Best league outside NHL

[Hanji]

Yes, it is technical detail, doesnt change the core of the argument. And I didnt lie, I was slightly incorrect about %(since I didnt look it up and was talking from memory), but I am right about the situation.

So 2021
TOP 30 had 19 imports, 10 euros
Top 50 had 30 imports, 16 euros
Top 100 had 49 imports 30 euros

2022

Top 30 18 imports 8 euros
Top 50 29 imports 15 euros
Top 100 53 imports 29 euros

Now, I did not count blr and kaz players as imports.

So, around 30% of top scorers are gone. For top 5 for Top 30 even more. Out of NA players, a lot of their top guys are gone aswell so yeah around a half of top players gone. If we break it down by teams it will look even worse.

You told untruths because your core argument is faulty and are now moving goalposts.
Many of the top scorers are gone, but as the top 100 scoring example YOU provided illustrates, they’ve been replaced by relatively equal talent. Talent is only down around 20%.

Enough with the lying, Garl; or as you call it “I was slightly incorrect”

 

[WarriorofTime]

Total numers are useless, they don't indicate the difference in quality, KHL is not NHL, a random swedish KHLer from 2021 was a top 2 defenseman or TOP 6 forward for his team, a random russian or kazakh player is a bottom liner.

You are acting as if just some random 15 out of 100 players left the league, but those were not random players, they were almost all high impact players.

Enough with the lying, the "European" nations accounted for 24 % of total points in 2021-22 and 7 % of total points in 2023-24.

 

[Garl]

Enough with the lying, the "European" nations accounted for 24 % of total points in 2021-22 and 7 % of total points in 2023-24.

Yet they(together with NA players that left) were almost 50% of the top players in russian KHL teams.
Now, you throw the "you are lying" line a lot. Can you show where exactly am I "lying"? Any proofs?

 

[WarriorofTime]

Yet they(together with NA players that left) were almost 50% of the top players in russian KHL teams.
Now, you throw the "you are lying" line a lot. Can you show where exactly am I "lying"? Any proofs?

You ignore real data and make stuff up to fit your narrative. You just make up numbers and when presented with real data just shout that your made up data is more real than the real data. Your whole schtick throughout this board is that every Russian player is terrible, so sure I guess in your mind every European player is better than every Russian player automatically. Every post in this thread is a lie, but I suppose it's par for the course for someone that says 21 year old top defensemen are the exact same as 27 year old defenseman from 15 years ago when expressing "valid concern", your anti-Russian schtick is tired at this point.

I've presented the data, you just choose to ignore it because it doesn't fit the narratives you have convinced yourself about.

 

[Garl]

You told untruths because your core argument is faulty and are now moving goalposts.
Many of the top scorers are gone, but as the top 100 scoring example YOU provided illustrates, they’ve been replaced by relatively equal talent. Talent is only down around 20%.

Enough with the lying, Garl; or as you call it “I was slightly incorrect”

Prove it. That they were replaced by equal talent. Also, try to actually build a case for KHL>SHL or NL. How does it work with all the happenings in last 1,5 years? How does it work that a league with 20 russian teams that have 3 man import limit, that can not sign euros, and has a limited access to NA market is better than 14 team league with no such restrictions?

 

[Garl]

You ignore real data and make stuff up to fit your narrative. You just make up numbers and when presented with real data just shout that your made up data is more real than the real data. Your whole schtick throughout this board is that every Russian player is terrible, so sure I guess in your mind every European player is better than every Russian player automatically. Every post in this thread is a lie, but I suppose it's par for the course for someone that says 21 year old top defensemen are the exact same as 27 year old defenseman from 15 years ago when expressing "valid concern", your anti-Russian schtick is tired at this point.

I've presented the data, you just choose to ignore it because it doesn't fit the narratives you have convinced yourself about.

It is a personal attack, you present no argument. I have said why your data is meaningless, you did not try to refute my argument, instead went for a personal attack.
So, let us start with a simple question: swedish KHler in 2021 and russian KHler in 2021 is there any major difference?
Or maybe another way, like I said to Hanji, present a case, why KHL is better than SHL or NL. Stay true to facts keep in mind 20 russian teams, 3 man import limit euros not avaliable. Present this case, why do you think KHL is superior? Why the exodus of almost 50% of the top players(as I have listed above, if you disagree, prove that I am wrong without personal attacks) doesn not affect it status as the 2nd best league in the World

 

[vorky]

Prove it. That they were replaced by equal talent. Also, try to actually build a case for KHL>SHL or NL. How does it work with all the happenings in last 1,5 years? How does it work that a league with 20 russian teams that have 3 man import limit, that can not sign euros, and has a limited access to NA market is better than 14 team league with no such restrictions?

Again, read posts # 114 & 130 & 145 in this thread.

 

[WarriorofTime]

I have said why your data is meaningless

No you haven't, I presented data, you just said "IT'S MEANINGLESS" and then tried to imply all the best players were non-Russian, of which I refuted you some more. You lie, then you double down, then you circle back to your original lie when you are called out and raise your arms and say "nobody has refuted my points!" It's exhausting.

 

[Czechboy]

You guys do know there is a quote function, right?

So if you think you are full of shit.. then legit quote it and then disprove it.

This liar liar pants on fire shit is tiring.

 

[WarriorofTime]

You guys do know there is a quote function, right?

So if you think you are full of shit.. then legit quote it and then disprove it.

This liar liar pants on fire shit is tiring.

I already have numerous times, cut it out. I am the one presenting data, which goes ignored by the people that don't like what it says.

 

[Hanji]

You guys do know there is a quote function, right?

So if you think you are full of shit.. then legit quote it and then disprove it.

This liar liar pants on fire shit is tiring.

You’re late to the festivities. Garl’s lying has already been quoted and called out pages back.
Except Garl’s excuse when caught was that he/she was just “slightly incorrect”. Lolololol

But hey, if ignoring it fits the narrative be my guest.

 

[Garl]

No you haven't, I presented data, you just said "IT'S MEANINGLESS" and then tried to imply all the best players were non-Russian, of which I refuted you some more. You lie, then you double down, then you circle back to your original lie when you are called out and raise your arms and say "nobody has refuted my points!" It's exhausting.

I said why it is meaningless and will repeat it again, KHL is not NHL, imports were brought to lift the quality not as regular players.
I will repeat my question, it is a direct one, is there any significant difference between an average swedish(or czech) player in KHL and average russian(or belarusian or kazakhstani)?

Also, I never claimed that ALL the best players were non russians, for people calling me a liar for 70% instead of 60% that is an amusing turn

Btw, I did a rather big job and posted a list of all 19 russian KHL teams and their top players. Instead of "liar, liar" maybe refute those? And seriously, not by cherry picking one questionable example.
Ah but you can't.

 

[Garl]

You’re late to the festivities. Garl’s lying has already been quoted and called out pages back.
Except Garl’s excuse when caught was that he/she was just “slightly incorrect”. Lolololol

But hey, if ignoring it fits the narrative be my guest.

I was at the job with no access to eliteprospects at that time and gave figure out of my memory. Yes, 60 instead of 70.
Not to mention that you still have to provide a coherent positive argument FOR KHL being 2nd best league. Instead, you just insist that it is 2nd by default and run around trying to mock my argument without ever addressing it( I mean, 20% drop is not enough line is well not enough, you have to show why it is not enough LMAO).

 

[SkeeterPumpkinEater]

I was at the job with no access to eliteprospects at that time and gave figure out of my memory. Yes, 60 instead of 70.
Not to mention that you still have to provide a coherent positive argument FOR KHL being 2nd best league. Instead, you just insist that it is 2nd by default and run around trying to mock my argument without ever addressing it( I mean, 20% drop is not enough line is well not enough, you have to show why it is not enough LMAO).

When I used to work for the Crunch they would practice listening to godsmack CDs

 

[Garl]

You probably didn't watch Salavat in 2021/22, Finns there looked just lackluster (yet with Lamsa as the coach they could do anything without any demotion from the top line), Chmelevski's dynamic style that was especially there in the second half of last season was a breath of fresh air.

Barach looks like a miss at this point (but again, we're talking about just 12 games into the season), but Vityaz is a disaster so far this season, maybe he will be better when they'll finally hire a proper coach (no idea why they decided to fire Butsayev after the last season).

As for "previously both would be" I have doubts about that, as it is not like a 5 import player limit wasn't there - so maybe, but also maybe not.

I watched Salavat actually. Like come on, Chemelevski is a good player and in last season Hartikainen was either uninspired or was saving the best for playoffs, but Chemelevski is not on prime Harti, or Granlund level. I would even put Manninen ahead of him for now.

Barach is just worse than Aaltonen, Ojamaki or Audette. Johnson and Dea are just worse than Maillet or Kovar for example. I can go on and you know it)

Anyway, you are correct about 5 man import limit, which is why I think that KHL never established itself as a clear 2nd best league in the World and was always just a best of the rest, leader of that 2nd tier pack with SHL, AHL and NL even in its glorious days around 10 years ago. And thats why the money argument was never a decisive one aswell, I mean, KHL certainly has more money than anyone in Europe, but what does this money do? Sure they attract some expensive mercenaries, but main effect is that they overheat the internal market. As a result SKA and Avangard throw insane money at a mediocre russian player, We can all be happy for let's say Tolchinsky and his family, but his market value in Russia is like 4-5 times higher than in the outside World.

It is like a price of vodka in Iraq. Just the fact that it costs five times more doesn't mean it is any better than vodka in Finland.

 

[ItWasJustified]

Oh you speak for all of Sweden

doesn't have to be the NHL model.

for example the SHL system should envelope the Norway and Denmark leagues. A team in the Royal arena, Copenhagen, would really boost the SHL.

You can't bring in teams from other countries together with Swedish teams. It's literally impossible because there's a 51% rule in Swedish sports. Every club MUST be 51% owned by the fans/members, meaning the members always have the majority vote. You can't let a team from Copenhagen, for example, be owned by some rich guy who alone can buy wins.

 

[Caser]

I watched Salavat actually. Like come on, Chemelevski is a good player and in last season Hartikainen was either uninspired or was saving the best for playoffs, but Chemelevski is not on prime Harti, or Granlund level. I would even put Manninen ahead of him for now.

The issue is there is no such thing as "prime Harti" in this context, the league level every season consists of every player's actual performance, not the prime level of how good they were at some point, so I'm now talking about that Chmelevski v2023 was looking better than Harti v2022 and therefore in this particular case the replacement was more than effective.

Barach is just worse than Aaltonen, Ojamaki or Audette. Johnson and Dea are just worse than Maillet or Kovar for example. I can go on and you know it)

I know that you like to make conclusions after a dozen of games, but it is just dumb, as the same Chmelevski was looking rather meh the first like 20 games in, but somehow you're refusing to look into full last season like it wouldn't exist even though it is a much fuller data set. Not to mention that Kovar is a rather funny example, as as soon as his chemistry with Mozyakin and Zaripov stopped he was looking fine, but not like anything special.

However you brought up the Vityaz foreighners and it is a very solid example to compare, as they indeed were really good. So Vityaz had Aaltonen, Ojamaki, Audette and Kemilainen as foreigners in 2021/22 and had Wilson, Roy and Graovac in 2022/23. So the question here is if (considering the league foreigner numbers going down by about 40%) we can say that Wilson, Roy and Graovac would equal to about 60% of Aaltonen, Ojamaki, Audette and Kemilainen? If yes, than the quality wise it would be a proper replacement, not quantity wise, of course (hence the 60% coefficient).

Anyway, you are correct about 5 man import limit, which is why I think that KHL never established itself as a clear 2nd best league in the World and was always just a best of the rest, leader of that 2nd tier pack with SHL, AHL and NL even in its glorious days around 10 years ago. And thats why the money argument was never a decisive one aswell, I mean, KHL certainly has more money than anyone in Europe, but what does this money do? Sure they attract some expensive mercenaries, but main effect is that they overheat the internal market. As a result SKA and Avangard throw insane money at a mediocre russian player, We can all be happy for let's say Tolchinsky and his family, but his market value in Russia is like 4-5 times higher than in the outside World.

It is like a price of vodka in Iraq. Just the fact that it costs five times more doesn't mean it is any better than vodka in Finland.

I'm not arguing about the inefficient use of money, but money is still money and if SHL pays like 4 times less (considering taxes) it kind of is an important factor for foreign players.

 

[WayTooCold]

KHL was always a total joke. Even at its prime in ~2010. Marjamäki coached there tells you everything. Russia has massive potential in hockey tho. But the leadership is lacking. When Jokerit played there I didn't bother to watch even 1 second of KHL. Good riddance. Finland will support Ukraine at least the next 1000 years I promise.

The rank is. Liiga has good/mediocre players but coaching level is crap. EHL has been won by Swedish teams almost every time.

1. SHL
2. Swiss League
...
10. KHL/Liiga

 

[Czechboy]

I was looking something up for the Michkov thread but thought I'd share the top 10 in KHL scoring today. Riley Barber is a 29 year old who played 4 NHL games and was drafted in round 6. David Sklenicka in top 10 scoring almost floored me. Good player but he's not that good. Same team as Barber so these two must be cooking!

Kind of neat as the Top 10 has 5 Russians and 5 non Russians in it. Gusev was a guy I thought would tear the NHL up tbh.

 

[Caser]

View attachment 747939

I was looking something up for the Michkov thread but thought I'd share the top 10 in KHL scoring today. Riley Barber is a 29 year old who played 4 NHL games and was drafted in round 6. David Sklenicka in top 10 scoring almost floored me. Good player but he's not that good. Same team as Barber so these two must be cooking!

Kind of neat as the Top 10 has 5 Russians and 5 non Russians in it. Gusev was a guy I thought would tear the NHL up tbh.

Barber is also a former Team USA captain at the World Juniors where he outscored Jack Eichel, but more important is that he was able to produce at around ppg pace for like 5 last AHL seasons, so not really too surprising that he is finding success in the KHL too.

Sklenicka is indeed a surprise, I didn't thought that he has some attacking skills there (although apparently he discovered those last season, judging by his stat line), I wouldn't expect him to maintain that pace, but since he is Barys' top D now with the corresponding PP time it is reasonable to expect something like over 0.6 ppg this season from him.

 

[Czechboy]

Barber is also a former Team USA captain at the World Juniors where he outscored Jack Eichel, but more important is that he was able to produce at around ppg pace for like 5 last AHL seasons, so not really too surprising that he is finding success in the KHL too.

Sklenicka is indeed a surprise, I didn't thought that he has some attacking skills there (although apparently he discovered those last season, judging by his stat line), I wouldn't expect him to maintain that pace, but since he is Barys' top D now with the corresponding PP time it is reasonable to expect something like over 0.6 ppg this season from him.

Barber was a good JR and a great AHL player. I think outscoring a 2 year younger than (1994 vs 1996 birth years) him Eichel (5 pts in 5 games vs 6pts in 5 games) may be his claim to fame outside of leading the KHL in scoring. He got 1 point for the US at a Skoda's recently. Eichel won a Cup last year. 1st rounder vs 6th rounder. They are not on the same planet and time has shown that.

No way Sklenicka keeps that up. .6 would be nice for him. Not sure he does that. Happy for him though.. I was never a fan of his and always happy to be wrong on a Czech player. He's played everywhere.lol

 

[Caser]

Barber was a good JR and a great AHL player. I think outscoring a 2 year younger than (1994 vs 1996 birth years) him Eichel (5 pts in 5 games vs 6pts in 5 games) may be his claim to fame outside of leading the KHL in scoring. He got 1 point for the US at a Skoda's recently. Eichel won a Cup last year. 1st rounder vs 6th rounder. They are not on the same planet and time has shown that.

No way Sklenicka keeps that up. .6 would be nice for him. Not sure he does that. Happy for him though.. I was never a fan of his and always happy to be wrong on a Czech player. He's played everywhere.lol

Yeah, just I meant that at the time of the 2014 WJC him being the 6th round pick was considered a steal back then. But anyway, a perfect example of the "excellent in the AHL, not good enough for the NHL" type of players and that exactly the type KHL teams are actively searching for nowadays.

Also with Sklenicka his pace will likely be affected by Alex Grant's return from injury, as usually he was their PP guy, but maybe he will be too good to take that away from him.

 

[Czechboy]

Yeah, just I meant that at the time of the 2014 WJC him being the 6th round pick was considered a steal back then. But anyway, a perfect example of the "excellent in the AHL, not good enough for the NHL" type of players and that exactly the type KHL teams are actively searching for nowadays.

Also with Sklenicka his pace will likely be affected by Alex Grant's return from injury, as usually he was their PP guy, but maybe he will be too good to take that away from him.

We will see... I'd say he is the 10th best Czech dman in Europe and we don't have very good dman in Europe (or the NHL).lol

 

[Caser]

We will see... I'd say he is the 10th best Czech dman in Europe and we don't have very good dman in Europe (or the NHL).lol

Interesting, I had thought of him as of 6th/7th with Kempny, Klok, Knot, Sulak and Jerabek ahead of him and Kostalek more or less on par, who am I missing?

 

[Czechboy]

Interesting, I had thought of him as of 6th/7th with Kempny, Klok, Knot, Sulak and Jerabek ahead of him and Kostalek more or less on par, who am I missing?

He's on par with a bunch of guys like Jordan, kundratek, moravcik, musil and Scotka. None of them would I say are awesome.lol.

Oh wait... galvas and Kral are back in Europe... they are better than everyone mentioned here. They are actually promising and good. So he is in the 8 to 12 range for Europe to me.