Best league outside NHL

[macbowes]

Here is a comparisons between player ages in the KHL (23 teams), SHL (14 teams), and AHL (32 teams) for the 2022-23 season. Ignoring the (relevant) fact that the different leagues play a different number of games, here are the number of players sorted into 21U, 23U, and 24O groups. This should give us an idea as to where in the development curve most players are.

KHL, 21 and under: 3.8 players at 20GP / team
KHL, 23 and under: 6.6 players at 20GP / team
KHL, 24 and over: 17.4 players at 20GP / team

SHL, 21 and under: 3.7 players at 20GP / team
SHL, 23 and under: 5.4 players at 20GP / team
SHL, 24 and over: 16.5 players at 20GP / team

AHL, 21 and under: 4.2 players at 20GP / team
AHL, 23 and under: 9.9 players at 20GP / team
AHL, 24 and over: 13.5 players at 20GP / team

AHL is clearly the youngest of the three leagues, with the biggest difference being the number of players aged 22-23. This makes sense, as this is typically the final years of NHL teams having full control over the player, and most players are nearing the end of their development curve. 24+ players that don't make the NHL seek pro hockey spots elsewhere, and some stay in NHL organizations as tweeners.

I would argue that the quality of 23 and younger talent is higher in the AHL than in the SHL and KHL, as a result of the AHL being a more international league than either the SHL or KHL. The majority of premium 23 and under talent play in either the NHL, or AHL, regardless of where those players are from. The same cannot be said for either the SHL, or KHL, with neither league being a destination for international 23 and under players. The AHLs largest national group is Canadian at 48.5% of the league. Compare that to the SHL, which is 73.4% Swedish, and the KHL which is 75.9% Russian. Those leagues are simply drawing on much smaller pools of players, and a pool of players with less high-end talent.

With the NHL having 32 teams, the number of jobs that pay higher than anything available elsewhere is higher than ever. This includes depth positions in organizations, which are often 1-way deals that encourage the AAAA talent to stay in the AHL (Carcone, Phillips, Barre-Boulet, Richard, Petan, etc.). This poaches exactly the type of player that used to leave the AHL for other pro leagues. While there are much fewer aged 24+ players on per team basis, the gross numbers are still larger in the AHL. This factor, combined with more organizational spots for elite 23 and under players, and the continued growth of the NCAA as an international option (which often feeds into the AHL), means that AHL has got much better, and other pro leagues have suffered.

 

[WarriorofTime]

The pool of players in Switzerland is by default poorer, but the top 200 Swiss players play in the domestic league with only few exceptions, whereas relatively few of the top 200 Finnish players play in Liiga, etc.

How is that not even more true with the KHL? You never see many Russians in SHL, Liiga, NLA, DEL historically or now.

 

[Razamanaz]

AHL then KHL then SHL imo

Well, a dreamwarrior from AHL ain't that high considered that you think overseas.
In Finland/Sweden leagues a hit or miss player more often than not.

Even if plenty of 'em (AHL:ers) play up North.

This time around Swedens HV71 from Jönköping choose no more and no less than seven(7!) foxy Finns to be on the secure side of even fallin' down to Allsvenskan.

And one lonely one (Bobby Boy Nardella) of U.S.A fame.

Henrik Borgström of Chicago Blackhawks fame the prime mover of the HV71 Finn pack ... eh, puck.

 

[Albatros]

How is that not even more true with the KHL? You never see many Russians in SHL, Liiga, NLA, DEL historically or now.

The KHL has way too many teams, plus there are still a lot of top Russians especially in North America. Not just the NHL, but the farm leagues as well.

 

[WarriorofTime]

The KHL has way too many teams, plus there are still a lot of top Russians especially in North America. Not just the NHL, but the farm leagues as well.

In 2022-23, the AHL was 7.7 % Sweden, 4.4 % Finland and 3.9 % Russia.

 

[Golden_Jet]

Here is an example of a guy that 'suddenly' became a .ppg in the KHL after getting 25 points in over 110 NHL games.

View attachment 745747

11 pts in 9 games so far this season too

He wasn't even a .ppg in the AHL

View attachment 745749

What “guy”, just curious, but I agree.

 

[Albatros]

In 2022-23, the AHL was 7.7 % Sweden, 4.4 % Finland and 3.9 % Russia.

And more importantly 0.2 % Swiss, almost all players not making the NHL stay at home.

 

[WarriorofTime]

And more importantly 0.2 % Swiss, almost all players not making the NHL stay at home.

Last season, only 4 of the top 35 scorers in NLA were Swiss.

 

[Czechboy]

What “guy”, just curious, but I agree.

Dimitri Jaskin.. noted NHL flop and KHL star.

What was weird about him to me was that he had an NHL style game. He's gritty and such. Just never got traction in the NHL and then became a star in KHL after flopping out.

 

[Hanji]

Here is an example of a guy that 'suddenly' became a .ppg in the KHL after getting 25 points in over 110 NHL games.

View attachment 745747

11 pts in 9 games so far this season too

He wasn't even a .ppg in the AHL

View attachment 745749

The difference between an NHLer and a Jaskin can be miniscule.
The NHL is very role specific. It's how Alexei Toropchenko can outproduce Jaskin despite having hands of stone. This is the same Toropchenko who was significantly outscored by his KHL Red Star Kunlun teammates not long ago; many of whom formed the pathetic Chinese team at the 2022 OG.

The NHL is the best league, no question. Nonetheless making an NHL roster can be predicated on coach preference, opportunity, an open role on a team, chemistry with a teammate.

 

[Albatros]

Last season, only 4 of the top 35 scorers in NLA were Swiss.

Because the league attracts the best imports in Europe, far better than the KHL for example.

 

[Hanji]

Because the league attracts the best imports in Europe, far better than the KHL for example.

As a whole, does not the KHL have arguably the best American/Canadians playing in Europe?
The KHL pays the most, and our players can seek employment where they please without undue outside influence.

 

[WarriorofTime]

Because the league attracts the best imports in Europe, far better than the KHL for example.

You're talking in circles... you were just talking up the Swiss domestic players for not going to the AHL. The KHL gets the best Canadians because it pays the most. You can usually find the answer when you "follow the money"

 

[Albatros]

You're talking in circles... you were just talking up the Swiss domestic players for not going to the AHL. The KHL gets the best Canadians because it pays the most. You can usually find the answer when you "follow the money"

Several of the top Canadian scorers in the KHL literally busted in Switzerland before going to the KHL.

 

[WarriorofTime]

Several of the top Canadian scorers in the KHL literally busted in Switzerland before going to the KHL.

And Several that had extensive NHL runs busted in the KHL, and some that didn't make the NHL at all were top players in the NLA. You are obviously talking in circles at this point.

 

[Hanji]

Here is a comparisons between player ages in the KHL (23 teams), SHL (14 teams), and AHL (32 teams) for the 2022-23 season. Ignoring the (relevant) fact that the different leagues play a different number of games, here are the number of players sorted into 21U, 23U, and 24O groups. This should give us an idea as to where in the development curve most players are.

KHL, 21 and under: 3.8 players at 20GP / team
KHL, 23 and under: 6.6 players at 20GP / team
KHL, 24 and over: 17.4 players at 20GP / team

SHL, 21 and under: 3.7 players at 20GP / team
SHL, 23 and under: 5.4 players at 20GP / team
SHL, 24 and over: 16.5 players at 20GP / team

AHL, 21 and under: 4.2 players at 20GP / team
AHL, 23 and under: 9.9 players at 20GP / team
AHL, 24 and over: 13.5 players at 20GP / team

AHL is clearly the youngest of the three leagues, with the biggest difference being the number of players aged 22-23. This makes sense, as this is typically the final years of NHL teams having full control over the player, and most players are nearing the end of their development curve. 24+ players that don't make the NHL seek pro hockey spots elsewhere, and some stay in NHL organizations as tweeners.

I would argue that the quality of 23 and younger talent is higher in the AHL than in the SHL and KHL, as a result of the AHL being a more international league than either the SHL or KHL. The majority of premium talent 23 and under talent play in either the NHL, or AHL, regardless of where those players are from. The same cannot be said for either the SHL, or KHL, with neither league being a destination for international 23 and under players. The AHLs largest national group is Canadian at 48.5% of the league. Compare that to the SHL, which is 73.4% Swedish, and the KHL which is 75.9% Russian. Those leagues are simply drawing on much smaller pools of players, and a pool of players with less high-end talent.

With the NHL having 32 teams, the number of jobs that pay higher than anything available elsewhere is higher than ever. This includes depth positions in organizations, which are often 1-way deals that encourage the AAAA talent to stay in the AHL (Carcone, Phillips, Barre-Boulet, Richard, Petan, etc.). This poaches exactly the type of player that used to leave the AHL for other pro leagues. While there are much fewer aged 24+ players on per team basis, the gross numbers are still larger in the AHL. This factor, combined with more organizational spots for elite 23 and under players, and the continued growth of the NCAA as an international option (which often feeds into the AHL), means that AHL has got much better, and other pro leagues have suffered.

Your figures are a result of player restrictions, Per game AHL teams can only dress 6 players with 260+ career pro games played.

The primary objective of the AHL is to develop players. It isn't to put the best product on the ice, per se. I've witnessed countless instances of teams giving prospects prime ice time over vets (who are currently better players but have 'maxed out' potential wise). Furthermore there's a trend in recent years for top Europeans to avoid the AHL. Its not uncommon for NHL contracts to contain reassignment clauses (back to Europe).

 

[miscs75]

Northern Ontario Senior Hockey Organization

 

[macbowes]

Your figures are a result of player restrictions, Per game AHL teams can only dress 6 players with 260+ career pro games played.

The primary objective of the AHL is to develop players. It isn't to put the best product on the ice, per se. I've witnessed countless instances of teams giving prospects prime ice time over vets (who are currently better players but have 'maxed out' potential wise). Furthermore there's a trend in recent years for top Europeans to avoid the AHL. Its not uncommon for NHL contracts to contain reassignment clauses (back to Europe).

I agree that the AHL is primarily a development league, but I think the overall talent is higher in the AHL than other pro leagues. It's not uncommon for quality SHL/KHL players to come play in the AHL, like Ryfors, Anisimov, or Stromwall. I feel like the AHL still has the highest number of this tier of player playing games, even if development of 23U players is the goal, because there are enough high-paying AHL jobs with 32 teams in the league. Every organization needs some number of high-end AHL players to help develop their prospects.

 

[Hanji]

I agree that the AHL is primarily a development league, but I think the overall talent is higher in the AHL than other pro leagues. It's not uncommon for quality SHL/KHL players to come play in the AHL, like Ryfors, Anisimov, or Stromwall. I feel like the AHL still has the highest number of this tier of player playing games, even if development of 23U players is the goal, because there are enough high-paying AHL jobs with 32 teams in the league. Every organization needs some number of high-end AHL players to help develop their prospects.

There’s a reason the vet limit exists.
The AHL knows the majority of U23 roster spots would be taken by vets if prospects and vets were on equal footing. It’s what maintains the AHL as a development league.

Most talented U23’s ≠ highest level of play.
We’re talking undeveloped prospects here; the vast majority of whom wont sniff the NHL anyhow.


I’d be a millionaire if I had a dollar for every time I heard: “We need to get (European prospect name) to the AHL for some ice time! They’re having difficulty earning it in (name of Euro league).”

 

[mattihp]

The AHL might have the best players, but as a developmental league, the teams aren't built to win. The SHL is far ahead when it comes to tactics, chemistry and coaching.

It is also sad to see Liiga in a freefall. From the consensus #4-#5 league to being even with the Czech league..

 

[Albatros]

And Several that had extensive NHL runs busted in the KHL, and some that didn't make the NHL at all were top players in the NLA. You are obviously talking in circles at this point.

If we look at current foreign top scorers at both leagues that played somewhere else recently then it's easy to establish that the players in Switzerland did substantially better whereas in the KHL pretty much all arrivals have been downshifting.

 

[Garl]

Basically, the whole "Euro exodus" of the KHL is so wildly overblown and the domestic % of the KHL is the same as the SHL and Liiga, WHILE offering the best salaries that side of the Atlantic in order to attract the number one hockey exporter on the planet, the Canadians that all played a high level of junior or college hockey and often times ran out of "Developmental Player" eligibility in the AHL.

You are acting like this euro players who went out of KHL are just some random players but they were def not, majority of them were best players on their teams.
Why do you think league TOP 100 in scoring went from 30% russian to like 80% russian in one season?
7 out of 10 top 100 scoring players in KHL were imports, now it is 2 or 3 but it is not a big deal of course, wildly overblown LMAO

Then when you count your percentage you are adding Kunlun, Minsk and Barys. NL or SHL dont have foreign teams. KHL does. They consist almost 100% of non russians. Russian teams are now allowed ONLY 3 imports per team. So your percentages are way off, russians are closer to 85% now.

Best salaries and best canadians point is also overblown, KHL lost lots of top NA players after 2022.

 

[Hanji]

You are acting like this euro players who went out of KHL are just some random players but they were def not, majority of them were best players on their teams.
Why do you think league TOP 100 in scoring went from 30% russian to like 80% russian in one season?
7 out of 10 top 100 scoring players in KHL were imports, now it is 2 or 3 but it is not a big deal of course, wildly overblown LMAO

Then when you count your percentage you are adding Kunlun, Minsk and Barys. NL or SHL dont have foreign teams. KHL does. They consist almost 100% of non russians. Russian teams are now allowed ONLY 3 imports per team. So your percentages are way off, russians are closer to 85% now.

Best salaries and best canadians point is also overblown, KHL lost lots of top NA players after 2022.

On what planet are you getting that data?

Just looked on EP:
[TABLE=collapse]
[TR]
[TD]Season[/TD]
[TD]non-russian in top 100 scoring[/TD]
[TD]Non-russians in top 10 scoring[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]2017-18[/TD]
[TD]54[/TD]
[TD]5[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]2018-19[/TD]
[TD]60[/TD]
[TD]5[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]2019-20[/TD]
[TD]60[/TD]
[TD]7[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]2020-21[/TD]
[TD]52[/TD]
[TD]8[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]2021-22[/TD]
[TD]60[/TD]
[TD]5[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]2022-23[/TD]
[TD]33[/TD]
[TD]4[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]2023-24[/TD]
[TD]40[/TD]
[TD]5[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

It’s early, but compared to a few seasons ago this years KHL roughly appears to have a 20% less talent depth at the most. Is this figure significant enough for the NL or SHL to surpass the KHL?
Top 10 scoring is the same as 2018, 2019 and 2022.

 

[NatusVincere]

Because the league attracts the best imports in Europe, far better than the KHL for example.

Lol. First of all, Kunlun lost 5 out of the last 6 games. I know you hoped nobody noticed your BS on the second page, but some did. Btw, Kunlun lost 5:1 to Lada the last game…

Second, the NLA attracts better than the other european leagues, cause they pay more… as simple as that. But that has nothing to do with the KHL… Hartikainen, Metsola and co would continue playing in the K if not for politics, cause they would earn even more there than in Switzerland. At the end of the day it’s all about money. That’s why the Gusevs and Radulovs play in Russia and not in the AHL, SHL or NLA (not because their love for their home country is that big)… and that’s why the AHL, SHL or NLA has till now not one player on the same level/status as a Gusev or Shiapchev or Nikishin or even the old Radulov.

 

[Albatros]

Lol. First of all, Kunlun lost 5 out of the last 6 games. I know you hoped nobody noticed your BS on the second page, but some did. Btw, Kunlun lost 5:1 to Lada the last game…

Second, the NLA attracts better than the other european leagues, cause they pay more… as simple as that. But that has nothing to do with the KHL… Hartikainen, Metsola and co would continue playing in the K if not for politics, cause they would earn even more there than in Switzerland. At the end of the day it’s all about money. That’s why the Gusevs and Radulovs play in Russia and not in the AHL, SHL or NLA (not because their love for their home country is that big)… and that’s why the AHL, SHL or NLA has till now not one player on the same level/status as a Gusev or Shiapchev or Nikishin or even the old Radulov.

Kunlun is now tied in points with SKA and ahead of CSKA, the two powerhouse teams of recent years. That as largely synonymous with the third-tier Chinese national team program that was destroyed even by the depleted Dutch last spring.