Best Peak: Gretzky vs Lemieux vs Orr

[daver]

And Messier on PP, sure. Without those future HHoFers around him I doubt it's still 212 points.

So finishing out of the Top 20 in scoring gets you into the HHOF does it?

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Just because a future hall of fame was not yet a hall of famer doesnt diminish the raw talent that players possesses. Having Messier kurri etc even green is still huge

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

There's a pretty big statistical gap between Lemieux 1989 and Lemieux 1996.

1989
1. Lemieux- 199 points
5. Brown- 115 points (173%)
10. Robitaille- 98 points (203%)

Give Lemieux full credit for missed time in 1996 (which is not what would have happened)
1996
1. Lemieux- 189 points
5. Forsberg- 116 points (163%)
10. Fedorov - 107 points (176%)

This isn't giving Lemieux credit for missing 4 games in 1989, but is giving credit for Lemieux missing 12 in 1996.

The EVP shows an even starker picture
1989
1. Lemieux - 102
5. Robitaille- 74 (142%)
10. Olczyk - 59 (173%)

1996, again giving Lemieux credit for missed time
1. Jagr - 95
2. Lemieux- 86
5. Mogilny - 71 (121%)
10. Kariya - 61 (140%)

The gap is pretty stark. Even more so considering he had substantially more help in 1996 than in 1989.

It's like arguing Crosby 2016 was a higher level of play than Crosby 2011.

Crosby in 2016 was third in league scoring not 41 points up on the third league scorer. So not really.

 

[The Grim Reaper]

I’m convinced @daver watched so many Crosby/Pens highlights that his body couldn’t take it any more and budded to form @Nathaniel Skywalker

 

[pcruz]

You could put Gretzky outscoring prime Lemieux by 76 points (0.62 PPG).

Then following it up by beating prime Lemieux by 0.15 PPG despite a devastating knee injury.

If we are going peak on peak by singular seasons, Lemieux 1989 and 1993 absolutely belong with peak Gretzky (82,83,84,85,86,87).

Lemieux 1996 is a clear step down from all the 8 aforementioned seasons.

I'm not sure you understand the definition of what a "devastating knee injury" truly is.

It's what ended Bobby Orr's career.

Devastating injury is a debilitating injury. Preventing a person from perfirming basic actions. Like tying your skates for example.


Someone with 1500 games played can't be said to have suffered devastating injuries during their career.

 

[Tad Mikowsky]

This guy has 199 point season and a 44 point playoff, 46 game point streak etc. Calling him that is crazy. His 161 in 70 games in 96 is probably better offensive season than any Gretzky season.

You’re using pace again. Further reinforces my point.

If you can call McDavid a PP merchant, I’ll call Lemieux a pace merchant. Cause there isn’t a singular total season where he surpassed Gretzky.

 

[BraveCanadian]

Certainly Orr or Gretzky for peak. I lean Orr for absolute peak and obviously Gretzky quickly overtakes him for longevity.

This. I actually have Gretz 3rd here

lawl

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

I’m convinced @daver watched so many Crosby/Pens highlights that his body couldn’t take it any more and budded to form @Nathaniel Skywalker

I was born of the force

 

[Coffee]

I was born of the force

i love using star wars as a analogy for real life

anyways back to the thread

Just because a future hall of fame was not yet a hall of famer doesnt diminish the raw talent that players possesses. Having Messier kurri etc even green is still huge

We never said otherwise.

 

[amnesiac]

a good debate.... but Gretzky leading the league in scoring by 55-60% for about 6 consecutive seasons is just something we'll possibly never see again, and that was his prime.

If were picking single best season, well....

69-70 Orr vs 84-85 Gretzky vs 88-89 Mario... Ill still say 99

 

[Video Nasty]

Really you think so? That 161 points in 70 games which is 189 in 82 game in a 6.29 gpg league very similar to 05-06 and last years gpg league wide. This was when goalies had good sized pads and weren't flopping like fishes like the early 80s. The game had evolved tremendously and that season is the highest adjusted season in history.

Lemieux had 109 points in his first 41 games (48 team games) that year. Incredible performance.

However, if we were told he would play 70 games total, your line of thinking tells us that he would have had 186 points in those 70 games he played that year (or 218 in the 82 games you projected out to from his final 70). Instead, he had 161 in reality.

He had 95 after his first 35. He had 66 over his final 35. Pace just can’t be comfortably used as fact. Even for one as magnificent as Mario Lemieux.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Lemieux had 109 points in his first 41 games (48 team games) that year. Incredible performance.

However, if we were told he would play 70 games total, your line of thinking tells us that he would have had 186 points in those 70 games he played that year (or 218 in the 82 games you projected out to from his final 70). Instead, he had 161 in reality.

He had 95 after his first 35. He had 66 over his final 35. Pace just can’t be comfortably used as fact. Even for one as magnificent as Mario Lemieux.

Difference is I'm pacing out 12 games

i love using star wars as a analogy for real life

anyways back to the thread


We never said otherwise.

You must be fun at parties

 

[Pablo El Perro]

I'm not sure you understand the definition of what a "devastating knee injury" truly is.

It's what ended Bobby Orr's career.

Devastating injury is a debilitating injury. Preventing a person from perfirming basic actions. Like tying your skates for example.


Someone with 1500 games played can't be said to have suffered devastating injuries during their career.

Regarding injuries, we don't know what it's like now. Given today's surgeries Orr might have missed a year, came back for an off year, then picked up where he was.

 

[Salsa Shark]

Wayne

Btw 68 even strength goals is an unheralded untouchable Gretzky record

 

[Sasha Orlov]

1. Orr, though I understand it was a much different/smaller league. Full 200 foot player, though.
2. Lemieux
3. Gretzky

Just brutal

 

[The Grim Reaper]

Just brutal

Don’t give a shit.

 

[Sasha Orlov]

Don’t give a shit.

Based

 

[Fire Sweeney]

Robert 1st and Wayne close 2nd. Meryo is not even in the discussion.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

That Lemieux had to sit out back to backs in 1996 doesn't help his case.

I double checked and it's true that Lemieux mostly sat out for back to back games in 1996.

The Penguins played back-to-back games 17 times during the 1995-96 season.

Lemieux played back-to-back games only 9 times. (Another way of looking at it - Lemieux missed 12 games that season. 8 of those 12 were the second game of back-to-back matches. 2 of those were the first game of back-to-back matches. He only missed 2 non-B2B's the entire season).

And, although this is a small sample size, Lemieux did much worse with one day's rest (1.71 PPG - a pace of 140 points over 82 games). Excluding the 2nd day of back-to-back games, Lemieux scored 2.37 PPG (a pace of 194 points over 82 games).

Lemieux's 1996 season was very impressive, but this suggests that his PPG was at least somewhat inflated, because he, unlike almost every other player in the NHL, was able to pick and choose which nights he wanted to play. (But, it's worth emphasizing, this is a very small sample size).

 

[TheStatican]

Like when Gretzky put up 212 in 80 playing with Anderson (105 points) and Kurri (86 points). Setting the all time assists and goals record in the same season.

A year after setting the all time points record while next highest Oiler was 36th in points.

So we should give Gretzky more credit simply because the scoring contribution from the others on his line wasn't entirely concentrated on one of those two players but was more balanced instead? Anderson and Kurri had 191 points combined, Brown and Errey had 173.

Which pair of line mates would be more conducive to generating offense with; 21yo Anderson and Kurri or 20yo Rob Brown and defensive specialist Bob Errey?

We all know that Brown only ended up as high as he did in scoring that season thanks to being Lemieux's wing man - he couldn't even manage to be a point a game player without him. The best he did otherwise was 42pts in 44 games in Hartford just two years removed from his big year and he ONLY managed that half-a-season level of output thanks to playing on the Whalers 1st unit powerplay and being on the top line with Ron Francis and Pat Verbeek. Kurri and Anderson were both easily far more accomplished scorers without Gretzky than that.

Or when he put up 205 in 74, including 153 in 51.

His per game numbers that season where a little higher because he beat up on the weaker teams and was out late in games still trying to get goals and points in blowout wins. He did the same in 85-86.

Gretzky's real best season? That would be 84-85. He produced just as well against both the strong teams and the bottom feeders and he wasn't out there potting goals late in blowout games.

Or when he put up 183 and no one else in the league hit 110 points. He had more EVP than anyone else had points. Had more assists than anyone in the league had points. And still lead in goals.

That gap would be far less if his main competitor didn't miss games. For sure credit to Gretzky for staying healthy, but the "talent/skill gap" wasn't as large as the raw point totals indicate.

Lemieux was coulda, woulda, shoulda. Gretzky did it, multiple times.

Did Lemieux not "do it" multiple times as well? i.e being considered the best player in world in multiple seasons.

Orr 1970 season is probably my vote for best single season. Best defensive player in the world while crushing the Art Ross race.

Absolutely, Gretzky had any number of years that you can pick from as being at his best - he did it far more often than the other two did. That speaks to his longevity and greatness as a whole but that fact alone doesn't mean that his absolute best was better. And the fact that you SPECIFICALLY singled out Orr 's "1970 season" without any prompting from anyone else goes to show that you understand that just as well.

 

[Master P]

Its always Gretzky

 

[Albatros]

Someone with 1500 games played can't be said to have suffered devastating injuries during their career.

Gordie Howe fractured his skull.

 

[authentic]

Gordie Howe fractured his skull.

In his rookie season, then only started dominating 4 years later and played another 30 years after that mostly at an elite level

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Idk what's the point of these polls. If you don't say Gretzky you just get attacked by the wayne fans lol

 

[authentic]

I don’t think there’s a wrong answer for peak. Technically Bobby Orr was the best overall talent that ever lived, Lemieux and Gretzky have roughly equal peaks, Gretzky did it longer and dominated his peers more but Lemieux did it against more skilled competition and much better defense and goaltending, also while not at 100% health which is why I usually side with Lemieux over Gretzky at their best.