he was largely bad in 2013-14 besides some solid games in the NYR series, good in 2014-15, lost his job in 2015-16, lost his job in 2016-17.

He essentially had one good run in 2014-15. Following that he was decent in 2016-17, but ultimately lost his gig. Not sure how Fleury losing his job is a positive.

 

[Varan]

He was bad in 2009-10, he was bad in 2010-11, he was bad in 2011-12, he lost his starting job in 2012-13, he was bad in 2012-13, he was largely bad in 2013-14 besides some solid games in the NYR series, good in 2014-15, lost his job in 2015-16, lost his job in 2016-17.

He essentially had one good run in 2014-15. Following that he was decent in 2016-17, but ultimately lost his gig. Not sure how Fleury losing his job is a positive.

But 09-10 is a write off right? So we have to give him the excuse. I can point out how your 2 superstars both went pointless in game 7 for a combined -3. But again like you said it was a write off, and I agree because they had played too much hockey to that point.

2010-11: Crosby and Malkin didn’t play in the playoffs, basically no chance at all for the Pens.

2012: No argument

2013: I don’t know how you’re bad if you go 2-2 in the playoffs. Again I’m not a Pens historian so maybe it was due to his RS play that he lose playing time? You have to fill that in

2014: I can say how in the last 3 games of the NY series, your superstars scored a COMBINED 2 points (both from Malkin), and yet we are blaming Fleury? The Penguins scored a grand total of 3 goals in the final three games after scoring 9 in games 2-4. Game 5 was bad yes (5 goals), but he allowed 3 and 2 goals respectively in the last 2 games. That’s not horrendous considering his forwards couldn’t do anything anymore.

2015: Great

 

[Gurglesons]

But 09-10 is a write off right? So we have to give him the excuse. I can point out how your 2 superstars both went pointless in game 7 for a combined -3. But again like you said it was a write off, and I agree because they had played too much hockey to that point.

2010-11: Crosby and Malkin didn’t play in the playoffs, basically no chance at all for the Pens.

2012: No argument

2013: I don’t know how you’re bad if you go 2-2 in the playoffs. Again I’m not a Pens historian so maybe it was due to his RS play that he lose playing time? You have to fill that in

2014: I can say how in the last 3 games of the NY series, your superstars scored a COMBINED 2 points (both from Malkin), and yet we are blaming Fleury? The Penguins scored a grand total of 3 goals in the final three games after scoring 9 in games 2-4. Game 5 was bad yes (5 goals), but he allowed 3 and 2 goals respectively in the last 2 games. That’s not horrendous considering his forwards couldn’t do anything anymore.

2015: Great

Nah, dawg. Fleury was just terrible. The Isles and Columbus series in 2013 and 2014 are still meme'd.

It's cool that we've now reached the point in revisionist Penguins history where Fleury is one of the reasons that the Penguins had a chance in the playoffs and Crosby and Malkin's grand failures are what has really been the issue.

 

[Varan]

Nah, dawg. Fleury was just terrible. The Isles and Columbus series in 2013 and 2014 are still meme'd.

I have to disagree that he was terrible my guy. Not his usual self? Sure. But you can make the case that from 09-15 it was a collective team issue, instead of putting the blame solely on one player. Crosby and Malkin have had most of their stinkers during that stretch

 

[Gurglesons]

I have to disagree that he was terrible my guy. Not his usual self? Sure. But you can make the case that from 09-15 it was a collective team issue, instead of putting the blame solely on one player. Crosby and Malkin have had most of their stinkers during that stretch

From 2009-10 to 2014-15 two players had a better PPG in the playoffs. One was Getzlaf. One was MacKinnon who played 7 games. In terms of raw points that had more points than anyone not named Kane or Toews who played 30+ more games in that time period.

Explain to me how that is being a "stinker".

 

[Varan]

From 2009-10 to 2014-15 two players had a better PPG in the playoffs. One was Getzlaf. One was MacKinnon who played 7 games.

Explain to me how that is being a "stinker".

When I said stinker, I meant most of their bad series in their entire career, I didn't mention that there were that many. 2013 v BOS, 2014 v NY, 2015 v NY (that was hard to watch the Pens not gonna lie, they looked absolutely lethargic and got run over).

MacKinnon doesn't even count by virtue of only 7 games

 

[Gurglesons]

When I said stinker, I meant most of their bad series in their entire career, I didn't mention that there were that many. 2013 v BOS, 2014 v NY, 2015 v NY (that was hard to watch the Pens not gonna lie, they looked absolutely lethargic and got run over).

MacKinnon doesn't even count by virtue of only 7 games

If you think Crosby or Malkin was the main reason for any of the losses in those three years, like you said you aren't exactly a "Pens historian".

 

[Varan]

If you think Crosby or Malkin was the main reason for any of the losses in those three years, like you said you aren't exactly a "Pens historian".

I said it was a collective team issue. The 2 most important players on the team playing bad doesn’t help.

But this post just goes to my point, that you can never hold them accountable, it’s always something else

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Again, everyone has bad series so this doesn’t really prove much. When you guys won the cup in 2009 and 2017 and made the Finals in 2008, he was great. So it shows you that he shows up when it counts most. Point out 2 bad series over 7 years is meaningless

Why do you insist on re-writing history? Fleury was not "great" in the 2009 Cup run. He had moments where he was "great", like Game 6 and 7 versus Detroit. But he was also a dumpster fire in a lot of his other games.

It's actually frustrating reading people re-write the past to try and make their point. You saying Fleury was "great" is about as accurate as me saying Ovechkin's been trash in every playoff run except when the Caps won the Cup.

 

[Gurglesons]

I said it was a collective team issue. The 2 most important players on the team playing bad doesn’t help.

But this post just goes to my point, that you can never hold them accountable, it’s always something else

They scored at a better PPG than basically everyone in the league but Getzlaf in those years. It was pretty clearly something else.

This is as stupid as the Ovechkin is a bad playoff performer narrative.

 

[Varan]

Why do you insist on re-writing history? Fleury was not "great" in the 2009 Cup run. He had moments where he was "great", like Game 6 and 7 versus Detroit. But he was also a dumpster fire in a lot of his other games.

It's actually frustrating reading people re-write the past to try and make their point. You saying Fleury was "great" is about as accurate as me saying Ovechkin's been trash in every playoff run except when the Caps won the Cup.

I'm not re-writing history, but taking a deeper look into the facts. Has he had bad series? Yes. Was he not his usual self like he was in those cup runs? No. But the fact that you guys consistently blame him for the Penguins shortcoming is just annoying to read.

The man has proven that he can give any team a chance to win (had one of the biggest carry jobs I've ever seen in 2018), yet you guys consistently harp on 2-3 "bad series" forgetting to realize you have your SUPERSTARS at the height of their powers. But no, Fleury has to be the main reason for success, and if he isn't anything but perfect, he sucks.

 

[Varan]

They scored at a better PPG than basically everyone in the league but Getzlaf in those years. It was pretty clearly something else.

This is as stupid as the Ovechkin is a bad playoff performer narrative.

Again, cannot get yourself to hold them accountable. It's ridiculous. They are in their absolute primes, they're not rookies or how they are now.

 

[Gurglesons]

I'm not re-writing history, but taking a deeper look into the facts. Has he had bad series? Yes. Was he not his usual self like he was in those cup runs? No. But the fact that you guys consistently blame him for the Penguins shortcoming is just annoying to read. The man has proven that he can give any team a chance to win (had one of the biggest carry jobs I've ever seen in 2018), yet you guys consistently harp on 2-3 "bad series" forgetting to realize you have your SUPERSTARS at the height of their powers. But no, Fleury has to be the main reason for success.

• Fleury was an above-average starter once in eight seasons as the starter in Pittsburgh. This is accounting for Pittsburgh's team defence - which as mentioned above was never worse than 14th in the league and frequently top-10 when Fleury was the starter.
• Fleury was the 22nd best starter or worse in five of his eleven seasons as a starter. Not only was Fleury often not elite, he was abjectly bad in almost half of the seasons he was a starting goaltender.
• From 2009 until 2013, he was consistently one of the worst playoff goalies in the league. This included four consecutive bottom-4 performances.
• Fleury had one top-5 regular season (2017-18) and three top-5 playoff runs. Two of those, to his credit, were trips to the Cup final while one was a 5-game loss in the first round.
  
  @JackFr

Yes, Fleury was not the reason that the Pens were objectively a paper tiger for many years. It was the two players destroying the league on a regular basis in both the regular season and playoffs. They should've just been better. But REMEMBER. Whenever Sid or Malkin do achieve something. It's because "the team" and playoffs and hockey aren't individual awards!

When Sid does something like assists or scores 80% of the GWGs in the ECF and SCF in 2016. Kessel deserves the Smythe because of points and its the "worst Smythe victory in history".

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

I'm not re-writing history, but taking a deeper look into the facts. Has he had bad series? Yes. Was he not his usual self like he was in those cup runs? No. But the fact that you guys consistently blame him for the Penguins shortcoming is just annoying to read.

The man has proven that he can give any team a chance to win (had one of the biggest carry jobs I've ever seen in 2018), yet you guys consistently harp on 2-3 "bad series" forgetting to realize you have your SUPERSTARS at the height of their powers. But no, Fleury has to be the main reason for success, and if he isn't anything but perfect, he sucks.

Take your diatribe elsewhere. I'm talking about you saying Fleury was "great" in the 2009 Cup run. You making some strawman argument about Pens fans blaming Fleury for EVERYTHING is silly. His playoff flops were one of the main reasons, but no one has argued he's the sole reason the Pens aren't 10 time Cup champs at this point.

Again, if Fleury was "great" during the 2009 Cup run then Ovechkin is the reason the Caps couldn't make it out of the 2nd round every year except 2018. Both statements are about as accurate as each other.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Again, cannot get yourself to hold them accountable. It's ridiculous. They are in their absolute primes, they're not rookies or how they are now.

It's funny how you want to hold Sid and Geno "accountable" when the Pens don't do well in the playoffs, yet your boy has gotten out of the 2nd round 1 time in his entire career and you'll throw a tantrum if anyone suggests he's a major reason for that lack of success.

 

[Varan]

Take your diatribe elsewhere. I'm talking about you saying Fleury was "great" in the 2009 Cup run. You making some strawman argument about Pens fans blaming Fleury for EVERYTHING is silly. His playoff flops were one of the main reasons, but no one has argued he's the sole reason the Pens aren't 10 time Cup champs at this point.

Again, if Fleury was "great" during the 2009 Cup run then Ovechkin is the reason the Caps couldn't make it out of the 2nd round every year except 2018. Both statements are about as accurate as each other.

He posted a .913 and allowed 17 goals in 7 games against the reigning champs. That's not great? What standard do you hold for him?

 

[Gurglesons]

He posted a .913 and allowed 17 goals in 7 games against the reigning champs. That's not great? What standard do you hold for him?

If you want to dissect game by game to prove your narrative feel free. Most of us are looking at large sample sizes here as plenty of shit players have reasonable seven games series.

 

[Varan]

It's funny how you want to hold Sid and Geno "accountable" when the Pens don't do well in the playoffs, yet your boy has gotten out of the 2nd round 1 time in his entire career and you'll throw a tantrum if anyone suggests he's a major reason for that lack of success.

I'm not afraid to blame OV for only getting out of the 2nd round once. 2013, 2015, 2017 are all years I blame Ovechkin mostly for not doing more to help his team succeed. 2017 I blame him 100%. He played no defense, lazy off the puck, was almost a non-factor outside of his 2 goals.

That's different from you guys, where, once again, they get the LeBron treatment. If they win they're amazing, if they lose, oh no, it's not their fault. Ray Shero is incompetent, Dan B. can't adjust, Fleury sucks.

It's like the mere thought of Crosby and Malkin being looked at in a negative light doesn't exist.

 

[Gurglesons]

I'm not afraid to blame OV for only getting out of the 2nd round once. 2013, 2015, 2017 are all years I blame Ovechkin mostly for not doing more to help his team succeed. 2017 I blame him 100%. He played no defense, lazy off the puck, was almost a non-factor outside of his 2 goals.

That's different from you guys, where, once again, they get the LeBron treatment. If they win they're amazing, if they lose, oh no, it's not their fault. Ray Shero is incompetent, Dan B. can't adjust, Fleury sucks.

It's like the mere thought of Crosby and Malkin being looked at in a negative light doesn't exist.

Well, looks like your takes on Ovechkin are as wrong as your takes on Crosby and Malkin.

 

[Varan]

If you want to dissect game by game to prove your narrative feel free. Most of us are looking at large sample sizes here as plenty of shit players have reasonable seven games series.

That poster was asking specifically for THAT series. He played the champs and did well in my book, especially in the final 2 games and that game-7 final save. He was fantastic