Caser
Moderator
Yeah, kind of forgot about the ones who returned, they should be better, also Sustr is back from NA, maybe he still got some gas in him.
Best league outside NHL
- Thread starter Czechboy
- Start date
I’ve addressed your argument. YOU inadvertently proved the KHL was the 2nd best league.
Nobody needs to make the case for the KHL; you did it for everybody. It’s a 20% reduction.
It’s why you needed to falsify statistics. It’s why you needed to concoct an entirely new argument after you were caught lying.
Czechboy
Náš f*cken barák!
- Apr 15, 2018
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They all kind of suck... hard to distinguish between them. Sustr and Masin would be two more.
Basically average AHL players. Sweden we are not.haha
Czechboy
Náš f*cken barák!
- Apr 15, 2018
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And I should say.. I like all of them. But I have no argument to suggest any of them are great or belong in NHL. Hoping galvas and Kral work their way back but I doubt they will and both are off to poor starts pointwise.
"Lying" bs is just your excuse to dodge an argument thay you obvioisly cant win. It is a manipulative low blow that adds nothing to the discussion and turns it into personal bickering.
Again, it is simple, dont dodge, how is a league with 20 domestic teams stronger than 14 teams league, when KHL has strict 3 man import limit and cant sign euros and big portion of NA players?
Euro exodus is too complicated, with you guys we def need to start from very basics
Oh yes, I did not make a ranking
1. NHL- obvious
2. SHL- very narrow gap between 2 and 3rd, very strong development system, almost 100 imports
3. NL- Very strong imports
4.KHL- Oversized and strict import limit, closed
5. AHL- development league, somewhat run and hit style
6.Liiga- relatively poor, closed, but strong development system
7.DEL-lots of quality imports, plus germans are getting better
8.Extraliga-underrated, czechs are getting back, so it will be better in future
1. NHL- obvious
2. SHL- very narrow gap between 2 and 3rd, very strong development system, almost 100 imports
3. NL- Very strong imports
4.KHL- Oversized and strict import limit, closed
5. AHL- development league, somewhat run and hit style
6.Liiga- relatively poor, closed, but strong development system
7.DEL-lots of quality imports, plus germans are getting better
8.Extraliga-underrated, czechs are getting back, so it will be better in future
WarriorofTime
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lol, SHL pays like 1/3 of the salaries of the KHL. They have a very similar percentage of domestic players. Then you have NLA, that also has strict import limits, a similar domestic player percentage and a domestic player pool that is awful.
Truly awful list. KHL and AHL are close. They are the clear cut best two not in the NHL. KHL takes the edge due to not having a developmental player limit.
If you're genuinely interested in the quality and depth of each player pool you should be looking at absolute numbers rather than percentages.
For example in the case of Swiss hockey the 500th best Swiss player likely plays not in the NL or even the SL, but in the third-tier MyHL, whereas the 500th Russian player is still in the KHL.
Ok, salaries are irrelevant, because nobody actually competes for russian players, so the only demographic that is affected are the foreigners, so potentially you could maybe say that this 3 foreigners make the difference, but it is not the case, we see russian teams signing Derech Barach, Giovannie Fiore, Scott Kosmachuk, Troy Joesphs, Colby Williams and Adam Liska. Those are Not the best options on the market for the 3 times SHL salary.
Now, domestic % is not equal. Russia has 3 man import limit. So, obviously you add Kunlun, Minsk and Barys and thats how you arrive at "similar domestic %". For russian teams it is not similar. 20 russian teams have 60 imports, 14 swedish teams have like 90+, even if we take out juniors it is still like 6 foreign players for Sweden and 3 for Russia. Quality of russian imports is on average higher, but cant make up for the fact that they have 6 more teams to fill.
Adding Kunlun and other foreign teams makes no sense, by this logic this 3 teams greatly improve KHL by dropping general russian numbers down and adding some ECHL level canadians which does not make any sense at all.
Remember, Sweden and Russia are at least equal in terms of player develolment, even if we grant that Sweden has 80 players abroad, that in russian case are all in KHL(hard to believe honestly) it still leaves KHL with deficit of 70 players due to league size.
In current circumstances the only way you can argue for KHL>SHL is by denying the Sweden=Russia premise, but then, you have an uphill battle.
I can make a case for NL aswell, I mean 130(ok maybe closer to 100 if we take out some bottom liners and juniors) imports for 14 teams vs 60 for 20, just how awful you think swiss players are? And why this horrible swiss guys were doing rather well at WC and were often beating Russia-2 teams(with NHL level talent on board if we are to believe the 80 NHLers in KHL line from above) with non optimal rosters?
High level Imports in NL are also better on
average than the KHL ones, at least Josephses or Kosmachuks are not leading their NL teams.
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WarriorofTime
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Have you actually looked at Kunlun's roster? Hint, it's not very native born Chinese these days.
I've never shat on the Swedish development system, there is only one of us that has a reputation around here for hating every player of a certain nationality.
Swedes, unlike Russians, are very scattered. Let's look across the NHL and the Big 7 European Leagues.
246 Swedes in SHL
32 Swedes in Liiga
25 Swedes in NLA
8 Swedes in DEL
4 Swedes in KHL
4 Swedes in Slovak ExtraLiga
2 Swedes in Czech ExtraLiga
Exact numbers on NHL and AHL (which are always tricky because of how much double counting goes into that) are not known because those seasons have not started. Last year, 107 Swedes appeared in an at least 1 NHL game and 94 Swedes appeared in at least 1 AHL game. Obviously before the Swedes left the KHL, there were a decent number there as well, which peaked at 39 Swedes that appeared in a KHL game in 2021-22, just before invasion.
There are more KHL teams, but there are also more feeder junior teams (31 MHL teams vs. 20 J20 teams) to "feed the beast". There are 103,000 registered hockey players in Russia and 61,547 registered hockey players in Sweden. There is simply a broader player base to create professional players. That isn't the sort of thing that is going to be all that heavily reflected in Olympics, Skoda, J20 or J18 results which only needs a few players from the "elite" feeder programs to emerge, but matters a lot more for the total number of pro players.
From an infrastructure standpoint, the KHL is pretty miles ahead of any league on that side of the Atlantic. A couple years ago, it wasn't all that close when a number of top Swedes, Finns and Czechs were playing in the KHL. The infrastructure of the League hasn't changed. The talent pool did take a hit, which I've acknowledged numerous times. However, I have actually run the numbers, countless times, no matter how times someone wants to argue about it, the number is 20 %. All the huffing and puffing won't change that's what the statistics show.
Is that a big effect? Sure, it's an effect. Is it a dramatic collapse? Not really. Naming a specific player that has 15 points in 14 games for a team that has returned to the KHL for the first time in six years doesn't really prove anything. It's a player taking advantage of an opportunity, good on him. If you follow Hockey, you know this is the sort of thing that happens. This very board of devoted Hockey fans was blindsided not once, but twice in recent years by Expansion NHL Franchises giving third liners and waiver fodder more opportunity and then seeing those guys play well. Will he keep it up, will Lada remain competitive? Who knows, maybe, a 26.5 % shooting percentage probably suggests some regression is coming.
If we're just gonna pick on specific players and sh*t on them to degrade league quality - Sam Vigneault had 63 points in 190 career AHL games, and 16 points in 57 games in his last go-around in 2019-20, early goings have him PPG on MODO. Riley Woods has 34 AHL career games, compared to 57 career ECHL games before he went to Sweden, and he's also PPG for Modo. Brendan Shinnimin is suddenly making an impact on Lulea after a lackluster career to date.
I've never shat on the Swedish development system, there is only one of us that has a reputation around here for hating every player of a certain nationality.
Swedes, unlike Russians, are very scattered. Let's look across the NHL and the Big 7 European Leagues.
246 Swedes in SHL
32 Swedes in Liiga
25 Swedes in NLA
8 Swedes in DEL
4 Swedes in KHL
4 Swedes in Slovak ExtraLiga
2 Swedes in Czech ExtraLiga
Exact numbers on NHL and AHL (which are always tricky because of how much double counting goes into that) are not known because those seasons have not started. Last year, 107 Swedes appeared in an at least 1 NHL game and 94 Swedes appeared in at least 1 AHL game. Obviously before the Swedes left the KHL, there were a decent number there as well, which peaked at 39 Swedes that appeared in a KHL game in 2021-22, just before invasion.
There are more KHL teams, but there are also more feeder junior teams (31 MHL teams vs. 20 J20 teams) to "feed the beast". There are 103,000 registered hockey players in Russia and 61,547 registered hockey players in Sweden. There is simply a broader player base to create professional players. That isn't the sort of thing that is going to be all that heavily reflected in Olympics, Skoda, J20 or J18 results which only needs a few players from the "elite" feeder programs to emerge, but matters a lot more for the total number of pro players.
From an infrastructure standpoint, the KHL is pretty miles ahead of any league on that side of the Atlantic. A couple years ago, it wasn't all that close when a number of top Swedes, Finns and Czechs were playing in the KHL. The infrastructure of the League hasn't changed. The talent pool did take a hit, which I've acknowledged numerous times. However, I have actually run the numbers, countless times, no matter how times someone wants to argue about it, the number is 20 %. All the huffing and puffing won't change that's what the statistics show.
Is that a big effect? Sure, it's an effect. Is it a dramatic collapse? Not really. Naming a specific player that has 15 points in 14 games for a team that has returned to the KHL for the first time in six years doesn't really prove anything. It's a player taking advantage of an opportunity, good on him. If you follow Hockey, you know this is the sort of thing that happens. This very board of devoted Hockey fans was blindsided not once, but twice in recent years by Expansion NHL Franchises giving third liners and waiver fodder more opportunity and then seeing those guys play well. Will he keep it up, will Lada remain competitive? Who knows, maybe, a 26.5 % shooting percentage probably suggests some regression is coming.
If we're just gonna pick on specific players and sh*t on them to degrade league quality - Sam Vigneault had 63 points in 190 career AHL games, and 16 points in 57 games in his last go-around in 2019-20, early goings have him PPG on MODO. Riley Woods has 34 AHL career games, compared to 57 career ECHL games before he went to Sweden, and he's also PPG for Modo. Brendan Shinnimin is suddenly making an impact on Lulea after a lackluster career to date.
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Kunlun as the Chinese national team finished 3rd behind Japan and Ukraine at the third-tier Division IB World Championships this year. Also lost 2:7 to the Netherlands. Even their imported players aren't very good.
WarriorofTime
Registered User
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Voodoozz
Czechmate
How so? Liiga and TELH have been on par for the last 5 years or so. Overall player quality is very similar.
Their roster consists of mediocre NA players. Thing is though, you use them in your calculatiuons, but you shouldn't. They just hire some AHL/ECHL level talent to fill their roster, it does not improve the quality of the league. If you want to count domestic % take out foreign teams in KHL, which of course drop the overall russian number and see the results.
We shall see about that
The only relevant number here is 25 swedes in NLA. Because due to higher paycheck in Switzerland some good SHL quality players go there. Rest is not relevant, those guys are either not good enough or at least replaceable in SHL, thats why they are not in SHL in the first place.
As I remember there were around 140 players from Sweden in NHL/AHL to 70 russians. 70 players more. Of course before the SMO, swedes playing in KHL weere a factor, but we are not in Kansas anymore.
Russia is a bigger country, just the fact that they have more junior teams means nothing. Djurgarden or Frolunda produced more NHLers in last 15 years than half of those russian teams combined.
Ok, so you have said you never "shat" on swedish system, but what are you doing here? You are saying that Russia produces way more quality players than Sweden. Where is the evidence that Sweden produces less talent? Every year Sweden has more players drafted, and Sweden easily outnumbers Russia in terms of NHL representation. Are we to believe that those russians just stay home? Where are they then? Why are they not dominating the domestic league? by your logic there should be at least like 100 NHL quality russian players in KHL
Where is the evidence that Russia is a better(in terms of quantity) talent producer?
Ok, so about the numbers. Take a look here
Hockey growing across the globe
Hockey is growing world wide according to the IIHF's annual survey of players. Canada and the United States lead the way in most categories, but there are some surprising facts in the data as well.
www.sbnation.com
This are the numbers from 10 years ago. Notice smth?
Magic happened, and in Russia they got from 66 000 to 103 000 players in just 10 years!
Numbers are highly inflated, you have to explain, was KHL worse than SHL 10 years ago when the overall number of players was the same between KHL and SHL and if now Russia has such advatnage, why we don't see it in the overall NHL representation, in the draft or on KHL scoresheet which was dominated by imports before February of 2022?
Also, is Japan really that good?
What means that you acknowledged that? You just mentioned it and moved on like nothing happened. Again, I made a list of pre 2022 teams and their high impact players, you can take a look, it is around half of top performers on russian teams that left.
Well, call it what you want, fact is that after that there is basically no argument for why KHL is better than SHL for example. Unless you want to challenge the point that Sweden is at least equal to Russia in terms of talent production.
What I have said is that money can't buy quality in Russia right now, with 3 times SHL salaries as you have said, the best some KHL teams could do were Kosmachuk, Josephs and Liska. Those are just not the best talent you can find for this money. Thats why the "KHL pays more" argument is not valid.
SelltheTeamFrancesco
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Bocephus86
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WarriorofTime
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I've literally shown percent of points already.
The point is that Swedes scatter, Russians stay in KHL/VHL if they aren't in North America.
Exactly, Swedes are far more likely to leave Europe entirely than Russians.
This isn't about d*ck measuring the strength of any programs. The point is literal the quantity of Junior players in feeder programs for these leagues. It's just a bigger ecosystem.
Showing quantity of players is not a "shat" on the system. It's just numbers, lol. You even said yourself, Russia is a bigger picture.
No, I said they produce more professional players. That's just a fact, as seen by the number of overall professional players. I didn't say anything about who has higher quality.
They are in Russia. Again, you are missing the point. We are comparing KHL and SHL, not Russian Hockey Players vs. Swedish Hockey Players. More Russian guys just stay in the Russian system, MHL -> KHL/VHL and never deviate out of it, or will do a short stint in North America and come back home.
By what logic? Your anti-Russian bias is taking off again and you are on a total sidebar. The whole point was there are lot of Russian players to feed into the KHL. So having more teams doesn't automatically mean the quality is lower.
What, the numbers are a lie? Because you said so? I didn't audit the registered player numbers, did you? But why lie? But you are woefully ignorant as to the effects a stable KHL has had on overall sponsored youth hockey in Russia, which was quite a mess 20 years ago compared to now.
No..
Because Russians don't often operate in the North American ecosystem and often stay in KHL due to higher player salaries than the rest of the European leagues.
I gave real numbers, you just used some fast and loose method of calling half the "good" (by your standard definition) players in the league total amongst the 20 % of European players.
There is even less of an argument for why the SHL is better. I don't think you even tried.
Never said the development in Sweden was poor, I think your whole argument for the SHL was the Swedish development, so I guess it's your argument that the reverse is true?
Money may not be able to buy quality, but quality will often follow the money. If you don't understand that simple economic concept, you have more to learn than just European hockey leagues, lol
I see you've gone right back to the same talking point and completely ignored what I said on that. Notice how you completely dodged me bringing up top performing Canadian SHL players in the early going.
You mean that it used to be 60% in TOP 50 or TOP 100 and now it is 40%? Ok we will return to that
There are lots of russians playing in Kazakshtan or Poland do they count?
We can count how much more swedes are playing in NHL/AHL or NL. Rest is irrelevant. Number is as we counted around 80(40 more in NHL, 20 more in AHL and 20 in NL
Not so fast. When Canada or USA have bigger "ecosystems" and produce more quality players it is understandable despite subpar US performaces internationally. But you are insisting that Russia also produces more than Sweden. Is there any evidence outside the number of teams?
I mean MHL has been created like 12 years ago. What was before that? Russia had no J20 teams at all. Does it mean SHL was better than KHL in like 2010?
So again, any evidence outside of just number of MHL teams?
So, as I have said, that unless you go against Sweden=Russia in terms of the strength of their "base", which is roughly the number of good players, capable of playing in NHL/AHL/KHL/SHL/NL, you can't follow with your argument,
So, if your argument is that Russia produces more than Sweden then we need some explanation for this:
a)Why are there 40 more swedes in NHL? Your own money argument fails to explain this
b)So if there is lets say TOP 100 SWE players, and Russia produces more "quality" players due to it's size, Almost all of the 100 best swedes are in NHL or somwhere elese abroad, for Russia number is just 40, and 60 players are in Russia, then why is it the case, that before the invasion like half of starting goalies, 1st pairig defensemen and TOP 3 PPG forwards per team were foreigners? And that foreigners took around 50% of TOP 50 in scoring(for Russian teams only)?
Where is this russian NHL level talent that just decided to stay home?
Japan has more registered players than Slovakia. Numbers themselves are not a decisive evidence esp when Russia and Sweden had SAME number of players 10 years ago, and then russian numbers scyrocketed in last 10 years. Was the KHL worse than SHL 10 years ago? I mean, it had more teams, strict import limit, same arguments as now basically. Funny that 10 years agod russians had more than 50% in TOP 50 russian team scoring
By logic that "Russia produces more professional players and then it means, they have more players of KHL quality", naturally it should then mean, they have more players of NHL quality. If not, then why? We are talking about big numbers here there are 80 to 100 swedish players in NHL, depending on how you count. If Russia is better(due to it's size as you argue) at producing players, why it has 40 to 60 guys only? Numbers don't follow your logic. Then if that chain is broken, then why should we take for granted that the overall number of KHL-level players for Russia is higher than for Sweden? And significantly so, because as I have said, they have to cover for 6! extra teams
Is it the case that Sweden just magically produces more NHL level players, but if we step to KHL level Russia vastly outproduces Sweden? I mean, if we were talking about 10-15 players it would be possible, but we are talking about 100 players, those are big numbers.
As I have said, numbers skyrocketed in last 10 years, not 20. So, no, if you insist on this point, then you have to explain was the KHL weaker than SHL 10 years ago. Because your argument goes
- Russia has more players(10 to 6, or 5 to 3 ratio), so it has better base, so it has a better league, despite 6 extra teams and strong import limit
However what is your argument for 2012? Russia and Sweden had same amount of players, KHL was way bigger league(19 to 12) had strict import limit.
I mean, I used starting goalie, 1st pairing D-man, TOP 3 PPG for forwards, it's pretty transparent. Overall numbers in a strict import league are not a great indicator though.
Easy, 14 teams vs 20, same base(number of players good enough for KHL/SHL), no strict import limit.
Look above, I squized the argument to one sentence.
And this is the quality of discussion ladies and gentelmen.
What you are saying would make sense in an open system, but KHL isn't one. Who can they get with this money? 3 players. That's it. And as the evidence shows, they don't get the best player avaliable for this 3 import spots, because they have Liska, Kosmachuk, Fiore etc and some teams don't even use those spots at all.
Talking point was that if you "talent follows money" model was working, we would have seen better imports im KHL than what they have. Your model just doesn't work And the fact that you insist it does begs a certain question
What did I dodge in canadian/SHL thing again? Veronneau is better in SHL than AHL? Good for him I guess. I think you missed the point here
WarriorofTime
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Please actually reply to my points and stop engaging in some distractory 'whataboutism' where you start talking about Japan or 10 years ago or whatever else.
I literally can't reply because you don't reply, you just say "Well what about the number of registered players in Japan? This proves that the SHL is better"
I literally can't reply because you don't reply, you just say "Well what about the number of registered players in Japan? This proves that the SHL is better"
Yozhik v tumane
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Won’t follow this discussion backwards, from a brief look there are iffy arguments on both sides and you’re going around in circles with bad faith arguments trying to win the internet.
I’ll say that registered player numbers by country have been posted before in threads and they’re just plain hard to draw conclusions from. Japan having a high number of registered players should be a clue as to how it’s problematic using those numbers to compare the strength of different hockey programmes. Iirc it’s previously been explained that a lot of Japanese high schoolers and/or college students are in different sports programmes as well, but extremely few will pursue careers in them and the programmes are just not of the same quality (or purpose) as the Swedish elite hockey schools for example. At any rate, there are a lot of issues with differences in player registrations between countries and you’ll have to go about mapping these things out before drawing conclusions such as “more registrations = more players fed into pro teams”.
Personally, I don’t really know how to rate AHL v. KHL v. SHL v. NLA.
I think we’re at a pretty perfect number of teams in the SHL now to maintain a high standard from top to bottom, and an entertaining, competitive league throughout the season. That matters for me as a viewer.
The AHL is a developmental/feeder league first, so while its top talent may be way above that of the SHL for example, I don’t know how serious any comparison will be. There seems to be plenty of deeply flawed players who wouldn’t sniff the same ice time or role in the SHL that they do in the AHL on the one hand, but there are also many well rounded prospects and veterans without the upside to get to the NHL and stay there, who might excel in the SHL where grind, compete and sound two way instincts are appreciated, or where a lack of size isn’t as much of a hindrance as it may be in taking the leap to the NHL. I think it’s hard to compare the strength of the leagues when systems and philosophies differ so much.
The KHL didn’t entice me with the disparity between top and bottom teams before the invasion, and I think it’s fair to question its strength with the exodus of foreign players since. However it’s also fair to say that the number of absolute top-end players in the KHL probably blows any other Euro league out of the water, as Russia’s able to keep some names who would play top-six minutes in the NHL, and even superstars well into their 20s.
Lastly, since most of the top foreign talent in the KHL went to NLA, and they expanded the number of imports, I’ve been interested in seeing whether they’d close the gap with the SHL where I’ve thought there’s something to the idea of most teams being relatively top loaded, with average pros being comfortably below SHL level. I’m not sure they closed the gap yet, though.
For conclusion, I refuse to rank the leagues, but I do think the SHL is a great, entertaining league to follow. The downside is the success of Växjö and Örebro’s boring systems, and that the qualification process is too closed.
I’ll say that registered player numbers by country have been posted before in threads and they’re just plain hard to draw conclusions from. Japan having a high number of registered players should be a clue as to how it’s problematic using those numbers to compare the strength of different hockey programmes. Iirc it’s previously been explained that a lot of Japanese high schoolers and/or college students are in different sports programmes as well, but extremely few will pursue careers in them and the programmes are just not of the same quality (or purpose) as the Swedish elite hockey schools for example. At any rate, there are a lot of issues with differences in player registrations between countries and you’ll have to go about mapping these things out before drawing conclusions such as “more registrations = more players fed into pro teams”.
Personally, I don’t really know how to rate AHL v. KHL v. SHL v. NLA.
I think we’re at a pretty perfect number of teams in the SHL now to maintain a high standard from top to bottom, and an entertaining, competitive league throughout the season. That matters for me as a viewer.
The AHL is a developmental/feeder league first, so while its top talent may be way above that of the SHL for example, I don’t know how serious any comparison will be. There seems to be plenty of deeply flawed players who wouldn’t sniff the same ice time or role in the SHL that they do in the AHL on the one hand, but there are also many well rounded prospects and veterans without the upside to get to the NHL and stay there, who might excel in the SHL where grind, compete and sound two way instincts are appreciated, or where a lack of size isn’t as much of a hindrance as it may be in taking the leap to the NHL. I think it’s hard to compare the strength of the leagues when systems and philosophies differ so much.
The KHL didn’t entice me with the disparity between top and bottom teams before the invasion, and I think it’s fair to question its strength with the exodus of foreign players since. However it’s also fair to say that the number of absolute top-end players in the KHL probably blows any other Euro league out of the water, as Russia’s able to keep some names who would play top-six minutes in the NHL, and even superstars well into their 20s.
Lastly, since most of the top foreign talent in the KHL went to NLA, and they expanded the number of imports, I’ve been interested in seeing whether they’d close the gap with the SHL where I’ve thought there’s something to the idea of most teams being relatively top loaded, with average pros being comfortably below SHL level. I’m not sure they closed the gap yet, though.
For conclusion, I refuse to rank the leagues, but I do think the SHL is a great, entertaining league to follow. The downside is the success of Växjö and Örebro’s boring systems, and that the qualification process is too closed.
Not a whataboutism but a criticism of your logic. If your logic is valid it should work all the time. Are we on same page here?
So, basically you are saying, that
Russia has more registered players and therefore, it has a better domestic base for its league. How can I disprove such logic? I have to disprove your "more players better national base" corellation. So I have to bring in "whataboutism", because logic is either valid or not, it should work always or not work at all
Your argument basically
Country A has significantly more registered players than country B therefor country A has better base
Ok, Japan has more players than Slovakia
France has more players than Slovakia
UK has more players than Slovakia
China has more players than Slovakia
Conclusion, Japan, France, UK and China all have better domestic base than Slovakia. I am not shatting on anyone just numbers, you cant argue against numbers!
And by extention Asian Hockey League, UK league, french league and whatever China has are better than Slovak Extraliga, not only is chinese or british base better, they also are staying home, while slovaks are scattered around the World.
Well, hopefully you dont believe that China has better base than Slovakia.
Therefore, your logic is disproven, it is invalid
There is also another way to disprove your logic, next post will be about it
So, 2nd way
Year 2012 Russia and Sweden have roughly 60k registered players.
SHL was 12 team league
KHL had 19 russian teams
Base is the same, according to your logic, numbers are numbers you know. KHL has 7 extra rosters to fill. That is about 180 extra players. How many players did Sweden have on Russia in NA back then? Probably like 60, plus 20 in NL. 100 man deficit.
So, in 2012 SHL was better than KHL. Numbers you know.
Btw, being such a hater and russophobe, I myself would not go that far. I think KHL was always overrated, but in 2012 it was a clear the best of the rest league. Because back then, Russia actually had the ability to pay so much that they could attract legitimate russian NHL talent like Kovalchuk, Radulov, Morozov, not some mythical 12 tribes of russian NHLers that allegedely are hiding from higher salaries and status of NHL player somewhere in Russia. They also brought in a lot of european stars, there were more of them back in the day, because now NHL acts as a vacuum cleaner and sucks Europe(incl KHL) dry.
KHL was better because its 1st and 2nd liners were in general much better and they were prompting KHL ahead, even if 3rd and 4th liners were worse than in SHL.
Year 2012 Russia and Sweden have roughly 60k registered players.
SHL was 12 team league
KHL had 19 russian teams
Base is the same, according to your logic, numbers are numbers you know. KHL has 7 extra rosters to fill. That is about 180 extra players. How many players did Sweden have on Russia in NA back then? Probably like 60, plus 20 in NL. 100 man deficit.
So, in 2012 SHL was better than KHL. Numbers you know.
Btw, being such a hater and russophobe, I myself would not go that far. I think KHL was always overrated, but in 2012 it was a clear the best of the rest league. Because back then, Russia actually had the ability to pay so much that they could attract legitimate russian NHL talent like Kovalchuk, Radulov, Morozov, not some mythical 12 tribes of russian NHLers that allegedely are hiding from higher salaries and status of NHL player somewhere in Russia. They also brought in a lot of european stars, there were more of them back in the day, because now NHL acts as a vacuum cleaner and sucks Europe(incl KHL) dry.
KHL was better because its 1st and 2nd liners were in general much better and they were prompting KHL ahead, even if 3rd and 4th liners were worse than in SHL.
Now, what I would propose to see which system produces more good players. Basically 2 measuring sticks
1.NHL draft
2.Active NHL players
NHL draft is a meritocratic system which is based on the fact that scouts and gms want to keep their jobs, so amount of drafted players reflects the development system performance
Active NHL players is also a good measuring tool. NHL is an open system unlike KHL. No import limits, if you are good you play.
Warrior of time is a great economist so he will probably agree that since NHL pays better than KHL now, talent will follow the money. So all the best players go to NHL because of money. And in the end there are 80 swedish NHL regulars and only 40 russian ones. Swedish system does a better job. Despite 100 k registered players in Russia LOL
This measuring tool is not ideal, I am not sure it is apllicable to smaller hockey nations, but for TOP 4 it is pretty good, at least def better than "more registered players better base" esp when we dont know how they are counted and what is the explanation of the fact that registered numbers in Russia skyrocketed in last 10 years, is it a real jump or did they just change the way they count?
1.NHL draft
2.Active NHL players
NHL draft is a meritocratic system which is based on the fact that scouts and gms want to keep their jobs, so amount of drafted players reflects the development system performance
Active NHL players is also a good measuring tool. NHL is an open system unlike KHL. No import limits, if you are good you play.
Warrior of time is a great economist so he will probably agree that since NHL pays better than KHL now, talent will follow the money. So all the best players go to NHL because of money. And in the end there are 80 swedish NHL regulars and only 40 russian ones. Swedish system does a better job. Despite 100 k registered players in Russia LOL
This measuring tool is not ideal, I am not sure it is apllicable to smaller hockey nations, but for TOP 4 it is pretty good, at least def better than "more registered players better base" esp when we dont know how they are counted and what is the explanation of the fact that registered numbers in Russia skyrocketed in last 10 years, is it a real jump or did they just change the way they count?
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