Proposal: Best RHD to Edmonton

[Homesick]

Jets offer Stuart. Would want a B prospect or mid level draft pick in return.

You mean the guy that every Jets fan on HF uses as the excuse as to why Troubas advanced stats are poor? No thanks

 

[mondo3]

You mean the guy that every Jets fan on HF uses as the excuse as to why Troubas advanced stats are poor? No thanks

Jet's fans have it backwards. It is Trouba who is holding back Stuart's potential as a #1D.

 

[CantHaveTkachev]

Jet's fans have it backwards. It is Trouba who is holding back Stuart's potential as a #1D.

oh well then...done

 

[Juxtaposer]

Obviously (or evidentially not), twice was a hyperbole, but it boils down to this: Jones has elite offensive potential. Larsson does not. There is exactly one defenseman in the league that can be argued to be a #1D who doesn't have elite or near-elite offense, and that's Marc-Edouard Vlasic, who still was on pace for almost 50 points this season. I think the odds are strongly against Larsson becoming a Vlasic, ergo I don't think he has #1D potential. Meanwhile, Jones has everything going for him. Size, skating, offensive ability, hockey IQ. If he can pull it together, and that is a legitimate question given that he plays under Tortorella, he is a #1D. It's really as simple as that. And if the statement "Larsson doesn't have elite offensive potential" is honestly up for debate, I just don't know what to say.

Not sure I agree with the potential evaluation here (yes, Larsson's getting overhyped, but that's overcorrecting for same), but "He's not all that great and never will be all that great anyways" has definitely been a common refrain among a few testy Oil fans w/r/t Seth Jones ever since the trade was announced.

Many Oilers fans, just like every fanbase, are reasonable in their expectations for Larsson. What I take issue with is people thinking Larsson has barely scratched the surface or something. He's an excellent defensive player with little offense. He'll improve on the merit of being a youngish defenseman, but let's not act like the sky is the limit for this player, as it is with Jones.

However, the overhype on Larsson is still insane. He was voted as the 34th best defenseman in the league over in the polls section. That's absolutely absurd.

But a suspiciously high proportion of Jones detractors happen to be Oilers fans. Which is kinda my point.

 

[ManofSteel55]

Obviously (or evidentially not), twice was a hyperbole, but it boils down to this: Jones has elite offensive potential. Larsson does not. There is exactly one defenseman in the league that can be argued to be a #1D who doesn't have elite or near-elite offense, and that's Marc-Edouard Vlasic, who still was on pace for almost 50 points this season. I think the odds are strongly against Larsson becoming a Vlasic, ergo I don't think he has #1D potential. Meanwhile, Jones has everything going for him. Size, skating, offensive ability, hockey IQ. If he can pull it together, and that is a legitimate question given that he plays under Tortorella, he is a #1D. It's really as simple as that. And if the statement "Larsson doesn't have elite offensive potential" is honestly up for debate, I just don't know what to say.



Many Oilers fans, just like every fanbase, are reasonable in their expectations for Larsson. What I take issue with is people thinking Larsson has barely scratched the surface or something. He's an excellent defensive player with little offense. He'll improve on the merit of being a youngish defenseman, but let's not act like the sky is the limit for this player, as it is with Jones.

However, the overhype on Larsson is still insane. He was voted as the 34th best defenseman in the league over in the polls section. That's absolutely absurd.

But a suspiciously high proportion of Jones detractors happen to be Oilers fans. Which is kinda my point.

The bolded - based on what exactly?

 

[Juxtaposer]

The bolded - based on what exactly?

His 20 points in 41 games with an awful Columbus team, for starters. His >2 shots per game average last year. His high shot-assists (passes that lead to shots) rate, as tracked by someone on twitter, his high involvement in team offense. Oh, and the eye test.

Larsson, pretty much sucks at all of those metrics. Oh, and the eye test.

 

[victor]

His 20 points in 41 games with an awful Columbus team, for starters. His >2 shots per game average last year. His high shot-assists (passes that lead to shots) rate, as tracked by someone on twitter, his high involvement in team offense. Oh, and the eye test.

Larsson, pretty much sucks at all of those metrics. Oh, and the eye test.

Well, Justin Schultz does very well by that metric, and he won a cup this year. Great defender?

Check out Griffin Reinhart, he leads Edmonton.

 

[ManofSteel55]

His 20 points in 41 games with an awful Columbus team, for starters. His >2 shots per game average last year. His high shot-assists (passes that lead to shots) rate, as tracked by someone on twitter, his high involvement in team offense. Oh, and the eye test.

Larsson, pretty much sucks at all of those metrics. Oh, and the eye test.

So basic stats and a good pass to shot ratio speak good to Jones. Don't mask that as any more than "points". I won't argue though, I like Seth Jones a lot as a player, I'm not going to run his game down at all. I'm more wondering what makes Larsson have "less potential".

Your argument seems to come down to points. Which would be fine if Larsson didn't have such a low amount of offensive zone starts while playing for I believe the lowest scoring team in the NHL last year. Next to no powerplay time. Next to no offensive zone starts. He was used as a pure shutdown defenseman and hasn't been given the opportunity to produce like Jones has. I'd like to see Jones put up 20 points in 41 games under those conditions. I'd also be interested to see what Larsson could do given the prime producing ice time that Jones has received in Columbus.

And as per the "eye test" regarding Larsson's offensive capabilities, I'll take the word of Devils fans over yours, and they were pretty much all in agreement that he has the skills to increase his numbers drastically if put in the situation to do so.

 

[Homesick]

His 20 points in 41 games with an awful Columbus team, for starters. His >2 shots per game average last year. His high shot-assists (passes that lead to shots) rate, as tracked by someone on twitter, his high involvement in team offense. Oh, and the eye test.

Larsson, pretty much sucks at all of those metrics. Oh, and the eye test.

Blah blah blah. Sam Gagner had 8 points in one game, and Justin Schultz had 27 points in 48 games for an even worse Oilers team. See how small sample sizes are stupid to try to measure a players ability?

 

[victor]

So basic stats and a good pass to shot ratio speak good to Jones. Don't mask that as any more than "points". I won't argue though, I like Seth Jones a lot as a player, I'm not going to run his game down at all. I'm more wondering what makes Larsson have "less potential".

Your argument seems to come down to points. Which would be fine if Larsson didn't have such a low amount of offensive zone starts while playing for I believe the lowest scoring team in the NHL last year. Next to no powerplay time. Next to no offensive zone starts. He was used as a pure shutdown defenseman and hasn't been given the opportunity to produce like Jones has. I'd like to see Jones put up 20 points in 41 games under those conditions. I'd also be interested to see what Larsson could do given the prime producing ice time that Jones has received in Columbus.

And as per the "eye test" regarding Larsson's offensive capabilities, I'll take the word of Devils fans over yours, and they were pretty much all in agreement that he has the skills to increase his numbers drastically if put in the situation to do so.

"Interesting to note that Larsson was the Devils’ top-scoring d-man over those past two seasons despite scoring zero (0) points on the PP both years. Modest enough totals to be sure (146 GP, 6-36-42), but his 0.76 EVP/60 over those two years is a higher rate of production than any Oilers defender except Oscar Klefbom. This despite playing on the low-scoring Devils, who lest we forget finished 30th and last in the NHL in goals for this past season with a measly 182 tallies." - Bruce McCurdy - CoH

In those two seasons, Larsson played 274:20 on the penalty kill, 13:53 on the powerplay, and 1557:34 at even strength. He scored 146gp - 6g - 36a - 42pts.

With such severe defensive zone starts for Larsson, and looking at how much time was spent on the PK (14% of minutes,) and little on the PP (<1%) how did he lead his team?

 

[Juxtaposer]

So basic stats and a good pass to shot ratio speak good to Jones. Don't mask that as any more than "points". I won't argue though, I like Seth Jones a lot as a player, I'm not going to run his game down at all. I'm more wondering what makes Larsson have "less potential".

Your argument seems to come down to points. Which would be fine if Larsson didn't have such a low amount of offensive zone starts while playing for I believe the lowest scoring team in the NHL last year. Next to no powerplay time. Next to no offensive zone starts. He was used as a pure shutdown defenseman and hasn't been given the opportunity to produce like Jones has. I'd like to see Jones put up 20 points in 41 games under those conditions. I'd also be interested to see what Larsson could do given the prime producing ice time that Jones has received in Columbus.

And as per the "eye test" regarding Larsson's offensive capabilities, I'll take the word of Devils fans over yours, and they were pretty much all in agreement that he has the skills to increase his numbers drastically if put in the situation to do so.

You're welcome to believe whatever you want. I can see I'm not going to convince you no matter what I say.

Well, Justin Schultz does very well by that metric, and he won a cup this year. Great defender?

Check out Griffin Reinhart, he leads Edmonton.

Blah blah blah. Sam Gagner had 8 points in one game, and Justin Schultz had 27 points in 48 games for an even worse Oilers team. See how small sample sizes are stupid to try to measure a players ability?

You two are arguing that points aren't good evidence. Which is, uh, interesting.

"Interesting to note that Larsson was the Devils’ top-scoring d-man over those past two seasons despite scoring zero (0) points on the PP both years. Modest enough totals to be sure (146 GP, 6-36-42), but his 0.76 EVP/60 over those two years is a higher rate of production than any Oilers defender except Oscar Klefbom. This despite playing on the low-scoring Devils, who lest we forget finished 30th and last in the NHL in goals for this past season with a measly 182 tallies." - Bruce McCurdy - CoH

In those two seasons, Larsson played 274:20 on the penalty kill, 13:53 on the powerplay, and 1557:34 at even strength. He scored 146gp - 6g - 36a - 42pts.

With such severe defensive zone starts for Larsson, and looking at how much time was spent on the PK (14% of minutes,) and little on the PP (<1%) how did he lead his team?

Larsson also played significantly more games than any other NJ defender but Greene... So...

You don't have to convince me Larsson is good defensively.

 

[Homesick]

You two are arguing that points aren't good evidence. Which is, uh, interesting.
.

No, I'm laughing at your simple belief in small sample sizes of point production as a metric for defenseman

Larsson also played significantly more games than any other NJ defender but Greene... So...
You don't have to convince me Larsson is good defensively.

Playing 9-10 games than the 3 other defenseman isnt significant. Plus your evidence is some guy on twitter with 16 followers lol

 

[victor]

You two are arguing that points aren't good evidence. Which is, uh, interesting.

I'm showing that it's not a good metric to judge. In the case of Griffin Reinhart (not an offensive defenseman) it's due to sample size. In the case of Schultz, it's due to being given top minutes with Edmonton's best scorers. What it doesn't show is how he was bleeding goals at the same time.

Larsson also played significantly more games than any other NJ defender but Greene... So...

He's 3rd in points per game in the same period, with Damon Severson and Marek Zidlicky above him. Severenson had 122:40 of PP time, going 72go - 0g - 5a - 5pts.

Larsson's zone deployment is weird, to say the least. I've never seen such severe zone starts, and yet he was able to get the points he did.