OT: Bears & NFL Talk 94

[piteus]

Have the Bears considered moving to Northern Indiana?

Thousands of Cook County residents are fleeing to Northern Indiana yearly and its booming when it comes to economic development and population growth.

Would be great way to stick it to Cook County/Illinois

Seriously there is also a city with a major airport, connection to Chicago transit and has lots of unused land and looking for major turnaround economically.

Yeah, I am talking Gary, Indiana!

Imagine a multi-billion-dollar land development deal that brings in major revenue yearly thru concerts, etc. to city and the effects it could have on area surrounding stadium as well as employment opportunities both during building and after construction.

It would not be all that different then New York Giants and New York Jets playing in East Rutherford, New Jersey

Zero chance. If they moved to Indiana, it would open up an opportunity for another NFL team to move into Chicago. New York City is a different animal. The NFL would not allow a 3rd team in the New York City area. The Jets thought about building a stadium in Queens (it's the Queens / Long Island team), but the economics were astronomical. The Giants own everything else in NYC/Northern New Jersey).

The Jets/Giants also thought about buying land in Northwest Manhattan. 20 yeaŕs ago, the land cost 10x more than what the Bears paid for Arlington Heights. You can only imagine what it cost now. Furthermore, there was no land for parking and tailgating.

 

[IU Hawks fan]

Have the Bears considered moving to Northern Indiana?

Thousands of Cook County residents are fleeing to Northern Indiana yearly and its booming when it comes to economic development and population growth.

Would be great way to stick it to Cook County/Illinois

Seriously there is also a city with a major airport, connection to Chicago transit and has lots of unused land and looking for major turnaround economically.

Yeah, I am talking Gary, Indiana!

Imagine a multi-billion-dollar land development deal that brings in major revenue yearly thru concerts, etc. to city and the effects it could have on area surrounding stadium as well as employment opportunities both during building and after construction.

It would not be all that different then New York Giants and New York Jets playing in East Rutherford, New Jersey

Gary doesn't make any sense for the Bears. The vast majority of season ticket holders are in the North/NW suburbs.

Zero chance. If they moved to Indiana, it would open up an opportunity for another NFL team to move into Chicago.

No it wouldn't. Gary is still within the Bears' controlled territory, it's the Chicago TV market.

 

[HeisenBaez]

Teams are territorial in all sports. Would the Colts even want the Bears in Indiana? Probably not.

Bears are not likely to leave Illinois.

 

[Sarava]

And the assessor’s office is dominated by Chicago. What, were they expecting a tax break from a bunch of Chicagoans over the team leaving Chicago?

Between wasting political capital on trying to get a state tax break that just let Chicago and downstate politicians unite to high five each other for easy political points opposing such a DOA bill and being surprised at a completely foreseeable tax bill, the Bears are clearly not the sharpest tools in the shed.

The Bears have said from the very beginning that tax cost certainty would be needed for this to work. I dont know that there was anything they could do until it came to the point of it being re-assesed like it was. I think you're just criticizing them to criticize them.

I think this will happen. Blocking the Bears over them not wanting to pay absurd taxes is a classic case of not seeing the forest through the trees.

Because if not - what is going to happen to this land if the Bears dont build a stadium? Arlington Heights has already made it clear they wont approve normal residential or offices being built on the site. They want an attraction/destination of sorts to be on this land. Well who's going to do it at a 16 mil tax hit every year? The answer is nobody. And hell, the Bears would probably a take a big hit if they had to re-sell the land eventually, because absurd taxes will kill a property's value faster than just about anything.

And to BWC - no to Indiana lol. Every time I've driven to the east coast or down south and go across that border, I hit hellacious traffic. I cant imagine people dealing with that to go to a sporting event. If this thing blows up, the obvious answer is stay in Chicagoland, but outside of Cook County. Likely Dupage county. But they'll get this done.

 

[MarotteMarauder]

We have KC to thank for that with their home team veto power. They want Bears fans coming to Arrowhead for the increased revenue.

Isn't KC sold out every game regardless?

 

[No Fun Shogun]

The Bears have said from the very beginning that tax cost certainty would be needed for this to work. I dont know that there was anything they could do until it came to the point of it being re-assesed like it was. I think you're just criticizing them to criticize them.

I think this will happen. Blocking the Bears over them not wanting to pay absurd taxes is a classic case of not seeing the forest through the trees.

Because if not - what is going to happen to this land if the Bears dont build a stadium? Arlington Heights has already made it clear they wont approve normal residential or offices being built on the site. They want an attraction/destination of sorts to be on this land. Well who's going to do it at a 16 mil tax hit every year? The answer is nobody. And hell, the Bears would probably a take a big hit if they had to re-sell the land eventually, because absurd taxes will kill a property's value faster than just about anything.

And to BWC - no to Indiana lol. Every time I've driven to the east coast or down south and go across that border, I hit hellacious traffic. I cant imagine people dealing with that to go to a sporting event. If this thing blows up, the obvious answer is stay in Chicagoland, but outside of Cook County. Likely Dupage county. But they'll get this done.

They’re being taxed at the value for which they just paid for the property. I get that the obvious expectation is to not be taxed at the full value, but this should not remotely have come as a surprise given the reality on the ground. Plus, if and when they build a stadium/entertainment district on the land, land value will only go up and so will property taxes. Cook County and Illinois aren‘t going to give the Bears any breaks, that much was obvious from the get-go. All that’s left is to try to squeeze the locals, and trying to do so after they already bought the land seems like it’s an obviously brain dead strategic move.

And Soldier Field sucks, I’m all for them moving from that dump. But I’m under no expectations expecting Chicago or Springfield to play ball here, nor should that have remotely been anyone’s expectation.

 

[Fortyfives]

Sign me up for Naperville. A stadium with bears, concerts and other sporting events 20 mins from my house? Hell yeah

Downtown Naperville would be amazing on Sundays.

 

[IU Hawks fan]

Teams are territorial in all sports. Would the Colts even want the Bears in Indiana? Probably not.

Bears are not likely to leave Illinois.

States are irrelevant. Colts don't have any control over Northwest Indiana, it's the Chicago market.

 

[piteus]

Gary doesn't make any sense for the Bears. The vast majority of season ticket holders are in the North/NW suburbs.


No it wouldn't. Gary is still within the Bears' controlled territory, it's the Chicago TV market.

That is NOT true. In the NFL, any relocating team needs valid reasoning to leave their current location which cannot be revenue driven. Article 4.3 requires prior approval by the affirmative vote of three-fourths of the member clubs before a club may transfer its franchise or playing site to a different city either within or outside its existing home territory.

Hence, if the Chicago Bears leave Illinois, I can easily see an NFL owner trying to get a team back into the state with 75% approval ... and the Illinois government looking for a NFL team back in the state. With 75% owner approval, the Bears couldn't block it.

Leaving Chicago for a Chicago suburb is one thing ... leaving the state could open up a can of worms. The Bears would be playing a dangerous game. I highly doubt the Bears want to take that risk.

 

[piteus]

States are irrelevant. Colts don't have any control over Northwest Indiana, it's the Chicago market.

A 75% approval by the NFL owners would override any territorial rights bylaws. The NFL seriously considered overriding the Niners objections when Oakland looked to play in Oracle Park in SF while they explored other avenues.

Also, the Raiders moved within the Niner's territorial rights (played at Candlestick at the time) when they moved back to Oakland in the mid 90s. The Raiders had overwhelming support from the other NFL owners.

In the NFL, it's all about getting 75% approval from the owners to relocate. Moving out of Illinois to Gary, Indiana might make Chicago fair game for the NFL ... especially if Illinois/Chicago make enticing offers for another NFL team and owner. I highly doubt the Bears want to play that game.

 

[hawksrule]

Look at your property tax bill. The valuation (for tax purposes) is significantly less than the homes value.

When a property changes hands, the tax assessment is adjusted based on the recent sales price. That’s how it works everywhere.

 

[piteus]

When a property changes hands, the tax assessment is adjusted based on the recent sales price. That’s how it works everywhere.

The Bears want a discount. Can't blame them ... but I definitely don't blame the assessor. They need to figure something out where everyone benefits ... especially the surrounding community around the proposed stadium.

How much of a discount do the Bears want? Building a beautiful new stadium is not cheap. You have to put the cash down to reap the long term benefits. If the McCaskeys don't have the money, sell the darn team to the McKennas or Ryans.

 

[TLEH]

When a property changes hands, the tax assessment is adjusted based on the recent sales price. That’s how it works everywhere.

..yeah it would be reassessed like every other asset that is sold. Also don't know the laws in the area but in Florida it was done every year anyway. Regardless of selling or not.

 

[Space umpire]

They’re being taxed at the value for which they just paid for the property. I get that the obvious expectation is to not be taxed at the full value, but this should not remotely have come as a surprise given the reality on the ground. Plus, if and when they build a stadium/entertainment district on the land, land value will only go up and so will property taxes. Cook County and Illinois aren‘t going to give the Bears any breaks, that much was obvious from the get-go. All that’s left is to try to squeeze the locals, and trying to do so after they already bought the land seems like it’s an obviously brain dead strategic move.

And Soldier Field sucks, I’m all for them moving from that dump. But I’m under no expectations expecting Chicago or Springfield to play ball here, nor should that have remotely been anyone’s expectation.

Look at your property tax bill. Notice how the value they list is far lower than you know your house is worth?
That’s the norm. … except for the Bears.

 

[Idionym]

Look at your property tax bill. The valuation (for tax purposes) is significantly less than the homes value.

Every time a sale happens the property's valuation is placed at the sale value. The disconnect between actual value and assessed value happens post-sale.

The Bears must have assumed that their tax cut bill was going to go through, which is hilarious because basically everyone knew it was DOA. They're going to work on it over the summer, but there isn't much political will to get it through.

Everything that has happened has been 100% predictable, so the Bears either got some bad advice or are just incompetent.

Look at your property tax bill. Notice how the value they list is far lower than you know your house is worth?
That’s the norm. … except for the Bears.

You're just factually wrong here. Call your local township assessor and they'll tell you what we're saying.

 

[No Fun Shogun]

Look at your property tax bill. Notice how the value they list is far lower than you know your house is worth?
That’s the norm. … except for the Bears.

A) Not necessarily. Basing taxes on a new sale is not uncommon even with the expectation that a reduction would then follow.
B) Even if not the norm, them being taxed at the full valuation of their purchase price is extremely non-surprising given the reality.
C) They're billionaires. Sorry, I'll never feel like they should pay less in taxes.

And to be clear, I'm not defending the county. They screwed me out money before too on their non-sensical tax on cars purchased out of county by Cook residents, so they're greedy bastards. I'm just saying that this was obviously going to happen.

 

[Space umpire]

A) Not necessarily. Basing taxes on a new sale is not uncommon even with the expectation that a reduction would then follow.
B) Even if not the norm, them being taxed at the full valuation of their purchase price is extremely non-surprising given the reality.
C) They're billionaires. Sorry, I'll never feel like they should pay less in taxes.

And to be clear, I'm not defending the county. They screwed me out money before too on their non-sensical tax on cars purchased out of county by Cook residents, so they're greedy bastards. I'm just saying that this was obviously going to happen.

My experience is that it’s not the norm. Also my experience is residential not 10’s of millions of dollar worth of commercial investment .
The Bears can afford it but I’d find humor n this and in the end I kind of hope they choose a different location the county is risking major embarrassment and severe negative impact.

 

[Sarava]

A) Not necessarily. Basing taxes on a new sale is not uncommon even with the expectation that a reduction would then follow.
B) Even if not the norm, them being taxed at the full valuation of their purchase price is extremely non-surprising given the reality.
C) They're billionaires. Sorry, I'll never feel like they should pay less in taxes.

And to be clear, I'm not defending the county. They screwed me out money before too on their non-sensical tax on cars purchased out of county by Cook residents, so they're greedy bastards. I'm just saying that this was obviously going to happen.

But it's not. What youre suggesting will or should happen would be the worst stadium deal in the NFL. Name one mega stadium that was built with zero taxpayer assistance in the construction, zero taxpayer assistance in the infrastructure, and not only zero tax certainly, but raising it 5X on then just for fun and greed? I'll save you the time. There is no example of this. That isn't how business works in this country.

 

[No Fun Shogun]

But it's not. What youre suggesting will or should happen would be the worst stadium deal in the NFL. Name one mega stadium that was built with zero taxpayer assistance in the construction, zero taxpayer assistance in the infrastructure, and not only zero tax certainly, but raising it 5X on then just for fun and greed? I'll save you the time. There is no example of this. That isn't how business works in this country.

I’m not suggesting anything, I’m stating reality. The state won’t give the Bears tax breaks, as downstate politicians and Chicagoans alike have no interest in doing so. Cook County won’t give a break, considering that the county is run by Chicagoans not eager to do a team leaving their city any favors. That just leaves the locals, and Arlington Heights (or any other non-Chicago municipality) isn’t individually big enough to give the Bears the kind of mega deal that they clearly want.

The Bears waltzed into situation clearly with no plan other then everyone was going to bend over backwards for them when that obviously wasn’t going to be the case.

My experience is that it’s not the norm. Also my experience is residential not 10’s of millions of dollar worth of commercial investment .
The Bears can afford it but I’d find humor n this and in the end I kind of hope they choose a different location the county is risking major embarrassment and severe negative impact.

This is a singular situation. There haven’t been any other high-profile mega-million real estate developments done by a party that actively pissed off the political establishment of an entire major city like this. Expecting the county to play nice when they really have no incentive to do so (especially after the Bears already bought the land) is pretty obviously nonsensical even if not fair. Under that circumstance, expecting anything other than the highest tax rate seems optimistic.

And again, I support the Bears moving. But this is just another example of the Bears being dumb, as all of this has been foreseeable. If they’re stuck with bad taxes in Cook or stuck with albatross land with a high tax rate while shopping around DuPage County instead, either is on them.

 

[Pez68]

I mean, at the end of the day, Cook County are behaving like morons. They should be happy the Bears are staying in the same county. They should be grateful, actually. It would be hilarious to see the Bears say f*** you and choose a location outside Cook. It would also be hilarious to see the Bears f*** this up.

 

[Sarava]

I’m not suggesting anything, I’m stating reality. The state won’t give the Bears tax breaks, as downstate politicians and Chicagoans alike have no interest in doing so. Cook County won’t give a break, considering that the county is run by Chicagoans not eager to do a team leaving their city any favors. That just leaves the locals, and Arlington Heights (or any other non-Chicago municipality) isn’t individually big enough to give the Bears the kind of mega deal that they clearly want.

The Bears waltzed into situation clearly with no plan other then everyone was going to bend over backwards for them when that obviously wasn’t going to be the case.

So I was bouncing numbers around in my head. My home, which I bought just under 5 years ago - the taxes are in the 2-3% of house/property value range. If you go by my purchase price and the current taxes, it falls at 2.93%. If you change the property value to what it is currently worth approximately, it is down to 2.1%.

Now the Bears Arlington Park land - purchase price of 197.1 mil, new taxes of 16.1 mil. That is 8.17% of the property value every year in taxes. That's just nuts. Theyre going to make this land unviable. Could this be a clerical error? Does someone need to be fired here? We can stop right now referring to this new tax bill as their fair share.

Now - if mr. No Fun ends up correct that Cook County will hold to this (which I highly doubt), then they will indeed chase the Bears to Naperville or elsewhere, where they will get treated as any other company in this country gets treated when it wants to inject a multi-billion dollar project in to the community.

Living in Dundee now - and I grew up in the Palatine/Arlington Heights area - I'm selfish and really want this Arlington Park thing to happen. But if it doesnt it doesnt. Naperville would be fun too.

 

[MarotteMarauder]

It is extremely difficult to successfully appeal taxes by claiming the property is XX when you just paid XXX.

Why did you pay XXX? That is the market value.

Was there a lender involved that appraised the property? Did that appraisal support XXX as market value?

They will get a reduction when the improvements are gone.
The real issue is why was Churchill Downs getting such a low assessment?

"
As part of the triennial reassessment, the Cook County Assessor placed the land’s value at $197 million, close to the amount the Bears paid for it in February. Churchill Downs objected – appealing the issue to the Cook County Board of Review.

Churchill Downs argued the property was worth $37 million while the area school districts – which stand to benefit from property tax revenue – had pushed for $150 million in assessed value.

The settlement announced this week by Board of Review Commissioner Samantha Steele sets the current value of the land at $95 million."

 

[Sarava]

It is extremely difficult to successfully appeal taxes by claiming the property is XX when you just paid XXX.

Why did you pay XXX? That is the market value.

Was there a lender involved that appraised the property? Did that appraisal support XXX as market value?

They will get a reduction when the improvements are gone.
The real issue is why was Churchill Downs getting such a low assessment?

"
As part of the triennial reassessment, the Cook County Assessor placed the land’s value at $197 million, close to the amount the Bears paid for it in February. Churchill Downs objected – appealing the issue to the Cook County Board of Review.

Churchill Downs argued the property was worth $37 million while the area school districts – which stand to benefit from property tax revenue – had pushed for $150 million in assessed value.

The settlement announced this week by Board of Review Commissioner Samantha Steele sets the current value of the land at $95 million."

The other thing is. The Bears plan on this big entertaiment district within this property. With a hotel, restaurants, bars, shopping, etc. I'm not even sure if their plan is to sell portions of property for these estrablishments to be built - or lease it out. Either way - these establishments should be taxed in full. The county and city will make their money here eventually. If this goes through of course.

 

[No Fun Shogun]

I’m sure some tax rebate is possible, but I would be surprised if it’s anything massively huge akin to reducing to percentages you described.

It is important to note that the county has the ability to tax commercial properties at higher rates than residential properties, though.

 

[No Fun Shogun]

Oh, and by making a public stink, they left the ball in the county’s court. That leaves Cook with the easy ability to announce a lowering that saves hundreds of thousands of dollars or the like as a grand thing and to which the Bears would still claim it wasn’t enough of a break. Good luck getting public sympathy with that.