Best Peak: Gretzky vs Lemieux vs Orr

[hamzarocks]

What’s more wild is having a guy who is all about CUPS AND BEING A WINNER, but suddenly that doesn’t matter because his precious player won less than the actual better player.

Lemieux is the king of what ifs. Pace merchant.

Hes the "pace merchant" to only Gretzky sure

Outside of that he has a better peak/prime then any player to play in the NHL

He is the only player to ever rival Gretzky seriously.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Hes the "pace merchant" to only Gretzky sure

Outside of that he has a better peak/prime then any player to play in the NHL

He is the only player to ever rival Gretzky seriously.

This guy has 199 point season and a 44 point playoff, 46 game point streak etc. Calling him that is crazy. His 161 in 70 games in 96 is probably better offensive season than any Gretzky season.

 

[jigglysquishy]

His 161 in 70 games in 96 is probably better offensive season than any Gretzky season.

The singular worst post you've ever made.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

The singular worst post you've ever made.

Really you think so? That 161 points in 70 games which is 189 in 82 game in a 6.29 gpg league very similar to 05-06 and last years gpg league wide. This was when goalies had good sized pads and weren't flopping like fishes like the early 80s. The game had evolved tremendously and that season is the highest adjusted season in history.

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

Give me the 37-102-139, +124 defenseman

 

[Mike C]

This guy has 199 point season and a 44 point playoff, 46 game point streak etc. Calling him that is crazy. His 161 in 70 games in 96 is probably better offensive season than any Gretzky season.

Come in off the ledge please!! We have the new medication now!

 

[jigglysquishy]

Really you think so? That 161 points in 70 games which is 189 in 82 game in a 6.29 gpg league very similar to 05-06 and last years gpg league wide. This was when goalies had good sized pads and weren't flopping like fishes like the early 80s. The game had evolved tremendously and that season is the highest adjusted season in history.

He was outscored at even strength by his own teammate. Only outscored Jagr by 12.

Gretzky has about 6 seasons ahead of Lemieux 1996. Lemieux has two clearly ahead of 1996.

Another piece of evidence that gpg/gpg is an awful model.

Three Penguins in top 5 of scoring. Gretzky lapped the field with no Oiler in the top 30.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

He was outscored at even strength by his own teammate. Only outscored Jagr by 12.

Gretzky has about 6 seasons ahead of Lemieux 1996. Lemieux has two clearly ahead of 1996.

Another piece of evidence that gpg/gpg is an awful model.

He was outscored by jagr at ev points because he played 12 less games. And lol at saying only 12 points. 12 points in 12 less games is not close at all. And he crushed third in scoring by 41 points again in 12 less games. That season is at the same level as any wayne season n maybe better. Watch a game from 85 then watch one from 96

 

[jigglysquishy]

He was outscored by jagr at ev points because he played 12 less games. And lol at saying only 12 points. 12 points in 12 less games is not close at all. And he crushed third in scoring by 41 points again in 12 less games. That season is at the same level as any wayne season n maybe better. Watch a game from 85 then watch one from 96

If you look at ppg dominance of peers, it's clearly behind 6 Gretzky seasons and 2 Lemieux ones.

It's one where the tape doesn't help Lemieux at all. He's very clearly behind his peak and peak Gretzky.

Gretzky set the all time point record by outscoring his teammate by over 100 points.

 

[Midnight Judges]

You can argue that their peak on-ice impacts were similar on a per-game basis, but the difference maker here is that Gretzky achieved that peak level of level of play for a higher quantity of games.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

If you look at ppg dominance of peers, it's clearly behind 6 Gretzky seasons and 2 Lemieux ones.

It's one where the tape doesn't help Lemieux at all. He's very clearly behind his peak and peak Gretzky.

You seem to not like gpg in league seasons but like ppg versus peers which doesn't say much because competition matters. Lemieux was able to destroy prime Gretzky by 31 points in 2 less games and prime jagr by 12 in 12 less gp is real dominance

 

[North Cole]

Gretzky
Orr
Lemieux

AINEC

 

[SingnBluesOnBroadway]

It's amazing how after all these years Gretzky is still underrated.

 

[snipes]

Gretzky. It’s always Gretzky.

 

[jigglysquishy]

You seem to not like gpg in league seasons but like ppg versus peers which doesn't say much because competition matters. Lemieux was able to destroy prime Gretzky by 31 points in 2 less games and prime jagr by 12 in 12 less gp is real dominance

And Gretzky outscoring peak Bossy by 65 isn't?

Or peak Kurri by 73?

Or peak Hawerchuk by 78?

Or prime Trottier by 83? Or prime Dionne by 95?

Or post peak Gretzky outscoring peak Hull by 31?

That Lemieux had to sit out back to backs in 1996 doesn't help his case.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

And Gretzky outscoring peak Bossy by 65 isn't?

Or peak Kurri by 73?

Or peak Hawerchuk by 78?

Or prime Trottier by 83? Or prime Dionne by 95?

Or post peak Gretzky outscoring peak Hull by 31?

That Lemieux had to sit out back to backs in 1996 doesn't help his case.

I was waiting for the b2b comment. and there Is a false belief that he sat out every b2b which is not true. And as good as those players are none come close to jagr overall offensively and outscoring wayne in his prime by 31 trumps all of that. Jagr in his prime beats all of those players year in n year out

 

[Killer Orcas]

There is no wrong answer here but I'm taking 99.

 

[Deno]

All three are great.
A healthy Lemieux may of proven he was better but he was not healthy and he didn't prove to be better. Gretzky is the GOAT and I doubt there will be another player to ever dethrone him.

 

[jigglysquishy]

I was waiting for the b2b comment. and there Is a false belief that he sat out every b2b which is not true. And as good as those players are none come close to jagr overall offensively and outscoring wayne in his prime by 31 trumps all of that. Jagr in his prime beats all of those players year in n year out

You could put Gretzky outscoring prime Lemieux by 76 points (0.62 PPG).

Then following it up by beating prime Lemieux by 0.15 PPG despite a devastating knee injury.

If we are going peak on peak by singular seasons, Lemieux 1989 and 1993 absolutely belong with peak Gretzky (82,83,84,85,86,87).

Lemieux 1996 is a clear step down from all the 8 aforementioned seasons.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

You could put Gretzky outscoring prime Lemieux by 76 points (0.62 PPG).

Then following it up by beating prime Lemieux by 0.15 PPG.

If we are going peak on peak by singular seasons, Lemieux 1989 and 1993 absolutely belong with peak Gretzky (82,83,84,85,86,87).

Lemieux 1996 is a clear step down from all the 8 aforementioned seasons.

And how? Explain. So far what I'm taking from you is because of ev points N b2b games? Or are you just looking at raw stats that 161 cannot be as good as 200? Because 161 points in 70 games in 96 is worlds better than 161 in 70 games if it was done in 84 for instance

 

[Mike C]

The singular worst post you've ever made.

He was outscored at even strength by his own teammate. Only outscored Jagr by 12.

Gretzky has about 6 seasons ahead of Lemieux 1996. Lemieux has two clearly ahead of 1996.

Another piece of evidence that gpg/gpg is an awful model.

Three Penguins in top 5 of scoring. Gretzky lapped the field with no Oiler in the top 30.

Gretzky and Orr the 2 best. Metrics and stats can be shoved you know where

No slight to Mario. He just isn't The Great One

 

[jigglysquishy]

And how? Explain. So far what I'm taking from you is because of ev points N b2b games? Or are you just looking at raw stats that 161 cannot be as good as 200? Because 161 points in 70 games in 96 is worlds better than 161 in 70 games if it was done in 84 for instance

The gap between peers, even taking Jagr out of it.

The even strength dominance is vital. Lower EVP/GP than Jagr. Same EVP/GP as Lindros and Nedved. It's a far cry from Lemieux 1989 or 1993, when no one (save Gretzky 1989) was in the same stratosphere.

It's a clear case where the tape makes it very obvious. Lemieux was noticeably slower and less shifty in 1996 than in 1993. And that explains why in 1993 he lapped the field at even strength, while in 1996 he was part of the pack. He didn't drive the net the same in 1996 and just very clearly looks like a lesser player.

He played on the powerplay with peak Jagr and peak Francis. Peak Jagr is a different level of offensive player than Gretzky ever had on the powerplay.

If you watch 60 minutes from each season it's clear 1996 is a tier below.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

The gap between peers, even taking Jagr out of it.

The even strength dominance is vital. Lower EVP/GP than Jagr. Same EVP/GP as Lindros and Nedved. It's a far cry from Lemieux 1989 or 1993, when no one (save Gretzky 1989) was in the same stratosphere.

It's a clear case where the tape makes it very obvious. Lemieux was noticeably slower and less shifty in 1996 than in 1993. And that explains why in 1993 he lapped the field at even strength, while in 1996 he was part of the pack. He didn't drive the net the same in 1996 and just very clearly looks like a lesser player.

He played on the powerplay with peak Jagr and peak Francis. Peak Jagr is a different level of offensive player than Gretzky ever had on the powerplay.

If you watch 60 minutes from each season it's clear 1996 is a tier below.

Nowhere did I say visually did he look the best. But statistically it is right there. He was second in ev points and first in pp and sh points. Taking jagr out of it its

Lemieux 161 in 70
Sakic 120 in 82
That's 41 points you diving into how lemieux scored his points is a way of trying to dissect It to make it look worse. Lemieux has always been known as the best pp scorer of all time and that doesn't diminish any season.

 

[daver]

This. I actually have Gretz 3rd here, he was healthy and played on the best team ever at his peak, that’s what makes him look better. Mario did more with less and what he did while suffering from permanent back problems and coming back from cancer was superhuman. Orr was probably the best out of the 3 for peak vs his peers however the league was much weaker back then so I’ll give the nod to Lemieux.

Peak play:
1. Mario
2. Bobby
3. Wayne

The 1981/82 Oilers was the best team ever? Makes Wayne outscoring the #2 scorer on the Oilers by over 100 points that much more impressive.

 

[jigglysquishy]

Nowhere did I say visually did he look the best. But statistically it is right there. He was second in ev points and first in pp and sh points. Taking jagr out of it its

Lemieux 161 in 70
Sakic 120 in 82
That's 41 points you diving into how lemieux scored his points is a way of trying to dissect It to make it look worse. Lemieux has always been known as the best pp scorer of all time and that doesn't diminish any season.

There's a pretty big statistical gap between Lemieux 1989 and Lemieux 1996.

1989
1. Lemieux- 199 points
5. Brown- 115 points (173%)
10. Robitaille- 98 points (203%)

Give Lemieux full credit for missed time in 1996 (which is not what would have happened)
1996
1. Lemieux- 189 points
5. Forsberg- 116 points (163%)
10. Fedorov - 107 points (176%)

This isn't giving Lemieux credit for missing 4 games in 1989, but is giving credit for Lemieux missing 12 in 1996.

The EVP shows an even starker picture
1989
1. Lemieux - 102
5. Robitaille- 74 (142%)
10. Olczyk - 59 (173%)

1996, again giving Lemieux credit for missed time
1. Jagr - 95
2. Lemieux- 86
5. Mogilny - 71 (121%)
10. Kariya - 61 (140%)

The gap is pretty stark. Even more so considering he had substantially more help in 1996 than in 1989.

It's like arguing Crosby 2016 was a higher level of play than Crosby 2011.