- Feb 10, 2010
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Ovechkin was a better playoff player than Crosby in those years. Crosby had more games played because he was on Malkin's team.
Best player in the world: 2018
- Thread starter FrankSidebottom
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Ovechkin was a better playoff player than Crosby in those years. Crosby had more games played because he was on Malkin's team.
Come on.....if you can't see the bias, I don't know what to say. I don't have an issue using goals as a tie breaker, but they certainly shouldn't count that much more. I can see if you have a guy that has 10 goals and 100pts, I would look at someone that has 55 goals and 95 points as better, but I wouldn't go overboard with the goal thing.
My point was description of comparability. I have no issue saying Ovechkin was better in 08/09 than Crosby (regular season)....it's just how it was described.
08/09 - Crosby: 33g, 103pts in 77 games (62 EV pts) compared to OV: 56g, 110pts in 79 games (63 EV pts). This was described as OV being significantly better that year. I agree he was better, but "significantly" better? No, I disagree with that. Also disagree with the comment that Crosby wasn't even a top 10 player that season....he finished 3rd in scoring and 6th in Hart voting, so not top 10 doesn't make sense.
But who cares, I can disagree with that assessment, that's not the issue. The issue is suggesting Crosby wasn't top 10 that year, OV was "significantly" better (fine, I can accept that assessment)....but then turn around and say that in 2017/18, OV and Malkin had basically a similar regular season when the starts were as follows:
OV - 49g, 87pts in 82 games
Malkin - 42g, 98pts in 78 games.
Again, I'd argue that those results are not "similar", but that's not the problem....I can accept someone suggesting they are similar, but how can you say that's similar and then compare two other players, who's stats are closer together and suggest one guy was "significantly" better?
Crosby was a better playoff player in 2018. Ovechkin had more games played because he was on Kuznetsov's team.
jigglysquishy
Registered User
I understand where you're come from, but McDavid's play until the all-star game was still really strong. The Oilers just sucked.
| Time Period | EVP | Primary Points | % Team Offense |
| Pre All-Star Break (49 games) | 40 (3rd in NHL) | 36 (10th in NHL) | 40.6% |
| Post All-Star Break (33 games) | 44 (1st by 10) | 44 (1st by 7 points) | 56.3% |
His 40.6% in the first half of the season still leads the league. Sure, his raw totals don't jump out, but the Oilers were a dumpster fire offensively.
The Oilers were bad in the first half too, but McDavid went supernova in the last 30ish games, reaching a level he only hit again in 2020-21 and 2022-23.
McDavid was still the best player in the first half of the season. It's just he did it on a terrible Oilers team.
TheGoldenJet
Registered User
Similar regular seasons?
Malkin: 3rd in Points/GP, 4th in points
Ovechkin: 15th in Points/GP, 11th in points
Malkin was much better than Ovechkin in the regular season, and it wasn’t even close.
Malkin was injured in the first round of the playoffs after a good start (that’s why he missed 3 games), and ended up one point below PPG in the playoffs, which for him was a very short run of just 9 games. Talk about small sample size, on a clearly injured player no less.
I know it's not as neat and tidy but one could vote for top 5 like the Hart and Norris ect and then someone does a count.
Sure the vote would be public but this is a board to express opinions and discuss things like the OP is asking right.
As for the OP McDavid took over the mantle and has been there ever since.
Sidney the Kidney
One last time
- Jun 29, 2009
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By your standard, Crosby was the better playoff player than Ovechkin in 2018. Ovechkin's entire team just produced around him while Crosby only had Guentzel producing.
Are people really surprised though? It was to be expected and the 3rd post set the stage here for a complete non argument.
Except he didn’t. Kucherov absolutely dominated that season until the end when he took it easy to prepare for the playoffs (in which he was a PPG through three rounds), allowing McDavid to pass him by scoring a bunch of points in meaningless games. He then followed that with the best season anyone had had since Jagr in 1998-99.
If you want to argue that McDavid passed Kucherov after that then that’s at least reasonable given Kuch’s regular season injuries, though I’ll still take the guy who put up postseason numbers rivaled only by the likes of Wayne and Mario in back-to-back championship runs. But to claim that McDavid “took over the mantle and has been there ever since” at this point is nothing short of absurd.
At the end of the season and going into the next one literally no one seriously would have taken Kuch over McDavid to start a team.
Most points, best season and best player in the world are 3 seperate freestanding questions.
Why do you state that as if it’s a fact rather than your opinion? I don’t think it’s a dumb opinion, I can understand someone arguing that even if I disagree…but what’s the point. All of these can be true, Ovechkin 2018 better than Crosby 2017, Crosby best player in 2017, Ovechkin not best player in 2018. 2 big variables here….sifferent seasosn and more players in the league than just those 2.
That said, why do you conclude OV better? Combined stats, etc as follows (reg season + playoffs):
OV 2017/18 - 106gp, 114pts (1.08ppg), Richard, Smythe, Cup, 11th in reg season scoring, 9th in a Hart voting, AS-3
Crosby 2016/17 - 99gp, 116pts (1.17ppg), Richard, Smythe, Cup, 2nd in reg season scoring, 2nd in Hart voting, 10th in Selke voting, AS-2, Lindsay finalist.
He was 13th in points and 13th in PPG. When has any offensive forward been deemed the best when they were not leading in scoring or in PPG?
When has a generational talent not been able to put up league leading point totals regardless of their team?
I would have, and would have been right to do so. Besides, appeal to popularity as I’ve already pointed out is no argument.
So even after Kuch’s historic season the following year you still would have had McDavid as the best player in the world? Despite the fact that Kuch had just scored more points than anyone in decades (not to mention 20 more points than McDavid’s career high) AND was already by then the NHL’s top playoff performer by far over the previous several years? Whether you’re looking at the regular season or the postseason, Kucherov was clearly the best player in the world at that point.
Finally, if you’re arguing that the most points does not equate with the best season - something I actually agree with - then what exactly is the argument for McDavid being the better player despite Kuch’s superior scoring? It certainly isn’t defense or postseason performance/success. Unless you’re counting hype and draft position there’s simply no argument for McDavid being better than Kucherov at that point in their careers.
Video Nasty
Registered User
- Mar 12, 2017
- 5,981
- 10,550
This nonsense again?? I see you’ve slightly altered it from “desperately needing to score more goals” to “desperately needing to perform”, so perhaps our last tumble got through to you a little.
You keep talking about how you didn’t like McDavid that season and it’s completely ridiculous.
He had 10 goals and 25 points in the first 20 games of the season. They were 7-11-2. They scored 50 goals, which means he factored in on 50% of them. He contributed 50% of their offense and 20% of their goals scored, but you want him to do more. Yeah, okay.
The Oilers let up 4 or more goals 8 times in those 20 games and lost all of them. Ala current day, what is scoring a few more goals and some more points going to do to reverse those losses where defense and goaltending melted down over and over?
The Oilers had 3 OT wins during that opening quarter. McDavid scored or assisted on all three. McDavid scored and assisted on 3 straight goals to pull them out of 2-0 hole in Game 20 and give them the lead until Talbot let in 4 goals over the remaining half of the game.
They let up 4 or more in 12 of the next 28 games through the All-Star break. They won 1 of those. They won 1 of those games. They finished up by allowing 4 or more in 11 of their remaining 33 games. Again, when a team lets up 4-8 goals in 40% of their games, it’s going to be a struggle to compile a good record and scoring some more points in the first half isn’t going to reverse any of those results.
And on and on on, if we picked through each and every game of the season.
They had 135 goals through the All-Star break. 2 of those were shootout goals which don’t count (McDavid scored the winner in one of them). That’s 40.6% of their offense. How many of those 12 games that they lost when letting up 4-8 goals are they winning during that stretch where McDavid was PPG and the team went 15-13-1? He slumped from about Christmas to the All-Star break no doubt about it…but again, how many more games do the Oilers really win if he scores even 8 more goals and 15 points during that stretch? They had far far greater issues, as they always seem to.
Only a select few can look at the troubles the Oilers had (and still do after all these years) and not see that there was something else desperately wrong when McDavid potted 26 goals and 54 points over the final 33 games and it only resulted in a 14-16-3 finish.
He ultimately contributed to 47.2% of their offense and scored 18% of their total goals for the season.
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Yes I would have McDavid over Kuch after the 18 season.
I remember at the time the push by some on here for Kuch but his 2 linemates had basically career years/shooting % and at the time it looked like a career year for Kuch and I remember arguing so at the time. (Edit was on my phone and talking about the 18-19 season, in 18 there just isn't the case for Kucherov.
Kuch is a fine offensive player but he was never really in the argument for best player in the world always in the next tier top 3ish at best.
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I think there’s also a difference between a good playoffs and something amazing. Like if Kucherov played like he did in 2020 this season it would be one thing, but going PPG isn’t really swinging the tides much.
What was historic about Kuch’s season the following year other than the fact that league scoring has gone up?
jigglysquishy
Registered User
For whatever it's worth, McDavid outscored Kucherov at even strength in 2019. And had more primary points.
Kucherov's 2019 point lead over McDavid stems from secondary powerplay assists.
Kucherov's 2019 point lead over McDavid stems from secondary powerplay assists.
Senor Catface
Registered User
- Jul 25, 2006
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lol and not related to you being a Lightning fan right?
Yeah, career year for Kuch....so what? I know we are talking about best player and not best season, but let's be real....it basically comes down to best season or it simply gets way to subjective....more than it already is. There really isn't much of an argument for McDavid over Kuch in 2018/19....even if you suggest career year, not really seen as best player.....how would McDavid be seen as best player rep at that point? Kuch was right there close to him the year before (the year before that McDavid certainly wasn't best, so irrelevant). The two seasons combined 2017/18 and 2018/19, Kucherove outscored McDavid.
You use the teammate argument here, but Kucherov outscored McDavid by 12 points and outscored his nearest teammate by 30pts. McDavid only outscored his nearest teammate by 11pts I think.
The last part would be great if each guy only had 1 other team mate but the context is pretty clear to most people and there is no shame being second to McDavid from here on out... it's not just the Art Ross here.
Secondary powerplay assists count for McDavid stats as well....why didn't he get as many?
Agree....no shame being 2nd to McDavid and you can argue either way, I probably was too strong with the "there isn't much of an argument for McDavid" but the stronger argument in my opinion is for Kucherov.
jigglysquishy
Registered User
The primary powerplays that season
Kucherov
Stamkos
Point
Hedman
Miller
McDavid
Draisaitl
RNH
Klefbom
Chiasson
Call it controversial, but I think Hedman is maybe a bit better than Klefbom.
Tampa was outrageously stacked that year and it directly plays into how the point distribution shakes out.
Yes, I get it.....but I simply don't buy the argument. I think it's fine if we are using it as a tiebreaker type thing....but I think Kuch separated himself enough where we really shouldn't get to this level of detail.
Ad hominem attacks are also not a valid argument. I see we have yet another “genius” in this thread.
jigglysquishy
Registered User
Did he though?
They tied in goals. McDavid had higher goals per game.
McDavid had more primary assists and primary points.
McDavid had more even strength points.
It's literally only secondary powerplay points where Kucherov outplayed McDavid.
McPoyle
Start breaking bricks wet nips
Insulting ones intelligence is an ad hominem attack.
Others pointing out your homerism isn't.
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