Better player during their first 5 years: Crosby or McDavid?

[Gurglesons]

I don't even know what you mean

Every player besides Gretzky and Lemieux has had playoff series like Crosby has. It is such a dumb argument to cherry pick games and series with players like Crosby who've played so many playoff games.

There are three players ahead of Crosby that have a better PPG during the playoffs and have played an equal amount of games Gretzky, Messier and Kurri. That's it. If Crosby is playing in a playoff game. Chances are he is going to have a point.

He's the best playoff player in the modern era and this idea that he just "picked up points in the 1st round" is just seriously the stupidest narrative anyone has ever come up with and is such an obvious troll job.

 

[Varan]

Every player besides Gretzky and Lemieux has had playoff series like Crosby has. It is such a dumb argument to cherry pick games and series with players like Crosby who've played so many playoff games.

There are three players ahead of Crosby that have a better PPG during the playoffs and have played an equal amount of games Gretzky, Messier and Kurri. That's it.

I'm getting tired of this. My whole point is that they are not absolved from criticism. I have said that he is one of the most consistent players ever, he doesn't really have bad series outside from a few which is normal for everyone. But when he does have those bad series, he isn't criticized at all. That's my whole issue.

 

[Gurglesons]

I'm getting tired of this. My whole point is that they are not absolved from criticism. I have said that he is one of the most consistent players ever, he doesn't really have bad series outside from a few which is normal for everyone. But when he does have those bad series, he isn't criticized at all. That's my whole issue.

I mean, I think Sidney Crosby has in reality had two bad series in his entire playoff history. ECF 2013 and R1 2019 and I think most Penguins fans criticize him. But even then, he was low on the reasons why they they lost those series and considering he has been an absolute force for you know.. 15 years. I guess it's not really fair to criticize him for being human twice.

The issue I think we are running into is that you are blaming Crosby for having a bad series when he isn't a PPG. When multiple greats were not PPG in series.

It's just a petty narrative. A player only scoring in the first half of a series doesn't make it a "bad series". That's called losing a series. If a player is dominating the entire series, chance is they won it..

 

[Varan]

I mean, I think Sidney Crosby has in reality had two bad series in his entire playoff history. ECF 2013 and R1 2019 and I think most Penguins fans criticize him. But even then, he was low on the reasons why they they lost those series and considering he has been an absolute force for you know.. 15 years. I guess it's not really fair to criticize him for being human twice.

The issue I think we are running into is that you are blaming Crosby for having a bad series when he isn't a PPG. When multiple greats were not PPG in series.

It's just a petty narrative.

Oh I agree that he barely has had bad series. It's not about PPG, but he just looked out of it in those series. He has had 3 really bad series series in his career imo, where not only he wasn't producing, but he was almost a non-factor. 2013 v BOS, 2014 v NY, 2019 v NYI. That's basically it

 

[Gurglesons]

Oh I agree that he barely has had bad series. It's not about PPG, but he just looked out of it in those series. He has had 3 really bad series series in his career imo, where not only he wasn't producing, but he was almost a non-factor. 2013 v BOS, 2014 v NY, 2019 v NYI. That's basically it

Neat. Glad we've established Crosby had around 10 bad games throughout a nearly 200 game sample. This is very important.

 

[Varan]

Neat. Glad we've established Crosby had around 10 bad games throughout a nearly 200 game sample. This is very important.

Did you miss my entire point or are you just intentionally being arrogant

I'm done in this thread.

Cheers g

 

[Gurglesons]

Did you miss my entire point or are you just intentionally being arrogant

I'm done in this thread.

Cheers g

You have no valid point.

 

[Varan]

You have no valid point.

Crosby and Malkin never being criticized even when they should be is very valid

It's whatever, we're getting no where here

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Crosby and Malkin never being criticized even when they should be is very valid

I literally said I hold Crosby accountable for two of those recent playoff performances. Yet you keep going back to "never being criticized". You literally want people to essentially put all the blame on Crosby any time the Pens don't win the Cup and if they don't do that, you say, "See? No one ever holds him accountable".

You've even devolved into breaking down games or series in a given playoff year to "blame" Crosby, even if he was good as a whole that playoff run. It's like saying he wasn't good in the 2009 playoffs because he struggled to produce versus Detroit and ignoring how he put up huge totals overall that run.

Bottom line is the above quote is 100% incorrect. It's incorrect because I've literally outlined in my previous post which playoffs I feel Crosby should have been much better in and was a factor in his team not going farther. Yet you keep on repeating it over and over just to try and fabricate this idea that all Penguins fans literally NEVER criticize Crosby or Malkin's performances.

 

[Varan]

I literally said I hold Crosby accountable for two of those recent playoff performances. Yet you keep going back to "never being criticized". You literally want people to essentially put all the blame on Crosby any time the Pens don't win the Cup and if they don't do that, you say, "See? No one ever holds him accountable".

You've even devolved into breaking down games or series in a given playoff year to "blame" Crosby, even if he was good as a whole that playoff run. It's like saying he wasn't good in the 2009 playoffs because he struggled to produce versus Detroit and ignoring how he put up huge totals overall that run.

Bottom line is the above quote is 100% incorrect. It's incorrect because I've literally outlined in my previous post which playoffs I feel Crosby should have been much better in and was a factor in his team not going farther. Yet you keep on repeating it over and over just to try and fabricate this idea that all Penguins fans literally NEVER criticize Crosby or Malkin's performances.

I don't expect Crosby to win the title every single year. That's ridiculous. Anyway, like you said, you're only one person, you don't speak for a whole fan base. 1 person holding their player accountable after constantly being berated about it and you somehow justify the issue? Doesn't work like that.

You have yet to answer my question that I've asked multiple times: If you get all the credit and praise (best player in the league, best duo ever, etc.) when you win, should you not deserve the lion share of the blame when you lose? If that is not the case with Crosby & Malkin, then you got me.

You've even devolved into breaking down games or series in a given playoff year to "blame" Crosby, even if he was good as a whole that playoff run. It's like saying he wasn't good in the 2009 playoffs because he struggled to produce versus Detroit and ignoring how he put up huge totals overall that run.

What? You literally did the same with Fleury regarding his 2009 run to show his flaws, yet I cannot do the same with Crosby?

 

[Gurglesons]

I don't expect Crosby to win the title every single year. That's ridiculous. Anyway, like you said, you're only one person, you don't speak for a whole fan base. 1 person holding their player accountable after constantly being berated about it and you somehow justify the issue? Doesn't work like that.

You have yet to answer my question that I've asked multiple times: If you get all the credit and praise (best player in the league, best duo ever, etc.) when you win, should you not deserve the lion share of the blame when you lose? If that is not the case with Crosby & Malkin, then you got me.

What? You literally did the same with Fleury regarding his 2009 run to show his flaws, yet I cannot do the same with Crosby?

When you are basically the 2nd and 3rd best players at worst in the playoffs and regular season over the time period the other player is in the bottom of the league in terms of his performance. No, you shouldn't.

During Malkin and Crosby's prime Fleury was horrible to the point he lost his job for a stretch to Conklin, Brent Johnson and 35 year old Vokoun. Malkin and Crosby were doing everything you expected them to do, and Fleury was not even league average.

I guess it is just a coincidence that once the major issues the fanbase bitched about like relying on youth, firing their coach, playing a goaltender that gave them a chance, and adding legitimate depth pieces that the Penguins won back to back.

 

[dm1371]

Close call but I'd say Crosby. Dude literally carried the Penguins on his shoulders and turned them into a winning team. Also broke the 100 point mark in his ROOKIE season with 102, outscoring 2nd best on the team by 44 points. Again this probably comes down to which player has brought the most to his team. Both are (different) phenomenal players, I just find it hard to argue against what Crosby has done.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

I don't expect Crosby to win the title every single year. That's ridiculous. Anyway, like you said, you're only one person, you don't speak for a whole fan base. 1 person holding their player accountable after constantly being berated about it and you somehow justify the issue? Doesn't work like that.

So now you speak for all other Penguins fans? Everyone EXCEPT me never holds Crosby accountable for a poor performance? Now you're being ridiculous and you certainly have never read the Pens forum after early Penguin exits.

You have yet to answer my question that I've asked multiple times: If you get all the credit and praise (best player in the league, best duo ever, etc.) when you win, should you not deserve the lion share of the blame when you lose? If that is not the case with Crosby & Malkin, then you got me.

If your play is a big part of winning, yes you deserve the bulk of the praise for winning. But if your play is not the biggest reason you lose, you don't automatically get blame for the loss.

Like, that doesn't even make sense. You praise or criticize a player based on his impact, not on your idiotic scale of "well if you praise him when you win, you have to blame him when you lose". That so beyond silly that I don't even know what else to say about that line of thinking.

What? You literally did the same with Fleury regarding his 2009 run to show his flaws, yet I cannot do the same with Crosby?

Uh? No I didn't. I said look at Fleury's entire playoff run to judge whether he was "great" in 2009, not just one series. You're the one focused on one series. And that's exactly what I'm saying about Crosby (or Malkin or Ovechkin or McDavid or whoever). Don't judge based on ONE series or ONE game instead of the WHOLE (ie. the entire playoff run).

I've been consistent about that every single time. You're the one that keeps on trying to pick apart each series or each game to dog Crosby's performance.

 

[Varan]

So now you speak for all other Penguins fans? Everyone EXCEPT me never holds Crosby accountable for a poor performance? Now you're being ridiculous and you certainly have never read the Pens forum after early Penguin exits.

I don't speak for anyone except myself. I've seen it for years on this forum. Crosby and Malkin fans never have a bad thing to say about their players. It's always fans of other teams that bring up their shortcomings, and then you guys get defensive.

If your play is a big part of winning, yes you deserve the bulk of the praise for winning. But if your play is not the biggest reason you lose, you don't automatically get blame for the loss.

Like, that doesn't even make sense. You praise or criticize a player based on his impact, not on your idiotic scale of "well if you praise him when you win, you have to blame him when you lose". That so beyond silly that I don't even know what else to say about that line of thinking.

It doesn't make sense to praise them when they win and have your mouth shut when they lose.

Uh? No I didn't. I said look at Fleury's entire playoff run to judge whether he was "great" in 2009, not just one series. You're the one focused on one series. And that's exactly what I'm saying about Crosby (or Malkin or Ovechkin or McDavid or whoever). Don't judge based on ONE series or ONE game instead of the WHOLE (ie. the entire playoff run).

Yeah and I did that, I brought up his save percentages and you're like "go look at his game by game performance in the Philly series" yet when I did that for Crosby, "you can't judge him based off of one series" Like what?

I've been consistent about that every single time. You're the one that keeps on trying to pick apart each series or each game to dog Crosby's performance.

So holding people accountable is somehow trying to 'dog' him. Got it.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

I don't speak for anyone except myself. I've seen it for years on this forum. Crosby and Malkin fans never have a bad thing to say about their players. It's always fans of other teams that bring up their shortcomings, and then you guys get defensive.

No, it's when fans get on their case for the dumbest of things or blame them for series losses when they play well that Penguins fans defend them.

Don't act like that's not the case for all teams. If someone questions Ovechkin's lack of playoff success out of 2018, don't for a single second act like Capitals fans won't swarm the thread to point out all the reason the Caps lost that had nothing to do with Ovechkin's performance.

It doesn't make sense to praise them when they win and have your mouth shut when they lose.

Of course. It makes more sense to blame players for a loss even if they play well and it was some other reason the team lost. That makes *much* more sense to do.

Yeah and I did that, I brought up his save percentages and you're like "go look at his game by game performance in the Philly series" yet when I did that for Crosby, "you can't judge him based off of one series" Like what?

You're struggling with context. If the discussion is "Fleury was great in such and such round", then breaking down his game-by-game performance makes sense. If the discussion is "Fleury was great in the 2009 playoffs as a whole", then looking at the entire playoffs and not just 1 round makes sense.

The problem you're having is one size fits all. Any time I've broken down Fleury's performance by game or by series has ONLY been when you insist he had a strong series. But if the discussion is whether or not Fleury (or Crosby or Ovechkin or whoever) had a great PLAYOFFS, then fixating on one series or batch of games doesn't make sense.

Do you get the difference now?

So holding people accountable is somehow trying to 'dog' him. Got it.

Holding a player accountable when they play well is stupid. I don't know why you keep insisting it makes sense.

If Ovechkin scores 10 goals in 5 games (exaggerated example), but the Caps still somehow lose that series 4 games to 1, it makes ZERO sense to hold Ovechkin accountable for the loss just because Ovechkin gets praised when the Caps win. Yet that's essentially what you're arguing. Crosby and Malkin should be held accountable for a series loss even when they play well, all because they get praise when the Pens win.

 

[Midnight Judges]

Close call but I'd say Crosby. Dude literally carried the Penguins on his shoulders and turned them into a winning team.

In the past 15 years, the Penguins put up their best goal differential and won the most games in the season where Crosby played only 22 games.

 

[Varan]

No, it's when fans get on their case for the dumbest of things or blame them for series losses when they play well that Penguins fans defend them.
Don't act like that's not the case for all teams. If someone questions Ovechkin's lack of playoff success out of 2018, don't for a single second act like Capitals fans won't swarm the thread to point out all the reason the Caps lost that had nothing to do with Ovechkin's performance.

It doesn't stop the doubters pre-2018 who recognized OV's point/goal totals and the fact that he has been fine in the playoffs, from asking the question "Is OV good enough to win a title? Can he be a leader? Or is he all flash?

Of course. It makes more sense to blame players for a loss even if they play well and it was some other reason the team lost. That makes *much* more sense to do.

People call LeBron the GOAT when he wins, yet when he loses, he has no teammates, he's an underdog, he had no help, etc., etc. Is it fair then to not hold him accountable through the first 9 years of his career when he didn't win, even though he was putting up great numbers? Numbers =/= escaping blame. This is a mirror image of Ovechkin's career up until he won the Cup. He was great, and more times than not he was not the issue for their consistent playoff exits, but many still questioned him.

I was concerned with the 7 year timeline of the Pens constantly going home after their back to back Finals appearances. Don't you think that, for someone as hyped as Crosby was, who wasn't the best player on his team when they won, it's acceptable to hold him accountable and ask those same questions people asked about OV. "Yeah he puts up points, but what else, is he really THAT great, etc." People were literally arguing Toews > Crosby (LMAO) during the summer of 2015 because he kept winning titles and the Pens (who were seen as supposed to be doing what the Hawks were doing) kept flaming out.

You're struggling with context. If the discussion is "Fleury was great in such and such round", then breaking down his game-by-game performance makes sense. If the discussion is "Fleury was great in the 2009 playoffs as a whole", then looking at the entire playoffs and not just 1 round makes sense.

The problem you're having is one size fits all. Any time I've broken down Fleury's performance by game or by series has ONLY been when you insist he had a strong series. But if the discussion is whether or not Fleury (or Crosby or Ovechkin or whoever) had a great PLAYOFFS, then fixating on one series or batch of games doesn't make sense.

Do you get the difference now?

Yeah, I said that Fleury was great in their 2009 cup run, so that means the entirety of the playoffs. I said outside from one series (in which he got smoked by the best player in the league) he was solid throughout the whole playoffs. But you then fixated on the Philly series game by game as if I was only saying "He was amazing in round 1", but I was not.

Holding a player accountable when they play well is stupid. I don't know why you keep insisting it makes sense.

If Ovechkin scores 10 goals in 5 games (exaggerated example), but the Caps still somehow lose that series 4 games to 1, it makes ZERO sense to hold Ovechkin accountable for the loss just because Ovechkin gets praised when the Caps win. Yet that's essentially what you're arguing. Crosby and Malkin should be held accountable for a series loss even when they play well, all because they get praise when the Pens win.

I spoke about this above, however, I was mainly fixated on his "bad" series.

 

[wetcoast]

Again 3 points in a finals is horrid for someone that certain people on here claim is the 5th best or 7th best or whatever best of all time.

What is horrid is the focus on 7 games instead of the bigger picture.

But let's not look at the fact that Crosby is by far the best playoff point producer post lockout (and the 5 year sample being looked at as well.)and it's not even really close.

 

[BHD]

Good to see the whole "If you only count points from the 1st period of afternoon games, then Crosby doesn't rank that highly in the playoffs" argument is still a thing.

 

[Gurglesons]

It doesn't stop the doubters pre-2018 who recognized OV's point/goal totals and the fact that he has been fine in the playoffs, from asking the question "Is OV good enough to win a title? Can he be a leader? Or is he all flash?
People call LeBron the GOAT when he wins, yet when he loses, he has no teammates, he's an underdog, he had no help, etc., etc. Is it fair then to not hold him accountable through the first 9 years of his career when he didn't win, even though he was putting up great numbers? Numbers =/= escaping blame. This is a mirror image of Ovechkin's career up until he won the Cup. He was great, and more times than not he was not the issue for their consistent playoff exits, but many still questioned him.

I was concerned with the 7 year timeline of the Pens constantly going home after their back to back Finals appearances. Don't you think that, for someone as hyped as Crosby was, who wasn't the best player on his team when they won, it's acceptable to hold him accountable and ask those same questions people asked about OV. "Yeah he puts up points, but what else, is he really THAT great, etc." People were literally arguing Toews > Crosby (LMAO) during the summer of 2015 because he kept winning titles and the Pens (who were seen as supposed to be doing what the Hawks were doing) kept flaming out.
Yeah, I said that Fleury was great in their 2009 cup run, so that means the entirety of the playoffs. I said outside from one series (in which he got smoked by the best player in the league) he was solid throughout the whole playoffs. But you then fixated on the Philly series game by game as if I was only saying "He was amazing in round 1", but I was not.
I spoke about this above, however, I was mainly fixated on his "bad" series.

Crosby was the best player when they won in 2009. He led the team in goals and his ES numbers were way more impressive than Malkins.