Best league outside NHL

WarriorofTime

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WHL was 33.

FTR.. I'm not arguing one over the other. BUT, there is a definitely an argument. More guys drafted, more guys in NHL.
USNDTP should be separated from USHL proper.
 
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WarriorofTime

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Just one problem with the list. If they are going to lump in all the NCAA conferences into one league, the CHL should be lumped in together as well.
NCAA Conferences are more similar to divisions, all teams play a lot of out of conference games. OHL/QMJHL/WHL are three genuinely separate leagues under the same umbrella organization, they only play competitive games against each other in the Memorial Cup, which itself is an add-on to 3 League Championships.
 

WarriorofTime

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KHL is the best non-NHL league. The veterans in the AHL are just as good and can make just as much, but the status as a developmental league brings down the AHL a good bit as you have a lot of not that good players being put into lineups and bigger roles than merit would have it because the parent club wants to develop them.

SHL pays a lot less than KHL. It's a bit closer with the Swedish and Finnish guys leaving the KHL, but the KHL attracts a much better and much larger contingent of Canadian players, and the Russian guys are less likely to leave the KHL for other non-NHL leagues (and the lack of a transfer agreement leaves a lot of Russian guys in the KHL longer/more permanently even if more borderline NHL).

The other "X" Factor is how much higher quality of player Belarus is producing in recent years. This is offsetting the loss of Finns somewhat.
 

Golden_Jet

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NCAA Conferences are more similar to divisions, all teams play a lot of out of conference games. OHL/QMJHL/WHL are three genuinely separate leagues under the same umbrella organization, they only play competitive games against each other in the Memorial Cup, which itself is an add-on to 3 League Championships.
should be still be lumped in as one, what a silly argument.
 

Albatros

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KHL is the best non-NHL league. The veterans in the AHL are just as good and can make just as much, but the status as a developmental league brings down the AHL a good bit as you have a lot of not that good players being put into lineups and bigger roles than merit would have it because the parent club wants to develop them.

SHL pays a lot less than KHL. It's a bit closer with the Swedish and Finnish guys leaving the KHL, but the KHL attracts a much better and much larger contingent of Canadian players, and the Russian guys are less likely to leave the KHL for other non-NHL leagues (and the lack of a transfer agreement leaves a lot of Russian guys in the KHL longer/more permanently even if more borderline NHL).

The other "X" Factor is how much higher quality of player Belarus is producing in recent years. This is offsetting the loss of Finns somewhat.
There are four NHL-drafted Belarusians in the KHL, highest pick was in the 3rd round. The level of play in the KHL has collapsed no matter how you look at it. Even Kunlun is nowadays doing well there.
 
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WarriorofTime

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There are four NHL-drafted Belarusians in the KHL, highest pick was in the 3rd round. The level of play in the KHL has collapsed no matter how you look at it. Even Kunlun is nowadays doing well there.
Definining a Euro league quality by NHL draft picks doesn't make sense, as those are mostly prospects.
 
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ORRFForever

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I love the Canadian game, but please. When the MOP can’t crack a roster ANYWHERE in the NFL the CFL looks pretty bush.
It works both ways, my friend. I seen good U.S. players come to Canada and flop - it's a different game and the BIG field makes a BIG difference.
 

Czechboy

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KHL is the best non-NHL league. The veterans in the AHL are just as good and can make just as much, but the status as a developmental league brings down the AHL a good bit as you have a lot of not that good players being put into lineups and bigger roles than merit would have it because the parent club wants to develop them.

SHL pays a lot less than KHL. It's a bit closer with the Swedish and Finnish guys leaving the KHL, but the KHL attracts a much better and much larger contingent of Canadian players, and the Russian guys are less likely to leave the KHL for other non-NHL leagues (and the lack of a transfer agreement leaves a lot of Russian guys in the KHL longer/more permanently even if more borderline NHL).

The other "X" Factor is how much higher quality of player Belarus is producing in recent years. This is offsetting the loss of Finns somewhat.
Belarus is definitely on the rise... but it was Finn's, Czechs, Swedes and Swiss players that left. There are not 50 Belarusian players offsetting that.
 

WarriorofTime

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Belarus is definitely on the rise... but it was Finn's, Czechs, Swedes and Swiss players that left. There are not 50 Belarusian players offsetting that.
Again, nobody is saying there wasn't a dilutive effect as Swedes, Finns, Czechs, Slovaks, Latvians, Germans, etc. made up about 20 % of the pre-invasion KHL and now make up about 4 % so they've had to add more Russians, Canadians, Kazakhs, Americans and Belarusians to the mix to off-set. Of course that dilutes. Just like adding 2 NHL teams dilutes the quality to a smaller degree, it's just not quite the dramatic upheaval as people indicate because Canadians will continue to go to the KHL which offers better salaries than the rest of the European leagues, and the "new Canadians" aren't dramatically worse than the exiting Europeans. And then you have a rise in more domestic players (but not like 64 % to 100 %, more like to 73.4 %) which has a robust enough youth hockey system to funnel quality enough players into the League.
 
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seafoam

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I have an Admirals season membership and the AHL is very physical yet very sloppy hockey compared to the elite European leagues. It's a quasi-development league, so a myriad of mistakes are the norm.
Not sold on it being the most difficult. Data is likely skewed in its favor as the AHL is stylistically the most similar to the NHL making the AHL-to-NHL transition the easiest.

And Czechia over Liiga? Yeah, no.
But the quality of players in the AHL is likely
much better than that of the elite European leagues.

Like you allude to, the AHL is a developmental league while the European leagues are not so the quality of play does not necessarily equal difficulty.
 

Albatros

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Definining a Euro league quality by NHL draft picks doesn't make sense, as those are mostly prospects.
It's hard for me to believe that the 40+ other players suddenly became relevant after having been previously underwhelming rather than the league becoming worse and thus opening up opportunities for players like them. For example the scoring leaders Pinchuk and Alistrov both played junior hockey in Canada, went undrafted, returned to Belarus and are now suddenly ppg players in the KHL.
 

WarriorofTime

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It's hard for me to believe that the 40+ other players suddenly became relevant after having been previously underwhelming rather than the league becoming worse and thus opening up opportunities for players like them. For example the scoring leaders Pinchuk and Alistrov both played junior hockey in Canada, went undrafted, returned to Belarus and are now suddenly ppg players in the KHL.
You may be surprised to learn that players aren’t static from where they were at age 17. There are so many 2nd to 4th round picks eating up minutes in the AHL that are terrible but getting spoon fed ice time they don’t deserve compared to college free agents that turned pro at 24.. just because the nhl team is trying to see if there is anything there.
 

Caser

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It's hard for me to believe that the 40+ other players suddenly became relevant after having been previously underwhelming rather than the league becoming worse and thus opening up opportunities for players like them. For example the scoring leaders Pinchuk and Alistrov both played junior hockey in Canada, went undrafted, returned to Belarus and are now suddenly ppg players in the KHL.
Just in case, that "now suddenly" should be read as "after 3 years", it's not like they returned and immediately started playing good, not to mention that calling them ppg players after just 9 games sounds a bit too early to me.
 

Albatros

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Just in case, that "now suddenly" should be read as "after 3 years", it's not like they returned and immediately started playing good, not to mention that calling them ppg players after just 9 games sounds a bit too early to me.
Sure, as it's after certain events in '22 that the league tanked.
 

Czechboy

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Here is an example of a guy that 'suddenly' became a .ppg in the KHL after getting 25 points in over 110 NHL games.

1695585971855.png


11 pts in 9 games so far this season too

He wasn't even a .ppg in the AHL

1695586083692.png
 
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Caser

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Sure, as it's after certain events in '22 that the league tanked.
Obviously after these events young players started getting more opportunities, but if they wouldn't be good enough at using those they wouldn't be scoring, as it is not like it would become easier to score (otherwise the players who were constantly good before 2022 would be setting some records, but they are not).

Here is an example of a guy that 'suddenly' became a .ppg in the KHL after getting 25 points in over 110 NHL games.

View attachment 745747

11 pts in 9 games so far this season too

He wasn't even a .ppg in the AHL

View attachment 745749
Yeah, Jaskin is a more legit example, but that was before the 2022 events. But yeah, it is frequent that guys like that feel just perfect in the KHL, but on the other hand there were former NHLers, who were rather meh yet they would be expected to be leading their teams.
 

Albatros

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Of course there will always be some that just needed an opportunity and will run with it, but collectively I don't see it. It's true that Belarus won promotion from the second-tier of the WJC most recently, but they were stuck there for quite a while, including a third place behind Austria and Latvia at a tournament they hosted themselves 2020. These classes are now suddenly taking over the KHL.
 

Caser

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Of course there will always be some that just needed an opportunity and will run with it, but collectively I don't see it. It's true that Belarus won promotion from the second-tier of the WJC most recently, but they were stuck there for quite a while, including a third place behind Austria and Latvia at a tournament they hosted themselves 2020. These classes are now suddenly taking over the KHL.
Belarus performance at international tournaments pretty much always had one big issue - lack of coaches, so not always it was about the talent production. Btw, Alistrov scored 7 points in 5 games at the U18s as a 17 year old, notably outscored a year old Protas who played on the same team, as well as everyone who played on that year's Team Russia lol.
 

WarriorofTime

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Of course there will always be some that just needed an opportunity and will run with it, but collectively I don't see it. It's true that Belarus won promotion from the second-tier of the WJC most recently, but they were stuck there for quite a while, including a third place behind Austria and Latvia at a tournament they hosted themselves 2020. These classes are now suddenly taking over the KHL.
Look at the last few U18s before they got banned.
 

Czechboy

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Look at the last few U18s before they got banned.
He literally quoted 2020.

I do agree that Belarus had a beauty U18 program though. Copied the NDTP model to my knowledge? Is it a long term trend or a blip like when other non big 5 nations have a gold rush of stars? Eg. Germany produced Drai, Stutzl and Seider within a few drafts... not much before and not much since (Peterka, Reichel, maybe Bokk?)
 

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