Best Peak: Gretzky vs Lemieux vs Orr

[KoozNetsOff 92]

Lemieux doesn't belong in the poll because everything he did Gretzky did better, faster, more often, etc. It's between Gretzky and Orr. Voted Gretzky.

 

[authentic]

Lemieux doesn't belong in the poll because everything he did Gretzky did better, faster, more often, etc. It's between Gretzky and Orr. Voted Gretzky.

Somewhat of a disingenuous take when you look at the competition Lemieux dominated in 1992-93 and 1996. Was Gretzky going to be that much better than a peak Lafontaine, Selanne, Mogilny, Lindros, Sakic, Forsberg, Jagr, etc.? Those were faster and more skilled players than Gretzky faced which were mostly Canadians and also goalies and defense were better, this why Lemieux was not only arguably as good but possibly better.

 

[TheStatican]

Gretzky and Orr the 2 best. Metrics and stats can be shoved you know where

No slight to Mario. He just isn't The Great One

I see you and where your coming from... You just can't be the best if you didn't have a sick and snazzy nickname like Gretzky did

Its always Gretzky

Awesome, great chat. You had me convinced at "Its", Master P.


Honestly I'm not sure why you even posted this on the main boards OP? I hope you weren't expecting an actual in depth and serious conversation on the matter. This is nothing more than a popularity contest.

 

[Master P]

I see you and where your coming from... You just can't be the best if you didn't have a sick and snazzy nickname like Gretzky did


Awesome, great chat. You had me convinced at "Its", Master P.


Honestly I'm not sure why you even posted this on the main boards OP? I hope you weren't expecting an actual in depth and serious conversation on the matter. This is nothing more than a popularity contest.

I like to keep it simple.

 

[ijuka]

Gretzky. 205 points. The next in NHL 126.

No one else has ever touched a margin like this. 2.77 vs 1.58 ppg.

 

[bobholly39]

Gretzky.

He had the best peak - as in, if you look at actual results/accomplishments, he's #1. Orr isn't very far, but I do have Gretzky slightly ahead. Lemieux too far back, too much time missed at his peak.

If it's "who you take at their peak" - slightly differnt question - but Gretzky again. The big edge Gretzky has over other two is playoffs. Both Lemieux and Orr are among the best playoff performers ever - but Gretzky was simply better, undispusted #1. It's a differentiator imo. He also had insane consistency.

Highest level of play achieved? ie - "put all 3 players in an equal position/league, fully healthy, who does the best over ~2 years straight?". This is where it gets closer. Lemieux may have an argument, but so do other 2.

In the end I voted Gretzky.

These are the undisputed 3 best players of all-time imo. Highest peak level achieved. How next, with McDavid closing in.

Gretzky. 205 points. The next in NHL 126.

No one else has ever touched a margin like this. 2.77 vs 1.58 ppg.

Margins are cool, but often it's largely a matter of circumstances.

Put peak Lemieux in the exact same league/season Gretzky had that big margin on a similar caliber team, and Lemieux also likely flirts with that ~205. Maybe it's ~190, maybe it's ~210, but likely in the vicinity.

 

[BraveCanadian]

Put peak Lemieux in the exact same league/season Gretzky had that big margin on a similar caliber team, and Lemieux also likely flirts with that ~205. Maybe it's ~190, maybe it's ~210, but likely in the vicinity.

Coulda, shoulda, woulda..

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Coulda, shoulda, woulda..

Considering he scored 199 points in 76 games that comment is wild

 

[DitchMarner]

In his best three seasons ('89, '93, '96), Lemieux may have been close to Gretzky's peak level of play or equaled or slightly surpassed it. However, Gretzky had about eight seasons at a ridiculously high level whereas Lemieux's fourth-best season isn't really close to any of his three best.

You can bring up health, teammates, scoring environment etc. Both were offense-first players and should be evaluated based on offense. Gretzky was an utterly dominant even strength player at his best even though he wasn't physical or anything special defensively. I'm not too picky about ES versus PP production, but I do feel Gretzky probably has an advantage in terms of even strength play at his best and that, in combination with his longer peak, puts him ahead of Mario for me as far as peak play is concerned.

Gretzky versus Orr is a tough one. I find it innately difficult to meaningfully compare a defenseman to a forward to begin with. Flip a coin, perhaps?

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

1970 Orr is absurd. He won the Ross by 21% (and assists by 55%) as a defenseman.

Hart, Ross, Norris, Smythe, Cup

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Can’t comment on Orr.

Lemieux was the best player I’ve ever seen. Injuries limited his totals but he was the absolute best. In 88 he was in pace to absolutely destroy Gretzky’s 215 but his back was bad enough that he had to have someone tie his skates. In 93 he comes back from cancer and wins the scoring title - probably the best season ever.

In todays game with the non obstruction rules he’d be absolutely unstoppable.

 

[x Tame Impala]

Orr for me. Complete dominance from end to end of the ice.

Yet again HF is absolutely obsessed with strength of team arguments. It pops up constantly and matters much less in these types of discussions

 

[Tad Mikowsky]

Considering he scored 199 points in 76 games that comment is wild

Yep. Never surpassed Gretzky. It’s wild to think he did based on a stat line where he didn’t.

 

[KoozNetsOff 92]

Somewhat of a disingenuous take when you look at the competition Lemieux dominated in 1992-93 and 1996. Was Gretzky going to be that much better than a peak Lafontaine, Selanne, Mogilny, Lindros, Sakic, Forsberg, Jagr, etc.? Those were faster and more skilled players than Gretzky faced which were mostly Canadians and also goalies and defense were better, this why Lemieux was not only arguably as good but possibly better.

Guys like Lafontaine and Selanne weren't better than guys like Bossy and Kurri who Gretzky absolutely destroyed. Didn't Gretzky win the ross by 30+ pts over peak Brett Hull in 91? Destroying prime Yzerman, etc as well? Didn't broken down way past his peak Gretzky dominate the ross race in 93/94? Sorry, there is no argument for Lemieux.

 

[FunkySeeFunkyDo]

Gretzky did everything that people have spent 35+ years projecting out for Lemieux. He did it first, quicker, better, and multiple times. Gretzky is the flesh and blood embodiment of Lemieux stat hound fantasies, but because it’s reality, it is less intriguing for some to discuss than a wonderful “What if a person was entirely different?” game.

Absolutely—Jari Kurri = Warren Young , Paul Coffey = Moe Mantha, Mark Messier = Mike Bullard…100% apples to apples.

 

[Video Nasty]

Absolutely—Jari Kurri = Warren Young , Paul Coffey = Moe Mantha, Mark Messier = Mike Bullard…100% apples to apples.

What are you trying to prove here? That you don’t even know how badly you set yourself up for my reply?

Your choice of players tells me where you want the discussion to revolve: the first three seasons of each players’ career since that’s when they played with Lemieux.

Young debuted with Lemieux (finished 4th in Calder voting). He didn’t play with Pittsburgh the following season and returned for Lemieux’s third season.

Bullard potted 51 goals and 92 points in 76 games the year prior to Lemieux’s debut. He played 14 games during Lemieux’s third season.

Mantha played a little over 3 seasons with Pittsburgh.

Your three players are meant to highlight some point about Mario not having the players that Gretzky did which is the only reason why Gretzky performed so well.

Let’s look at Gretzky now, who dropped 137 points and tied for the league lead in scoring in his first season, only losing the Art Ross due to the goals tiebreaker.

Kurri and Coffey were not on the team until the following season, while Messier was a fellow 12 goal 33 point rookie.

Kurri and Coffey made their debuts during year two of Gretzky’s career. Gretzky had just 6 less points than those two and Messier combined. He of course set a new high water mark for points in a season with 164.

Based off his prior season where the three were not tied to Gretzky’s success because two of them were not even on the team yet, Gretzky blowing them away when they made their debuts, and none of them cracking 90 points during his third season when he set the single season goal record and broke his own point mark by 48 points, your point doesn’t hold any water.

Sorry, Gretzky did it first, faster, better, and longer. He had already shown he was instantly at a higher level than Lemieux at the same respective point of their careers without Kurri, Coffey, and Messier muddying the waters in an attempt to diminish his greatness.

 

[Voight]

Gretzky's 215 point season is probably untouchable.

As is 4 200 point seasons in 5 years, let alone anyone having more than a single 200 point year.

 

[Voight]

You want to say Gretzky was the greater player that's fine. He had a healthy prime while lemieux was ravaged my spine and cancer during his peak. Being healthy doesn't mean he was a BETTER than Lemieux.

When Lemieux was healthy in 89 he still unable to surpass Gretzky's statistical peak.

This guy has 199 point season and a 44 point playoff, 46 game point streak etc. Calling him that is crazy. His 161 in 70 games in 96 is probably better offensive season than any Gretzky season.

How can you be this obtuse?

 

[Victorias]

1970 Orr is absurd. He won the Ross by 21% (and assists by 55%) as a defenseman.

Hart, Ross, Norris, Smythe, Cup

Orr for me. Complete dominance from end to end of the ice.

Yet again HF is absolutely obsessed with strength of team arguments. It pops up constantly and matters much less in these types of discussions

Yeah, Gretzky and Lemieux are at least debatable as far as offensive peak. And I wouldn’t be shocked if another player entered that discussion at some point.

But who’s the closest comparison to peak Orr? Denis Potvin? Being the best player on both ends of the ice is something else. And, no, he wasn’t the best at both ends his whole career, but he was for at least a couple years.

I know everyone says “I didn’t see him…”. Well, go watch some old Bruins games and see what you think!

 

[Voight]

I’m convinced @daver watched so many Crosby/Pens highlights that his body couldn’t take it any more and budded to form @Nathaniel Skywalker

We gotta change this pic to Nathaniel Skywalker

 

[Coffee]

Don’t give a shit.

Based bro

 

[BraveCanadian]

Absolutely—Jari Kurri = Warren Young , Paul Coffey = Moe Mantha, Mark Messier = Mike Bullard…100% apples to apples.

Paul Coffey is a horrible example to use in this cherry picked list. You know, considering he played with Lemieux when Lemieux had his best season and all.

All three of these players in the poll had stacked teams through some of their careers. Lemieux was one massive upset from being on a dynasty club himself.

 

[FunkySeeFunkyDo]

What are you trying to prove here? That you don’t even know how badly you set yourself up for my reply?

Your choice of players tells me where you want the discussion to revolve: the first three seasons of each players’ career since that’s when they played with Lemieux.

Young debuted with Lemieux (finished 4th in Calder voting). He didn’t play with Pittsburgh the following season and returned for Lemieux’s third season.

Bullard potted 51 goals and 92 points in 76 games the year prior to Lemieux’s debut. He played 14 games during Lemieux’s third season.

Mantha played a little over 3 seasons with Pittsburgh.

Your three players are meant to highlight some point about Mario not having the players that Gretzky did which is the only reason why Gretzky performed so well.

Let’s look at Gretzky now, who dropped 137 points and tied for the league lead in scoring in his first season, only losing the Art Ross due to the goals tiebreaker.

Kurri and Coffey were not on the team until the following season, while Messier was a fellow 12 goal 33 point rookie.

Kurri and Coffey made their debuts during year two of Gretzky’s career. Gretzky had just 6 less points than those two and Messier combined. He of course set a new high water mark for points in a season with 164.

Based off his prior season where the three were not tied to Gretzky’s success because two of them were not even on the team yet, Gretzky blowing them away when they made their debuts, and none of them cracking 90 points during his third season when he set the single season goal record and broke his own point mark by 48 points, your point doesn’t hold any water.

Sorry, Gretzky did it first, faster, better, and longer. He had already shown he was instantly at a higher level than Lemieux at the same respective point of their careers without Kurri, Coffey, and Messier muddying the waters in an attempt to diminish his greatness.

The point is Gretzky got to play with a first ballot HOFer on his wing (granted not his first NHL season) while Lemieux turned a minor leaguer into a 40 goal scorer and that Gretzky’s 180+ scoring seasons included both Kurri and Coffey. It’s a team game.

 

[BigEezyE22]

199 points in 76 games with Rob Brown and Bob Errey.

Shame Lemieux's peak wasn't on a stacked team in a shitty Campbell conference playing teams that looked like the leftovers in an abortion clinic.

 

[BigEezyE22]

Gretzky doesn't break 175 between Brown and Errey.