Best player in the world: 2015

[wetcoast]

So the reigning Hart/Art Ross winner doesn’t get the benefit of the doubt after finishing 7 points behind Crosby….but Crosby gets the benefit of the doubt for something he did 1, 2, even 3 years ago…

I'm not giving guys benefit of the doubt here but looking at everything like team dynamics ect....

Crosby had a much weaker supporting cast and he was captain of a team going places...which is how it turned out.

Sounds about right. By your own standards Thornton should have been the best player in 2007. Crosby simply had the “better year.”

Is that your gotchya moment here?

Like I said production isn't everything although it's a huge part and seriously looking at the 2 stat lines again there isn't some huge edge to Thornton here that some are trying to create.


Here are their 2 seasons lines again

Thornton 163-51-188-239
Crosby 160-75-147-222

Also I appreciate Thornton as the superior playmaker between the 2 guys it's just that Jumbo became predictable and thus less valuable at that point.

 

[GreatGonzo]

Yes 2015 Crosby provided more than just goal scoring to his team that's why I'd take Crosby over Ocechkin for the best player in the world circa 2015.

He was head and shoulders above the apck for the totality of the 2013-2014 to 2014-2015 season he didn't lose his elvel of abilty becasue of the mumps there.

NHL Stats

The official source for NHL Stats including skaters, goalies, teams stats and more.

www.nhl.com

He wasn’t head and shoulders above the pack in 2015 before going down in December. Seguin had 1 point on him with 13 more goals. Voracek was 1 point behind while Stamkos and Malkin were 2 points behind. He wasn’t running away with anything.

 

[GreatGonzo]

I'm not giving guys benefit of the doubt here but looking at everything like team dynamics ect....

Crosby had a much weaker supporting cast and he was captain of a team going places...which is how it turned out.


Is that your gotchya moment here?

Like I said production isn't everything although it's a huge part and seriously looking at the 2 stat lines again there isn't some huge edge to Thornton here that some are trying to create.


Here are their 2 seasons lines again

Thornton 163-51-188-239
Crosby 160-75-147-222

Also I appreciate Thornton as the superior playmaker between the 2 guys it's just that Jumbo became predictable and thus less valuable at that point.

You are the one who isn’t even following your own standards. Also I wouldn’t say Crosbys team was weaker than Thorntons. I have no clue where you’re getting that from. You’re giving Crosby the edge based on how his team performed years later? How does that make sense?

Facts are, Thornton put together another elite seasons with back to back 90+ assists. How “invaluable” he became later on has nothing to do with how he performed those two years.

 

[ijuka]

Huh, people voting for Crosby. He even had a worse season than Ovechkin. No idea where all these votes are coming from.

The skaters were pretty much dreadful across the board, so I feel like it has to be Price.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Huh, people voting for Crosby. He even had a worse season than Ovechkin.

The skaters were pretty much dreadful across the board, so I feel like it has to be Price.

And yet still outscored him

 

[Caser]

I think I understand what people are getting at with best season vs best player. If this year McDavid gets outplayed by MacKinnon and we're asked who the best player in the world is we won't say MacKinnon, we'll still say McDavid despite the better season.

However the problem is 8 years down the line it's really hard to choose who was literally the best player of the world in a particular year because it would require remembering how good every player was not only that year but the years before and after.

It is an interesting question, but what if we imagine MacKinnon scores like 180 points and has a Conn Smythe performance, while McDavid gets "just" 120 with sort of usual playoff performance, wouldn't that be enough to say "Sorry, Connor"? I mean, I think even considering like the best player reputation as a bonus factor there should be some performance level when the other guy is good enough to steal the crown.

 

[Video Nasty]

Man you do now that people can go and look up the stats right?

crosby was elading the NHL in points at the end of November he gets the mumps and then the rest of his season is meh.

Sure hot goal stat wise but he didn't dry up offensively at all

October 9-7-8-15
November 14-2-16-18

December mumps and coming back 11-2-3-5


Sure seeing a player get the mumps and affect him was disappointing to see but he was still an elite player when fully healthy as we have the first 2 months and then the rest of his career after that.

Ovechkin that season was a PPG monster then meh at ES and never had the 2 months of excellence that Crosby did.

I'll take the Crosby mumps season over Ovechkin 8 days a week here.

Price has a case Ovi certainly doesn't.

You realize that someone doesn’t start displaying symptoms of the mumps until at least two weeks after contracting it, right? So no, your timeline doesn’t add up. He was slumping, particularly goal wise well before the mumps. I already mentioned his placement in the points race at various points. In your particular callout, he’s leading Voracek by a measly point in the same number of games through the end of November. Wow. So impressive. He was tied with Seguin and being blown away in goals before he even sat. Wow, we really missed out on something special.

Who the hell is talking about Ovechkin? I’m mentioning the trouble that Crosby had separating himself from mere mortals like Benn, Tavares, Seguin, etc.

And look at you picking and choosing the data. Crosby had 7 goals and 14 points in his first 8 games. He had 18 points through 10 games. 24 through 13 games. That’s from 10/9/14 through 11/8/14, the opening month. Then 2 points in his next 6 games, which takes through 11/22/14, which is when he conceivably contracted mumps. But remember, no symptoms until 2-3 weeks later….seems like he was fine through the next week when he had 7 points in 3 games…

Oops! But he had 3 goose eggs in a row before showing symptoms to make him actually get held out of games and sit.

It’s a very easy timeline to reflect on and see where the truth and bullshit is. Some of you are acting he contracted mumps, had immediate symptoms, and then had it for two months. Lol.

 

[wetcoast]

He wasn’t head and shoulders above the pack in 2015 before going down in December. Seguin had 1 point on him with 13 more goals. Voracek was 1 point behind while Stamkos and Malkin were 2 points behind. He wasn’t running away with anything.

You need to read the post that you are quoting as I specifically wrote this.

NHL Stats

The official source for NHL Stats including skaters, goalies, teams stats and more.

www.nhl.com

Crosby 157-64-124-188
Benn 163-69-97-166

As for the 14-15 I wrote that he was leading the NHL in scoring after 2 months then had that dread full mumps December.

 

[GreatGonzo]

And yet still outscored him

In the words of @wetcoast, it’s not ALL about points…Ovechkin had a 50 goal season, a Hart finalist, A Lindsay finalist, A Rocket… but because he finished 3 points shy of Crosby, he didn’t have the better season?

 

[ijuka]

And yet still outscored him

Ovechkin scored 25 more goals than Crosby, but ok.

In the words of @wetcoast, it’s not ALL about points…Ovechkin had a 50 goal season, a Hart finalist, A Lindsay finalist, A Rocket… but because he finished 3 points shy of Crosby, he didn’t have the better season?

Ovechkin also had 200 more hits than Crosby.

 

[wetcoast]

You are the one who isn’t even following your own standards. Also I wouldn’t say Crosbys team was weaker than Thorntons. I have no clue where you’re getting that from. You’re giving Crosby the edge based on how his team performed years later? How does that make sense?

San Jose had a better supporting cast offensively over that 2 year period that Pittsburg there is very little debate over this.

I'm also saying that the feeling of greatness some had for Crosby at the time turned out to be true much like Bedard currently is destined for greatness, we see flashes of it yet a guy like say Bernier would be ranked as "better than him this instant" but by the end of the year or next year we know how it most likely plays out right?

Facts are, Thornton put together another elite seasons with back to back 90+ assists. How “invaluable” he became later on has nothing to do with how he performed those two years.

Once again I'm talking about the impression someone would have watching both guys over that 2 year span.

 

[GreatGonzo]

You need to read the post that you are quoting as I specifically wrote this.


Crosby 157-64-124-188
Benn 163-69-97-166

As for the 14-15 I wrote that he was leading the NHL in scoring after 2 months then had that dread full mumps December.

Crosby had 2 points on Seguin and Voracek before December hit. Again, he wasn’t “running away” with anything.

I also have no clue why you’re lumping those totals together to compare Benn and Crosby. Crosby is a superior player to Benn, but still lost to him in the scoring race.

San Jose had a better supporting cast offensively over that 2 year period that Pittsburg there is very little debate over this.

I'm also saying that the feeling of greatness some had for Crosby at the time turned out to be true much like Bedard currently is destined for greatness, we see flashes of it yet a guy like say Bernier would be ranked as "better than him this instant" but by the end of the year or next year we know how it most likely plays out right?


Once again I'm talking about the impression someone would have watching both guys over that 2 year span.

How did SJ have the better offensive supporting cast. I would love to hear that from you.

What are you talking about exactly? How does anything you say prove that Crosby was the better player? Because he was “destined for greatness?” And Thornton wasnt? Because of what Crosby went on to accomplish compared to what Thornton didn’t? Your basically using past and present years to dictate your argument and it doesn’t hold up.

 

[ijuka]

We're acting like this was just a bad season by Crosby, even though in 15-16 Crosby also got outscored by Benn.

Crosby was the best in 13-14, sure. But this is 14-15.

 

[GreatGonzo]

We're acting like this was just a bad season by Crosby, even though in 15-16 Crosby also got outscored by Benn.

Crosby was the best in 13-14, sure. But this is 14-15.

You are forgetting, what Crosby did I 2010, and 2011 dictates how you should have voted for him In 2012…while 2013 and 2014 should dictate how you should vote for him in 2015. It’s never what he did THAT season, it’s what he accomplished prior that means the most. Basically, a grace period.

 

[filinski77]

But those ebbs and flows are why the best player might not have the best year. If you played that season over again 1000 times, it’s likely Crosby would be better than 5th more often than not

You could say the same thing about Ovechkin in 2011 after his 3 year peak. Anything is possible - but what happened is what happened.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

It is an interesting question, but what if we imagine MacKinnon scores like 180 points and has a Conn Smythe performance, while McDavid gets "just" 120 with sort of usual playoff performance, wouldn't that be enough to say "Sorry, Connor"? I mean, I think even considering like the best player reputation as a bonus factor there should be some performance level when the other guy is good enough to steal the

You realize that someone doesn’t start displaying symptoms of the mumps until at least two weeks after contracting it, right? So no, your timeline doesn’t add up. He was slumping, particularly goal wise well before the mumps

Who the hell is talking about Ovechkin? I’m mentioning the trouble that Crosby had separating himself from mere mortals like Benn, Tavares, Seguin, etc.

And look at you picking and choosing the data. Crosby had 7 goals and 14 points in his first 8 games. He had 18 points through 10 games. 24 through 13 games. That’s from 10/9/14 through 11/8/14, the opening month. Then 2 points in his next 6 games, which takes through 11/22/14, which is when he conceivably contracted mumps. But remember, no symptoms until 2-3 weeks later….seems like he was fine through the next week when he had 7 points in 3 games…

Oops! But he had 3 goose eggs in a row before showing symptoms to make him actually get held out of games and sit.

It’s a very easy timeline to reflect on and see where the truth and bullshit is. Some of you are acting he contracted mumps, had immediate symptoms, and then had it for two months. Lol.

We're acting like this was just a bad season by Crosby, even though in 15-16 Crosby also got outscored by Benn.

Crosby was the best in 13-14, sure. But this is 14-15.

Yeah finished 2nd in hart voting. 1st team center and winning the Conn Smythe and cup is a f***ing terrible year

 

[ijuka]

Yeah finished 2nd in hart voting. 1st team center and winning the Conn Smythe and cup is a f***ing terrible year

14-15 thread, right? Why are you posting 15-16 accolades?

I'd suggest reading my post again, seems you misunderstood something.

I'm saying that it's not like Crosby's 15-16 season was amazing and that this 14-15 season was an anomaly. This was a permanent transformation - this is when Crosby stopped being anything but just one of the top players.

And by the way, are you flaunting Crosby's 19 points in 24 games and -2 in the playoffs as some argument for why he was the best in the world? Kessel should have won the Conn-Smythe, but Crosby got it because people were pushing the narrative that Crosby, after he stopped being a top offensive player, is some defensive stalwart. And as a career achievement.

But I'm sure we'll have lots of fun talking about that in the 15-16 thread.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

14-15 thread, right? Why are you posting 15-16 accolades?

I'd suggest reading my post again, seems you misunderstood something.

Crosby is capable of being outscored he's nor Gretzky or lemieux. You'd have to be Insane to take bennover Crosby because he scored 5 more points in a 2 year span

 

[GreatGonzo]

Yeah finished 2nd in hart voting. 1st team center and winning the Conn Smythe and cup is a f***ing terrible year

Might want to add context to that smythe. Probably the weakest in recent memory to be fair. I wouldn’t use that as a way to promote Crosby being the better player next poll.

Crosby is capable of being outscored he's nor Gretzky or lemieux. You'd have to be Insane to take bennover Crosby because he scored 5 more points in a 2 year span

Who’s taking Benn over Crosby?

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Might want to add context to that smythe. Probably the weakest in recent memory to be fair. I wouldn’t use that as a way to promote Crosby being the better player next poll.

A Conn Smythe Is a Conn Smythe. And it will be a vocal point when Crosby wins the next poll

 

[filinski77]

Yes 2015 Crosby provided more than just goal scoring to his team that's why I'd take Crosby over Ocechkin for the best player in the world circa 2015.

He was head and shoulders above the pack for the totality of the 2013-2014 to 2014-2015 season he didn't lose his level of ability because of the mumps there.

NHL Stats

The official source for NHL Stats including skaters, goalies, teams stats and more.

www.nhl.com

He provided more than just goal scoring… isn’t saying much because his goal totals were almost HALF of Ovechkin that year. Ovi had one of the most dominant goal scoring years of the last like 30 years that season.

 

[GreatGonzo]

A Conn Smythe Is a Conn Smythe. And it will be a vocal point when Crosby wins the next poll

It will be a very weak point then and actually might work against him. He was hardly better than a 37 year old Thornton.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

It will be a very weak point then and actually might work against him. He was hardly better than a 37 year old Thornton.

We shall see. Almost time for the b2b smythe polls. Whoo hooooo

 

[filinski77]

Those ebs and flows are precisely why the games are played. So you discover who actually is the best and not who people think is the best. It's no different than teams. The Avs were the best team in 2022 even though Tampa came off of back to back cup wins and made the final again. You'd get your ass laughed off the boards if you tried to proclaim the Lightning the best team of the '21-'22 season on the basis of the '19-'20 and '20-'21 seasons.

Great point (by using teams as the example). I don’t get why it’s NOT possible to be the best player in the world for 2 years, not be the best player for the 3rd year, and then be back to the best player by the 4th year.

 

[bambamcam4ever]

Those ebs and flows are precisely why the games are played. So you discover who actually is the best and not who people think is the best. It's no different than teams. The Avs were the best team in 2022 even though Tampa came off of back to back cup wins and made the final again. You'd get your ass laughed off the boards if you tried to proclaim the Lightning the best team of the '21-'22 season on the basis of the '19-'20 and '20-'21 seasons.

The best team doesn't always win. This is a dumb comment.