Better player during their first 5 years: Crosby or McDavid?

[Gurglesons]

Buddy relax, why are you going off LOL

I did watch the games. Dats and company put him in handcuffs.

How does it seem ignorant? If he's as great as you say he is, he doesn't get handcuffed like he did. Forced him to the perimeter, prevented opening passing lanes, I could go on and on. He wasn't even on the ice at the end of games taking face-offs.

So what you're telling me is, that, when the competition heightens, he can't handle it and becomes a shell of himself? Is that what you are telling me? He can go off against the Flyers and the Caps and the Canes, but as soon as he faces a competent defense, the "greatest playoff performer of his era" could not do a damn thing. Doesn't seem all that great to me.

Or or or, we can just concede that he had a bad series? I know it's hard for you to admit to yourself that the "greatest playoff performer of his era" faltered and didn't live up to his title, but everyone has a bad series. He still killed that entire playoffs with 31 points and most importantly, the Cup. One bad series doesn't take away from it.

Once again, Crosby put up a PPG against a better and healthier Detroit team in 07-08.

 

[Varan]

Once again, Crosby put up a PPG against a better and healthier Detroit team in 07-08.

Teams are different year to year so do players. The entire discussion you were having with others regarded 2009, not 2008.

 

[Varan]

Considering PIT scored 2 goals in the minutes he played in those three games, can’t say this is surprising. But neat narrative!

So he gets phantom points now or something? Come on man this is ridiculous

 

[Gurglesons]

Teams are different year to year so do players. The entire discussion you were having with others regarded 2009, not 2008.

No. The entire discussion we are having is about Crosby’s first five years versus McDavid’s first five years and the fact Crosby led a team of equal talent to two consecutive Stanley Cup Finals because he is the better player and you said “yeah, but he only scored 3 points in a SCF, durr.” And then tried to compare it to McDavid having a poor playoff in his first try when Sid had 31 points in the run he had 3 points in the SCF.

Crosby is only topped by Forsberg, Lemieux, Gretzky, Kurri, Bossy and Messier in terms of players that played 100+ games in terms of playoff PPG. This idea that he’s some type of inconsistent player when it comes to the later rounds is absolutely asinine and such a reveal of who to take seriously when it comes to Sid.

 

[Varan]

No. The entire discussion we are having is about Crosby’s first five years versus McDavid’s first five years and the fact Crosby led a team of equal talent to two consecutive Stanley Cup Finals because he is the better player and you said “yeah, but he only scored 3 points in a SCF, durr.” And then tried to compare it to McDavid having a poor playoff in his first try when Sid had 31 points in the run he had 3 points in the SCF.

Crosby is only topped by Forsberg, Lemieux, Gretzky, Kurri and Messier in terms of players that played 100+ games in terms of playoff PPG.

I didn't do any of the above actually lol. I simply said that 3 points in 7 games isn't great like you were saying it was. That's it lol. I was just focused on that statement.

For the record, I voted for Crosby

 

[Varan]

No. The entire discussion we are having is about Crosby’s first five years versus McDavid’s first five years and the fact Crosby led a team of equal talent to two consecutive Stanley Cup Finals because he is the better player and you said “yeah, but he only scored 3 points in a SCF, durr.” And then tried to compare it to McDavid having a poor playoff in his first try when Sid had 31 points in the run he had 3 points in the SCF.

Crosby is only topped by Forsberg, Lemieux, Gretzky, Kurri, Bossy and Messier in terms of players that played 100+ games in terms of playoff PPG. This idea that he’s some type of inconsistent player when it comes to the later rounds is absolutely asinine and such a reveal of who to take seriously when it comes to Sid.

Since you brought it up, there's a drop off in every higher round. I didn't make it up, the numbers show it. That's what inconsistent means.

But that's besides the point

 

[Gurglesons]

Since you brought it up, there's a drop off in every higher round. I didn't make it up, the numbers show it. That's what inconsistent means.

But that's besides the point

Most players since 05-06 see their PPG reduces from the CF to the SCF in terms of total PPG. The only exceptions are players that have been in one CF and one SCF and Justin Williams.

I'm glad you didn't take basic statistics.

The only player I believe that has both a larger sample size in the CF and PPG than Sid is Kane in the CF and Kane has a higher PPG. There are no players that have played in multiple SCFs that are PPG.

Among his peers, Crosby is amongst the best PPG in terms of rounds and has the largest sample of any player besides Kane in the CF.

Anyone that thinks Crosby has been inconsistent in the playoffs is frankly just dumb at numbers. He has arguably been the most consistent playoff performer since Forsberg and doesn't have the injury excuse to fall back on.

 

[Oddbob]

I think McDavid aside from playoffs. Crosby had a much better situation in that regard than McDavid has even sniffed yet, which isn't something that elevates Crosby as they aren't on even ground here. If the Oilers had a real team, I am more than confident that McDavid offensively at the very least will have no trouble driving the Oilers strong. Problem is the Oilers may never get there, as they look to suck again this year, with terrible goalies and getting no better defensively.

 

[Varan]

Most players since 05-06 see their PPG reduces from the CF to the SCF in terms of total PPG. The only exceptions are players that have been in one CF and one SCF and Justin Williams.

I'm glad you didn't take basic statistics.

The only player I believe that has both a larger sample size in the CF and PPG than Sid is Kane in the CF and Kane has a higher PPG. There are no players that have played in multiple SCFs that are PPG.

Among his peers, Crosby is amongst the best PPG in terms of rounds and has the largest sample of any player besides Kane in the CF.

Anyone that thinks Crosby has been inconsistent in the playoffs is frankly just dumb at numbers. He has arguably been the most consistent playoff performer since Forsberg and doesn't have the injury excuse to fall back on.

Crosby has been consistent year to year there's no doubt about that. He hasn't had a "bad" playoffs other than 2016. Other than that one off year, he's been his normal self.

That being said, it is true that outside of J. Williams and Kane, players' production fall as the rounds go higher, the only issue with Crosby is that, while there isn't a huge drop off from rounds 2-4 (small drops in PPG similar relative to his peers), the drop off from round 1 to 2 is gigantic. I don't know why that is the case but it is.

 

[Gurglesons]

Crosby has been consistent year to year there's no doubt about that. He hasn't had a "bad" playoffs other than 2016. Other than that one off year, he's been his normal self.

That being said, it is true that outside of J. Williams and Kane, players' production fall as the rounds go higher, the only issue with Crosby is that, while there isn't a huge drop off from rounds 2-4 (small drops in PPG similar relative to his peers), the drop off from round 1 to 2 is gigantic. I don't know why that is the case but it is.

Kane’s production falls off from CF to SCF.

The case is he has played a shit ton of playoff games compared to any of his contemporaries and the fact he has made multiple runs at different points in his career.

 

[Thenameless]

Don't really see a difference between the Pens teams between 05-06 - 09-10 and the Oilers teams that McDavid has been a part of. Crosby was leading his team along with his partner and crime to contention status year in and year out for 3 of his first five years, won a cup and put up two Smythe worthy runs on top of all the personal accolades. McDavid has the better regular season success individually, but that likely largely comes from the fact his team sucked so much he was the only focus for most of their seasons.

Sid quite easily imo.

I'm in the Crosby camp too, but we also can't compare the teams. It's more than just Crosby and Malkin versus McDavid and Draisatl. Marc Andre Fleury is way better than anything the Oilers ever had in net. Letang, while not a Pronger or Lidstrom, is a very good defenseman. And Jordan Staal was an exceptional third line center. Not to mention that the rest of the Penguins' support players were better too.

Crosby was a bit better than McDavid overall in their first five years, but the Penguins were way better than the Oilers too.

 

[Gurglesons]

I'm in the Crosby camp too, but we also can't compare the teams. It's more than just Crosby and Malkin versus McDavid and Draisatl. Marc Andre Fleury is way better than anything the Oilers ever had in net. Letang, while not a Pronger or Lidstrom, is a very good defenseman. And Jordan Staal was an exceptional third line center. Not to mention that the rest of the Penguins' support players were better too.

Crosby was a bit better than McDavid overall in their first five years, but the Penguins were way better than the Oilers too.

This is revisionist. Fleury had the 18th best SV% for goalies that played 150+ games from 2005-06 to 09-10.

Letang had 89 points over those five seasons.

Jordan Staal was a great third wheel, but RNH is remarkably better production wise.

I'll buy the Gonchar argument. But for the majority of Sid's first five years. Mark Eaton, Brooks Oprik and Melichar were playing major minutes.

The reality is that PIT was a better team than EDM because Crosby and Malkin were better players.

 

[bambamcam4ever]

I'm in the Crosby camp too, but we also can't compare the teams. It's more than just Crosby and Malkin versus McDavid and Draisatl. Marc Andre Fleury is way better than anything the Oilers ever had in net. Letang, while not a Pronger or Lidstrom, is a very good defenseman. And Jordan Staal was an exceptional third line center. Not to mention that the rest of the Penguins' support players were better too.

Crosby was a bit better than McDavid overall in their first five years, but the Penguins were way better than the Oilers too.

Oilers have RNH as a third line center, who is a better player than Staal was.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

I'm in the Crosby camp too, but we also can't compare the teams. It's more than just Crosby and Malkin versus McDavid and Draisatl. Marc Andre Fleury is way better than anything the Oilers ever had in net. Letang, while not a Pronger or Lidstrom, is a very good defenseman. And Jordan Staal was an exceptional third line center. Not to mention that the rest of the Penguins' support players were better too.

Crosby was a bit better than McDavid overall in their first five years, but the Penguins were way better than the Oilers too.

Why does this site suddenly act like Fleury's this elite goalie? Prior to him going to Vegas and having that tremendous run with them, when he was still a Pen this site relished in laughing at how much he melted down every playoffs. Now suddenly he's this huge edge for Crosby and the Pens in player comparisons.

 

[Varan]

Why does this site suddenly act like Fleury's this elite goalie? Prior to him going to Vegas and having that tremendous run with them, when he was still a Pen this site relished in laughing at how much he melted down every playoffs. Now suddenly he's this huge edge for Crosby and the Pens in player comparisons.

I never really understood where this Fleury hate comes from, mainly from Penguins fans. The man helped you win 3 titles and got you to 4 finals. How is that not elite? Constantly I see people bashing him yet here he is going to final after final even on different teams, carrying an expansion team, yet all I hear was “he got lit up in the finals”. Does he have to score as well? Play defense? It seems like you guys are so hyper focused on his “bad” series to the point where you forget all the good series and moments he has had over his career. It literally seems like spoiled behaviour at this point because you guys had a 7 year period where you didn’t make the Finals. I mean come on

The man is one of the most consistent goalies ever and will have a well-deserved spot in the HHOF. Give the man his flowers. 5 Finals appearances, winning 3 of them. The man is elite, period.

 

[Gurglesons]

I never really understood where this Fleury hate comes from, mainly from Penguins fans. The man helped you win 3 titles and got you to 4 finals. How is that not elite? Constantly I see people bashing him yet here he is going to final after final even on different teams, carrying an expansion team, yet all I hear was “he got lit up in the finals”. Does he have to score as well? Play defense? It seems like you guys are so hyper focused on his “bad” series to the point where you forget all the good series and moments he has had over his career. It literally seems like spoiled behaviour at this point because you guys had a 7 year period where you didn’t make the Finals. I mean come on

The man is one of the most consistent goalies ever and will have a well-deserved spot in the HHOF. Give the man his flowers. 5 Finals appearances, winning 3 of them. The man is elite, period.

Probably because after 08-09 he lost his gig to another player every time we made it to an ECF and he had a career SV% of .908 in the playoffs and was a top three reason that Crosby and Malkin failed in their prime from 2010-2014. Fleury was a bottom 20 goalie for most his career in PIT and was the worst or amongst the worst playoff goalies in the league many of the years too.

You’re really revealing yourself to be either very uneducated about the Penguins franchise during the Sid / Malkin era or your just extremely biased against PIT fans.

 

[Gurglesons]

NHL Stats - Penguins from 05-06 to 09-10

NHL Stats - Oilers from 15-16 to 19-20

I really don’t see the huge discrepancies here. McDavid's Oilers got nearly an entire full season out of Draisital that Crosby's Pens didn't with Malkin. RNH produced at a better rate than Staal. Obviously as we've indicated Gonchar was better than either Klefbom or Nurse. But, in reality the most frequently used defenseman during Crosby's first five years was Brooks Orpik. After Gonchar you have Rob Scuderi, Ryan Whitney, Letang and Mark Eaton who were all decent enough defensemen, but I fail to see the huge difference between that and Benning, Sekera, Russell, and Larsson. Following the big three forwards you have Malone, Talbot, and Kennedy versus Lucic, Kassian and Letestu which I think is a completely fair comparison. I think the fact McD's Oilers got nearly a full year out of Drai versus Crosby's Pens with Malkin and RNH being a more offensive threat than RNH makes the forward situation weigh in the Oilers favor versus the defense weighing in PITs. This is without even going into the fact that while the Pens had players like Hossa, Guerin, Kunitz, Recchi playing with Sid they largely played around the same or less the amount of games as similar comparable in Hall, Eberle, Maroon, and Yamamoto.

NHL Stats - Penguins goaltending - Average League SV% 907. MAF 907%

NHL Stats - Oilers goaltending - Average League SV% 912. Talbot 912%. Koskinen 911%

Struggling to see the huge discrepancies between the goaltending here. Unless you want to go down the fact that MAF lost his job to Conklin and Johnson for a couple week stretches.

 

[Varan]

Probably because after 08-09 he lost his gig to another player every time we made it to an ECF and he had a career SV% of .908 in the playoffs and was a top three reason that Crosby and Malkin failed in their prime from 2010-2014. Fleury was a bottom 20 goalie for most his career in PIT and was the worst or amongst the worst playoff goalies in the league many of the years too.

You’re really revealing yourself to be either very uneducated about the Penguins franchise during the Sid / Malkin era or your just extremely biased against PIT fans.

He was a top-3 reason the Pens failed during the primes of Sid/Geno, then the first two must be Sid and Geno themselves right? They’re at the height of their powers but it seems like Pens fans do everything in their power to put the blame on the rest of the team. If you get all of the credit when you win you deserve the lion share of the blame when you lose.

I’m only looking at things from a distance but 2 things are for sure:

1. Crosby and Malkin get the LeBron treatment. When they win, they’re just amazing, the 2 best players in the league, best duo ever, etc. When they lose, blame the teammates, coaches, GMs, etc. It’s hilarious. Blow a 3-1 lead to NY, it’s MAF’s fault, get swept by BOS, it’s MAF’s fault, lose in the first round 3 other times, it’s MAF’s fault. Lose to MTL in a home game 7, blame MAF. It’s ridiculous.

2. You guys are a spoiled franchise where anything but a Finals is a lost season. God forbid your TWO generational superstars can’t get you to the promised Finals even though you have been there 4 times (or even out of the first round), let’s just blame the goalie and whoever else.

 

[Gurglesons]

He was a top-3 reason the Pens failed during the primes of Sid/Geno, then the first two must be Sid and Geno themselves right? They’re at the height of their powers but it seems like Pens fans do everything in their power to put the blame on the rest of the team. If you get all of the credit when you win you deserve the lion share of the blame when you lose.

I’m only looking at things from a distance but 2 things are for sure:

1. Crosby and Malkin get the LeBron treatment. When they win, they’re just amazing, best players in the league. When they lose, blame the teammates, coaches, GMs, etc. It’s hilarious. Blow a 3-1 lead to NY, it’s MAF’s fault, get swept by BOS, it’s MAF’s fault, lose in the first round 3 other times, it’s MAF’s fault. Lose to MTL in a home game 7, blame MAF. It’s ridiculous.

09-10 is a write off as no team has gone beyond R2 after a back to back final appearance since the Isles. But, Fleury was definitely a huge reason there. He was the worst goalie in the playoffs in 09-10.

2013 is a series every Penguins fan will say Crosby and Malkin were a huge issue.

2014 was largely the final gasp of a team that was simply not good enough to win and
Got hit with huge cap issues given Letang and Malkin’s raise.

2. You guys are a spoiled franchise where anything but a Finals is a lost season. God forbid your TWO generational superstars can’t get you to the promised Finals (or even out of the first round), let’s just blame the goalie and whoever else.

Tell us how you feel.

 

[JasonRoseEh]

It's McDavid and the playoffs is a team thing.

 

[Varan]

09-10 is a write off as no team has gone beyond R2 after a back to back final appearance since the Isles. But, Fleury was definitely a huge reason there. He was the worst goalie in the playoffs in 09-10.

2013 is a series every Penguins fan will say Crosby and Malkin were a huge issue.

2014 was largely the final gasp of a team that was simply not good enough to win and
Got hit with huge cap issues given Letang and Malkin’s raise.



Tell us how you feel.

2012 and 2015 happened as well

 

[Voight]

No there are plenty of playoffs you could blame on Crosby. 2012-13 and 2013-14 comes to my mind.

Again 3 points in a finals is horrid for someone that certain people on here claim is the 5th best or 7th best or whatever best of all time.

 

[wetcoast]

I asked you "If you wanna say that they’re just amazing and many would struggle that’s fine, but it is also an excuse in a way"

You didn't address this at all

Sure I did as I'm the one who brought up what the Detroit Red wings thought which was Crosby was the player they targeted in both of those series not Malkin.

you call it an excuse I call it context.

Let's put it another way where do you place Lidstrom, zetts and Datsyuk circa 08 and 09 playoffs and where do you place Crosby's wingers Kunitz and Guerin?

We saw that Crosby faired better when Hossa was there in 08 and Malkin didn't do much right?

But this sideshow has gone on a bit too long Crosby first 5 years was elite (arguably the best player in the playoffs in that stretch) while McDavid isn't even close.

 

[Gurglesons]

2012 and 2015 happened as well

Not really sure what else Crosby was supposed to do in those two series..?

 

[Gurglesons]

Again 3 points in a finals is horrid for someone that certain people on here claim is the 5th best or 7th best or whatever best of all time.

Go take a look at Gordie Howe's SCFs.

Bobby Hull had two PPG SCFs and one under. So Sid is punished because of his additional SCF?

Beliveau had SCFs under PPG. Weird how these all time greats all have similar problems because they played in and out of their prime in the playoffs, just like Sid. TBH, we have very little reference of a player of Sid's caliber playing in so many SCFs in the modern era.

The only players comparably are like the two big stars on Detroit and Colorado. Federov and Yzerman have a similar production in their SCFs although Federov has one more PPG SCF. Sakic has two PPG. But he has the advantage of only being in two SCFs.