Best league outside NHL

[Mortimer Snerd]

I love the Canadian game, but please. When the MOP can’t crack a roster ANYWHERE in the NFL the CFL looks pretty bush.

Not really. The games are different enough that different characteristics are required at some positions. But mostly, it speaks to the depth of talented athletes available. The CFL players are really, really good athletes and players. The NFL ones are even better.

 

[Garl]

What are you going on about? Sorry. I didn’t dodge anything. I’ve acknowledged the Swiss league imports are good, but they are limited. The reason NL is not a top league is the Swiss domestic player pool that accounts for nearly 2/3 of the league is not very good. I’ve explained this countless times. Yea, the KHL offers the best salaries and so it attracts the top Canadians. This has been the case for a while.

They pay the best, have access to the best canadians and sign Kosmachuk and Fiore. And Liska instead of some loser like Audette

Yes, you guys are dodging. 3 imports per team, 20 teams instead of 14, no access to euros, and euro talent is def larger compared to NA in Europe. Khl is not a 2nd best league anymore, it is in a tier with SHL and NL.

 

[WarriorofTime]

They pay the best, have access to the best canadians and sign Kosmachuk and Fiore. And Liska instead of some loser like Audette

Yes, you guys are dodging. 3 imports per team, 20 teams instead of 14, no access to euros, and euro talent is def larger compared to NA in Europe. Khl is not a 2nd best league anymore, it is in a tier with SHL and NL.

Get over yourself. KHL euros went from like 20 % of league to 4 % of league. You guys keep over-dramatizing it. They brought in more Canadians and a bit more Russians got more promoted. The league didn’t systemically collapse because some Swedes and Finns had to go make less money back home.

 

[Albatros]

Oh you speak for all of Sweden

Yeah, I dare to say so. The CHL is more than enough international club hockey at the moment and we just had a bunch of games between relevant teams:

Stavanger 2:4 Färjestad, 2,694 spectators (Stavanger EHL average: 3,502)
Stavanger 6:7 (so) Växjö, 2,281 spectators
Växjö 5:2 Aalborg, 2,666 spectators (Växjö SHL average: 4,760)
Färjestad 8:0 Aalborg, 1,619 spectators (Färjestad SHL average: 7,296)

 

[vorky]

Get over yourself. KHL euros went from like 20 % of league to 4 % of league. You guys keep over-dramatizing it. They brought in more Canadians and a bit more Russians got more promoted. The league didn’t systemically collapse because some Swedes and Finns had to go make less money back home.

Our friend ignores facts which do not fit his opinion. It is not so important what is a status quo, especially if it is a temporary thing. The most important is a trend, long-term trend. Top Euros will come back to KHL sooner than later, it is just a matter of money and time. So, the trend is as follows, but yeah, our friend dislikes it. The KHL has the best infrastructure in European hockey, the league is miles ahead of the rest of Europe. The KHL has the biggest budgets and salaries, again, miles ahead of Europe. Soon the lowest salaries budget (salary floor) for KHL club will be on a level of top European clubs while KHL club´s salary ceiling is even higher. And .... lesss and less KHL clubs are on a level of salary floor, the poorest clubs are climbing to the league´s average. The paradox is that while the KHL has lost revenues from the sale of TV rights to Europe, its revenues from television rights has increased. And it will rise every season. Again, our friend will dislike it but the socio-economic enviroment is very important for a success of any league. So, I will repeat myself. Europe is going into decades of regress, insecurity and impoverishment. This fact will affect the hockey in Europe. It would be more correct to say that this scenario is more likely in countries in Western & Northern part of the continent. While I am not saying that Russia will be super good, just wanting to point it out.

 

[WarriorofTime]

league lost more than half of their premier talent.

If you are just going to outright lie, then please just exit the discussion

 

[Garl]

If you are just going to outright lie, then please just exit the discussion

And again I refer you to the TOP 100 in scoring before 2022. Around half of those guys are not in the league now due to politics.

You have no argument against the points I made, at best you guys are going for rather meaningless technical details like it was not 70% imports in TOP 100 but 60%.

Main points
1.Euros were the majority of quality imports, and they are gone now, and were never replaced
2.New limit is 3 players per team, so foreign impact went from 100 players to like 50.
3.League has 20 teams, way more than SHL or NL

The point about canadians who substituted is weak. There is a reason why some teams do not fill their 3 man import quota, even though before 22 everybody had 5 imports. Market has a very little amount of quality, teams sign Kosmachuks and Luke Johnsons not out of a good life you know. And it is quite telling that Ak Bars has no imports ex russian czech Jaskin, because they just cant find quality canadians and would not waste their roster spot on mediocre guys who are avaliable

 

[Hanji]

And again I refer you to the TOP 100 in scoring before 2022. Around half of those guys are not in the league now due to politics.

You have no argument against the points I made, at best you guys are going for rather meaningless technical details like it was not 70% imports in TOP 100 but 60%.

Main points
1.Euros were the majority of quality imports, and they are gone now, and were never replaced
2.New limit is 3 players per team, so foreign impact went from 100 players to like 50.
3.League has 20 teams, way more than SHL or NL

The point about canadians who substituted is weak. There is a reason why some teams do not fill their 3 man import quota, even though before 22 everybody had 5 imports. Market has a very little amount of quality, teams sign Kosmachuks and Luke Johnsons not out of a good life you know. And it is quite telling that Ak Bars has no imports ex russian czech Jaskin, because they just cant find quality canadians and would not waste their roster spot on mediocre guys who are avaliable

Meaningless details? You falsely added an extra 20% +. That’s a significant amount.
You would not need to continuously lie if your opinion was valid.

As I already illustrated, if we use your own criteria (top 100 scoring ratios), the KHL has lost roughly 20% of its quality talent depth.
This likely isn’t enough for the NL or SHL to surpass it.

 

[The Gr8 Dane]

SHL>KHL

 

[vorky]

Just listening to Slovan Bratislava owner who says that Extraliga clubs have awful infrastructure, arenas. As I said above ...

 

[Fatass]

SHL>KHL

The KHL used to be a lot better. Clearly it’s fallen behind a couple other Euro leagues for depth of players and clubs.

 

[The Gr8 Dane]

The KHL used to be a lot better. Clearly it’s fallen behind a couple other Euro leagues for depth of players and clubs.

100% KHL used to be undisputed best euro league , I'm sure they will get back there in the future , just some trying times right now

 

[Czechboy]

100% KHL used to be undisputed best euro league , I'm sure they will get back there in the future , just some trying times right now

The Russian posters insist it is not a significant drop. I don't agree but that is what I'm consistently reading and they would know better than me. Even above, a poster pointed out the KHL is poised to take over all of Europe.

 

[Gold Standard]

The Russian posters insist it is not a significant drop. I don't agree but that is what I'm consistently reading and they would know better than me. Even above, a poster pointed out the KHL is poised to take over all of Europe.

LOL. Any you believe that gibberish? Good lord Almighty.

 

[Czechboy]

LOL. Any you believe that gibberish? Good lord Almighty.

I don't recall saying I believed it.lol

BTW.. you should go to the Michkov thread in prospects. I think you'd have a fun time! Great reading.lol

 

[Zine]

The Russian posters insist it is not a significant drop. I don't agree but that is what I'm consistently reading and they would know better than me. Even above, a poster pointed out the KHL is poised to take over all of Europe.

I don't recall saying I believed it.lol

BTW.. you should go to the Michkov thread in prospects. I think you'd have a fun time! Great reading.lol

The Michkov thread is loaded primarily with Flyers fans....... coupled with a neurotic poster with a xenophobia issue. Not sure what that's gotta do with ""Russian gibberish"" like you might be insinuating. But who knows. Perhaps the city of Philadelphia has turned to the darkside.

 

[Czechboy]

The Michkov thread is loaded primarily with Flyers fans....... coupled with a neurotic poster with a xenophobia issue. Not sure what that's gotta do with ""Russian gibberish"" like you might be insinuating. But who knows. Perhaps the city of Philadelphia has turned to the darkside.

Not sure where you got Russian Gibberish from.. I said the thread is hillarious. Another hit is Kirivarjhu (mispelt). Lambert used to be a gold mine too. Note: not calling those Finnish Gibberish either. Good reads though.

 

[WarriorofTime]

I've run the numbers a good number of times but happy to do so again

2021-22 GP breakdown by Nationality compared to 2023-24 GP breakdown by nationality and % change (source is Quanthockey)

Russia 62.5 % -> 73.9 % (+11.4 %)
Canada 8.0 % -> 9.6 % (+1.6 %)
Finland 6.1 % -> 0.0 % (-6.1 %)
Sweden 5.7 % -> 0.8 % (-4.9 %)
Belarus 4.7 % -> 5.6 % (+0.9 %)
Czech Republic 3.1 % -> 1.1 % (-2.0 %)
Latvia 2.6 % -> 0.1 % (-2.5 %)
United States 2.3 % -> 2.8 % (+0.5 %)
Kazakhstan 2.2 % -> 3.7 % (+1.5 %)
Slovakia 1.2 % -> 1.2 % (+0.0 %)
China 0.5 % -> 0.0 % (-0.5 %)
Denmark 0.3 % -> 0.0 % (-0.3 %)
Germany 0.3 % -> 0.4 % (+0.1 %)
Lithuania 0.3 % -> 0.2% (-0.1 %)
Estonia 0.2 % -> 0.0 % (-0.2 %)
France 0.2 % -> 0.2 % (+0.0 %)
Ukraine 0.0 % (1 player with 6 GP) -> 0.0 % (1 player with 2 GP) (+0.0 %)
Croatia 0.0 % -> 0.2 % (+0.2 %)
Slovenia 0.0 % -> 0.1 % (+0.1 %)
Japan 0.0 % -> 0.0 % (1 player with 1 GP) (+0.00 %)

Summary:

"Europe" (Finland, Sweden, Czech Republic, Latvia, Slovakia, Denmark, Germany, Lithuania, Estonia, France, Ukraine, Croatia, Slovenia): 20.0 % ->
4.3 % (-15.7 %)

"Russia and its allies" (Russia, Belarus, Kazakhstan): 69.4 % -> 83.2 % (+13.8 %)

"North America" (Canada and USA): 10.3 % -> 12.4 % (+2.1 %)

"Asia" (China and Japan): 0.5 % -> 0.0 % (-0.5 %)

 

[Garl]

Meaningless details? You falsely added an extra 20% +. That’s a significant amount.
You would not need to continuously lie if your opinion was valid.

As I already illustrated, if we use your own criteria (top 100 scoring ratios), the KHL has lost roughly 20% of its quality talent depth.
This likely isn’t enough for the NL or SHL to surpass it.

Yes, it is technical detail, doesnt change the core of the argument. And I didnt lie, I was slightly incorrect about %(since I didnt look it up and was talking from memory), but I am right about the situation.

So 2021
TOP 30 had 19 imports, 10 euros
Top 50 had 30 imports, 16 euros
Top 100 had 49 imports 30 euros

2022

Top 30 18 imports 8 euros
Top 50 29 imports 15 euros
Top 100 53 imports 29 euros

Now, I did not count blr and kaz players as imports.

So, around 30% of top scorers are gone. For top 5 for Top 30 even more. Out of NA players, a lot of their top guys are gone aswell so yeah around a half of top players gone. If we break it down by teams it will look even worse.

 

[vorky]

Research on arenas in European hockey

Note: Add a new over 10,000 seats arena in Brno, Czech rep. They started the construction a few days ago.

 

[Garl]

Now, idividual teams, and we only look at russian teams, foreign teams confuse the numbers greatly
In 2021

Let's say TOP quality players would be 6 per team, starting goalie, first pairing D, and 3 top scoring forwards

Ak Bars- Da Costa, Dawes, Azevedo, Yarullin, Pedan, Reideborn- 3 guys out of 6 out of the league
Amur- T.Zohorna, H.Zohorna, Butuzov, Jordan, Masin, Alikin- 5 out of 6
Avangard- Boucher, Tolchinsky, Knight, Kaski, Pokka, Hrubec- 4 out of 6
Avtomobilist-Makeyev, Datsyuk, Holland, Vasilevsky, Genoway, Kovar 3 out of 6(Honestly should be 4 out of 6, Makeyev was a product of Datsyuk, and Datsyuk retired now)
CSKA- Okulov, Slepyshev, Shalunov, Robinson, Dahlbeck, Johansson 3 out of 6
Dynamo-Shipachyov, Jaskin, Lindberg, Sergeyev, Mironov, Yeryomenko 1 out of 6
Sochi-Shmelyov, Stromwall, Tochitsky, Miromanov, Rundblad, Kulbakov 2 out of 6
Lokomotiv-Pettersson, Kraskovsky, Pulkkinen, Marchenko, Rafikov, Pasquale 2 out of 6
Metallurg-Beck, Plotnikov, Chibisov, Yakovlev, Holm, Olkinuora 2 out of 6
Neftekhimik-Hudacek, Poryadin, Khairullin, Volgin, Rantakari, Ivannikov 2 out of 6
Salavat Yulaev- Hartikainen, Granlund, Manninen, Larsen, Panin, Metsola 5 out of 6
Severstal- Petunin, Kodola, Nattinen, Provolnev, Adamchuk, Podyapolsky 1 out of 6
Sibir-Ruohomaa, Puustinen, Li, Jokipakka, Gurkin, Sateri 4 out of 6
SKA-Tkachyov, Kuzmenko, Burdasov, Ozhiganov, Bengtsson, Hellberg 2 out of 6
Spartak-Lehtera, Shirokov, Hanzl, Rylov, Djuse, Hudacek 4 out of 6
Torpedo-Zhafyarov, Miele, Chekhovich, Austin, Wideman, Tikhomirov 3 out of 6
Traktor-Hyka, Sedlak, Byvaltsev, Pilut, Bailen, Will 5 out of 6
Vityaz- Tedenby, Danforth, Daugavins, Jerabek, Hultstrom, Yezhov 5 out of 6

Overall: 56 out of 114. That is basically 50%

We can do the same for starting goalie, TOP 4 defenseman, TOP 6 forward, % will go down a bit, but will remain way higher than 20%, smth around 40%

That's a huge drop. And no, they were not substituted properly, one thing is that 3 imports instead of five, another is that low mediocre canadians cant substitute best euros and a lot of top euro canadians. Finally, they have 1 more team to feed now.

 

[Garl]

I've run the numbers a good number of times but happy to do so again

2021-22 GP breakdown by Nationality compared to 2023-24 GP breakdown by nationality and % change (source is Quanthockey)

Russia 62.5 % -> 73.9 % (+11.4 %)
Canada 8.0 % -> 9.6 % (+1.6 %)
Finland 6.1 % -> 0.0 % (-6.1 %)
Sweden 5.7 % -> 0.8 % (-4.9 %)
Belarus 4.7 % -> 5.6 % (+0.9 %)
Czech Republic 3.1 % -> 1.1 % (-2.0 %)
Latvia 2.6 % -> 0.1 % (-2.5 %)
United States 2.3 % -> 2.8 % (+0.5 %)
Kazakhstan 2.2 % -> 3.7 % (+1.5 %)
Slovakia 1.2 % -> 1.2 % (+0.0 %)
China 0.5 % -> 0.0 % (-0.5 %)
Denmark 0.3 % -> 0.0 % (-0.3 %)
Germany 0.3 % -> 0.4 % (+0.1 %)
Lithuania 0.3 % -> 0.2% (-0.1 %)
Estonia 0.2 % -> 0.0 % (-0.2 %)
France 0.2 % -> 0.2 % (+0.0 %)
Ukraine 0.0 % (1 player with 6 GP) -> 0.0 % (1 player with 2 GP) (+0.0 %)
Croatia 0.0 % -> 0.2 % (+0.2 %)
Slovenia 0.0 % -> 0.1 % (+0.1 %)
Japan 0.0 % -> 0.0 % (1 player with 1 GP) (+0.00 %)

Summary:

"Europe" (Finland, Sweden, Czech Republic, Latvia, Slovakia, Denmark, Germany, Lithuania, Estonia, France, Ukraine, Croatia, Slovenia): 20.0 % ->
4.3 % (-15.7 %)

"Russia and its allies" (Russia, Belarus, Kazakhstan): 69.4 % -> 83.2 % (+13.8 %)

"North America" (Canada and USA): 10.3 % -> 12.4 % (+2.1 %)

"Asia" (China and Japan): 0.5 % -> 0.0 % (-0.5 %)

Total numers are useless, they don't indicate the difference in quality, KHL is not NHL, a random swedish KHLer from 2021 was a top 2 defenseman or TOP 6 forward for his team, a random russian or kazakh player is a bottom liner.

You are acting as if just some random 15 out of 100 players left the league, but those were not random players, they were almost all high impact players.

 

[Caser]

Now, idividual teams, and we only look at russian teams, foreign teams confuse the numbers greatly
In 2021

Let's say TOP quality players would be 6 per team, starting goalie, first pairing D, and 3 top scoring forwards

Ak Bars- Da Costa, Dawes, Azevedo, Yarullin, Pedan, Reideborn- 3 guys out of 6 out of the league
Amur- T.Zohorna, H.Zohorna, Butuzov, Jordan, Masin, Alikin- 5 out of 6
Avangard- Boucher, Tolchinsky, Knight, Kaski, Pokka, Hrubec- 4 out of 6
Avtomobilist-Makeyev, Datsyuk, Holland, Vasilevsky, Genoway, Kovar 3 out of 6(Honestly should be 4 out of 6, Makeyev was a product of Datsyuk, and Datsyuk retired now)
CSKA- Okulov, Slepyshev, Shalunov, Robinson, Dahlbeck, Johansson 3 out of 6
Dynamo-Shipachyov, Jaskin, Lindberg, Sergeyev, Mironov, Yeryomenko 1 out of 6
Sochi-Shmelyov, Stromwall, Tochitsky, Miromanov, Rundblad, Kulbakov 2 out of 6
Lokomotiv-Pettersson, Kraskovsky, Pulkkinen, Marchenko, Rafikov, Pasquale 2 out of 6
Metallurg-Beck, Plotnikov, Chibisov, Yakovlev, Holm, Olkinuora 2 out of 6
Neftekhimik-Hudacek, Poryadin, Khairullin, Volgin, Rantakari, Ivannikov 2 out of 6
Salavat Yulaev- Hartikainen, Granlund, Manninen, Larsen, Panin, Metsola 5 out of 6
Severstal- Petunin, Kodola, Nattinen, Provolnev, Adamchuk, Podyapolsky 1 out of 6
Sibir-Ruohomaa, Puustinen, Li, Jokipakka, Gurkin, Sateri 4 out of 6
SKA-Tkachyov, Kuzmenko, Burdasov, Ozhiganov, Bengtsson, Hellberg 2 out of 6
Spartak-Lehtera, Shirokov, Hanzl, Rylov, Djuse, Hudacek 4 out of 6
Torpedo-Zhafyarov, Miele, Chekhovich, Austin, Wideman, Tikhomirov 3 out of 6
Traktor-Hyka, Sedlak, Byvaltsev, Pilut, Bailen, Will 5 out of 6
Vityaz- Tedenby, Danforth, Daugavins, Jerabek, Hultstrom, Yezhov 5 out of 6

Overall: 56 out of 114. That is basically 50%

We can do the same for starting goalie, TOP 4 defenseman, TOP 6 forward, % will go down a bit, but will remain way higher than 20%, smth around 40%

That's a huge drop. And no, they were not substituted properly, one thing is that 3 imports instead of five, another is that low mediocre canadians cant substitute best euros and a lot of top euro canadians. Finally, they have 1 more team to feed now.

Depends on what to call mediocre: Chmelevski can't substitute all the Salavat's Finns, but he looked better than any of them; Jeremy Roy has made Kemilainen not missed like at all, same can be said about Joey Keane replacing Tim Heed etc. - there are a lot of quality guys in the AHL, who are not getting the NHL opportunities, but are not willing to ride the bus all career long, not to mention that in general they look more passionate and motivated about hockey comparing to a lot of Euros who we have seen in the KHL.

 

[Garl]

Depends on what to call mediocre: Chmelevski can't substitute all the Salavat's Finns, but he looked better than any of them; Jeremy Roy has made Kemilainen not missed like at all, same can be said about Joey Keane replacing Tim Heed etc. - there are a lot of quality guys in the AHL, who are not getting the NHL opportunities, but are not willing to ride the bus all career long, not to mention that in general they look more passionate and motivated about hockey comparing to a lot of Euros who we have seen in the KHL.

Chmelevski looks better tham Hartikainen or Granlund? LOL, no. I wouldnt even rate him above Manninen.
Roy is probably better than Kemilainen, but Barach is def worse than Aaltonen for example.
Keane and Heed are roughly on the same level. But previously both would be in KHL, now only Keane

 

[Caser]

Chmelevski looks better tham Hartikainen or Granlund? LOL, no. I wouldnt even rate him above Manninen.
Roy is probably better than Kemilainen, but Barach is def worse than Aaltonen for example.
Keane and Heed are roughly on the same level. But previously both would be in KHL, now only Keane

You probably didn't watch Salavat in 2021/22, Finns there looked just lackluster (yet with Lamsa as the coach they could do anything without any demotion from the top line), Chmelevski's dynamic style that was especially there in the second half of last season was a breath of fresh air.

Barach looks like a miss at this point (but again, we're talking about just 12 games into the season), but Vityaz is a disaster so far this season, maybe he will be better when they'll finally hire a proper coach (no idea why they decided to fire Butsayev after the last season).

As for "previously both would be" I have doubts about that, as it is not like a 5 import player limit wasn't there - so maybe, but also maybe not.