OT: Bears & NFL Talk 94

[Idionym]

People blaming Cook County have, I think, a fundamental misunderstanding of the situation, which is completely reasonable given how confusing and stupid property taxes (and using property taxes as a primary way to pay for local government) are. They priced the land at the value that the Bears paid for it (which is literally the only logical choice).

Anyone calling for Cook to price it lower is essentially calling for taxes to be raised on literally every other property owner in Cook County (and even more in the school districts/municipalities/etc directly surrounding the property). Property taxes are a zero-sum game, so if Cook gives the Bears a sweetheart deal, they are essentially placing money into the pockets of the McCaskey's and taking it from homeowners.

If you want higher property taxes in Cook and even higher for those who live in the school districts specifically, then you should continue calling on Cook County to give the Bears a sweetheart deal and value the property significantly less than they bought it for, as if that makes any sense.

 

[Sarava]

In the end, the Bears would just need to ride this out a few years (4 or5 or maybe a bit more) until the stadium is built, and the hotels, shopping, bars and restaurants are all built and leeching off the new stadium district that is created. And at that point, they can probably push much of the tax burden to those businesses, whether directly or indirectly.

And maybe this will go down as Ted Phillips' last blunder as Bears president.

 

[piteus]

In the end, the Bears would just need to ride this out a few years (4 or5 or maybe a bit more) until the stadium is built, and the hotels, shopping, bars and restaurants are all built and leeching off the new stadium district that is created. And at that point, they can probably push much of the tax burden to those businesses, whether directly or indirectly.

And maybe this will go down as Ted Phillips' last blunder as Bears president.

I think the Bears biggest complaint is that many, and I mean many, NFL teams get tax breaks in regards to their new stadiums. I completely understand why local tax payers would not be happy about it ... but that is the precedent that a lot local governments set.

The key is this ... how much value does a new stadium create (financial & goodwill) for the local community, if at all? If it does create value, what is the most fair way to split it? That's where the negotiations begins and ends.

 

[Praetorian Caps]

I love how Fields and Moore and clicking so fast. Let's hope it translates to the field this year?!

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[Sarava]

So this expert is pinning most of the bs going on on Cook County and AH. He mentions how just about all NFL teams pay zero property tax for their stadiums.

And it's interesting that he also mentions that the Bears have a meeting with the Chicago mayor coming up? I cant imagine they would consider anything under the control of the Chicago Park District. Possibly another site..who would own it...and why would the Bears consider anything in Cook County if this Arlington Park thing blows up?

 

[Sarava]

I think the Bears biggest complaint is that many, and I mean many, NFL teams get tax breaks in regards to their new stadiums. I completely understand why local tax payers would not be happy about it ... but that is the precedent that a lot local governments set.

The key is this ... how much value does a new stadium create (financial & goodwill) for the local community, if at all? If it does create value, what is the most fair way to split it? That's where the negotiations begins and ends.

And this is an interesting question. What does a stadium bring to a community? I was reading a really long article this morning about Las Vegas and whether they should give the A's owner the $380 mil he wants to build that stadium on the Tropicana site. That article basically says the A's bring virtually nothing to Vegas. Some tourist dollars will be spent there, but it would be money re-allocated. In most cases people would have spent that money on a show, restaurants or gambling had they not gone to the A's game. And it's thought the baseball stadium wouldn't bring many new vacationers in. You might have some people schedule their annual Vegas trip around their team being in town - but those people were coming to Vegas at some point anyway and the town was going to get that money with or without the A's.

I think there's differences with Arlington Heights. For one, they arent asking for $380 mil. But also, it would bring dollars to AH and the northwest suburbs that would not otherwise be there. Now - how many events are there? The Bears would have 10 games including pre-season. You'd probably have the occassional soccer game, concert. And in rare cases maybe a super bowl or final four. A football stadium is empty most days of the year, moreso than baseball stadiums or hockey/nba arenas.

Is it worth it for the community? I dont know. Maybe Arlington Heights is having second thoughts on if this is worth it to them?

 

[No Fun Shogun]

There is an argument to be made that stadiums and arenas are economic drivers for an area, but usually at the cost of reallocation of funds spent elsewhere (like Sarava said) or limited to things like the hotel sector. But I don’t think there’s any tangible evidence that a massive infusion of public money ever has a meaningful return on investment, and oftentimes has a deleterious one by saddling a community with the costs associated of paying down their public debt.

But at least arenas are far-more multi-purpose. NFL stadiums, though? What, ten or so games a year if you’re lucky, maybe a Super Bowl or two or three over the span of a few decades (and these often have negative draws due the NFL extorting huge concessions from host municipalities to land the things), a convention every now and then, and a mega concert once in a blue moon? Not really a lot to talk about after sinking a few hundred million+ in public funds from a tax perspective or locking oneself into a horrible revenue-generating tax deal.

And Arlington Heights was always going to get NIMBY opposition once things became more concrete, this is the suburban standard. Would you suddenly want to deal with enormous traffic disruptions as often as they bring to the table? And that’s not even counting reservations to the costs associated with putting public monies into such a venture ultimately causing fiscal issues locally.

As mentioned though, I don’t know what the Bears are expecting Arlington Heights to do. They’re not big enough to give the Bears an NFL standard sweetheart deal, and they don’t have remotely the sway to ram anything through the county or state. If the Bears wanted one, looking elsewhere in Cook County was always going to run into this blatant barrier. Should’ve thought of that before they announced their plans and bought the land.

 

[Idionym]

So this expert is pinning most of the bs going on on Cook County and AH. He mentions how just about all NFL teams pay zero property tax for their stadiums.

This guy isn't an "expert", he's a league business insider so of course he's unhappy that Cook/AH aren't just bending over and giving the Bears everything they want like the NFL is used to. Of course he's going to use the framing that "wow, Cook County is crazy for charging the Bears property taxes when almost no one else does!" when in reality the framing should be "wow, it's crazy that so many municipalities aren't charging multi-billion dollar businesses taxes on massive properties!"

The NFL, and major sports leagues in general, are used to getting basically everything they want with these deals. The reality is that these deals are a drain on the municipalities and taxpayers in the region. The idea that Cook County/the State should treat the $5.8 billion dollar Bears with kiddy gloves and give them tax incentives that no other businesses get, many of which have a larger economic impact on the surrounding communities than the Bears, is absurd.

What the Bears want is special treatment at the direct expense of the taxpayers of AH and Cook. We should all remember that, while we may love the Bears as a football team, it is still a business that is currently shopping around trying to find the best deal for it's bottom line, which is directly in conflict with the best deal for government/taxpayers. If the Bears feel like they got a great deal, all that means is that they found a place where they could f*** taxpayers the hardest.

 

[Sarava]

This guy isn't an "expert", he's a league business insider so of course he's unhappy that Cook/AH aren't just bending over and giving the Bears everything they want like the NFL is used to. Of course he's going to use the framing that "wow, Cook County is crazy for charging the Bears property taxes when almost no one else does!" when in reality the framing should be "wow, it's crazy that so many municipalities aren't charging multi-billion dollar businesses taxes on massive properties!"

The NFL, and major sports leagues in general, are used to getting basically everything they want with these deals. The reality is that these deals are a drain on the municipalities and taxpayers in the region. The idea that Cook County/the State should treat the $5.8 billion dollar Bears with kiddy gloves and give them tax incentives that no other businesses get, many of which have a larger economic impact on the surrounding communities than the Bears, is absurd.

What the Bears want is special treatment at the direct expense of the taxpayers of AH and Cook. We should all remember that, while we may love the Bears as a football team, it is still a business that is currently shopping around trying to find the best deal for it's bottom line, which is directly in conflict with the best deal for government/taxpayers. If the Bears feel like they got a great deal, all that means is that they found a place where they could f*** taxpayers the hardest.

For the record - your posts act as if the Bears are asking for the state or county to pay for the stadium. They are not. I'm not sure why you're misrepresenting this.

If asking for the taxes to not be raised my more than 500% is asking for special treatment then ok. I don't think you and I are going to agree here. I have a serious problem when the government tries to guage their citizens or businesses.

 

[Behn Wilson]

Leonard Floyd and now Frank Clark are both signed and off the market, Bears need to act quick and snatch up an pass rush to play DE.

 

[belfour30]

Leonard Floyd and now Frank Clark are both signed and off the market, Bears need to act quick and snatch up an pass rush to play DE.

Yannick Ngakoue and Jadaveon Clowney are still out there. They would fill out the DE spots for the Bears very nicely. I'm not sure if Clowney is a HITS guy though.

 

[Behn Wilson]

Yannick Ngakoue and Jadaveon Clowney are still out there. They would fill out the DE spots for the Bears very nicely. I'm not sure if Clowney is a HITS guy though.

Ngakoue does not play the run, I would prefer Clowney but he is probably asking too much.

 

[HeisenBaez]

Yannick Ngakoue and Jadaveon Clowney are still out there. They would fill out the DE spots for the Bears very nicely. I'm not sure if Clowney is a HITS guy though.

Both guys preference would to play for contenders. So I would not expect either.

 

[Idionym]

For the record - your posts act as if the Bears are asking for the state or county to pay for the stadium. They are not. I'm not sure why you're misrepresenting this.

If asking for the taxes to not be raised my more than 500% is asking for special treatment then ok. I don't think you and I are going to agree here. I have a serious problem when the government tries to guage their citizens or businesses.

The only thing I talk about is special tax incentives, which is what the Bears are asking for.

It is an indisputable fact that the Bears are looking for special treatment. Take a look at the current bill that is being discussed at the state level at the Bears behest. The bill creates a special designation only for them (a massive sports/entertainment project specifically in Arlington Heights, which would basically only fit their project unless you believe Arlington Heights is about to start building tons of massive sports arenas) that gives them tax breaks (assessment freeze, property tax abatement, various other tax exemptions). Let me reiterate that this would basically only apply to the Bears. In what world is that not the Bears looking for special treatment?

In addition, as explained earlier, their assessment going up is literally the most normal, sensical thing that could happen. The point of property assessments is to guess the market value of a property. The Bears just paid $200m for the property, so it's only logical to say that the market value of the property is the price that it literally just sold for. Additionally, that assessment is not final, and I'm sure the Bears will appeal and argue that the land they just bought for 200m is worth less than 200m. And, given the Churchill Downs agreement, they might have a shot at getting it lowered a bit. At the end of the day, though, the property being assessed at the price it was sold for is standard procedure and if Kaegi valued it lower than that, it would have certainly been special treatment.

This whole situation is just the Bears throwing a fit that they aren't getting tax breaks at the expense of Cook County homeowners. Now they're going to see if they can get a sweetheart deal and get those special tax breaks in one of the collars. I hope that they fail to find it and, like every other business that operates in this state, pay their fair share.

 

[HawksBeerFan]

Just wanted to say excellent string of posts @Idionym

It's pretty pathetic the way much of the media views all of these issues through the lens of ownership OR their own personal experience with property taxes. I was listening to the latest Hoge and Jahns podcast, who generally do a decent job with stuff, and they were just blindly parroting pro-Bears ownership talking points without even attempting to explain the situation.

 

[Sarava]

The only thing I talk about is special tax incentives, which is what the Bears are asking for.

It is an indisputable fact that the Bears are looking for special treatment. Take a look at the current bill that is being discussed at the state level at the Bears behest. The bill creates a special designation only for them (a massive sports/entertainment project specifically in Arlington Heights, which would basically only fit their project unless you believe Arlington Heights is about to start building tons of massive sports arenas) that gives them tax breaks (assessment freeze, property tax abatement, various other tax exemptions). Let me reiterate that this would basically only apply to the Bears. In what world is that not the Bears looking for special treatment?

In addition, as explained earlier, their assessment going up is literally the most normal, sensical thing that could happen. The point of property assessments is to guess the market value of a property. The Bears just paid $200m for the property, so it's only logical to say that the market value of the property is the price that it literally just sold for. Additionally, that assessment is not final, and I'm sure the Bears will appeal and argue that the land they just bought for 200m is worth less than 200m. And, given the Churchill Downs agreement, they might have a shot at getting it lowered a bit. At the end of the day, though, the property being assessed at the price it was sold for is standard procedure and if Kaegi valued it lower than that, it would have certainly been special treatment.

This whole situation is just the Bears throwing a fit that they aren't getting tax breaks at the expense of Cook County homeowners. Now they're going to see if they can get a sweetheart deal and get those special tax breaks in one of the collars. I hope that they fail to find it and, like every other business that operates in this state, pay their fair share.

Maybe they could pull a Pritzker and yank out the toilets to reduce their property taxes?

In the end, yes they are asking for special circumstances. But where is a stadium ever built in this country where there isn't some type of help, however big or small? If Cook County or Arlington Heights are at a point of offering no tax certainty or any help at all..... that is ok, but then maybe they shouldn't pretend to be players for hosting this stadium.

 

[Idionym]

Just wanted to say excellent string of posts @Idionym

It's pretty pathetic the way much of the media views all of these issues through the lens of ownership OR their own personal experience with property taxes. I was listening to the latest Hoge and Jahns podcast, who generally do a decent job with stuff, and they were just blindly parroting pro-Bears ownership talking points without even attempting to explain the situation.

Thanks! Hoge and Jahns never really have super well-thought out political takes (which I get, they are sports journalists after all). I listened to the podcast and it sounded like all of their sources that they're listening to are in the sports business world, which of course would make it so they're biased in favor of the Bears side. I think the most telling of this is when they said "Arlington Heights could get this done if they wanted to," which is a hilarious thing to say given the state of things. Of course, AH/Cook could just cave and give the Bears everything they want to "get this done," but the Bears could also just not appeal the assessment and give Cook/AH what they want to "get this done." They're generally fine politically, but given how complicated this is I'm unsurprised they lean on their sources with the Bears who, of course, are going to complain and blame AH.

Maybe they could pull a Pritzker and yank out the toilets to reduce their property taxes?

In the end, yes they are asking for special circumstances. But where is a stadium ever built in this country where there isn't some type of help, however big or small? If Cook County or Arlington Heights are at a point of offering no tax certainty or any help at all..... that is ok, but then maybe they shouldn't pretend to be players for hosting this stadium.

You're right that municipalities are usually slobbering over themselves to get/retain an NFL team and offer them sweetheart deals (such as giving property tax exemptions for stadiums). We're lucky that Chicago is such as massive market that we really aren't at any risk of the Bears moving outside of the area, so they don't have the same leverage over Cook (and collars) that most NFL teams do. Given that property taxes are a zero-sum game, the worse a deal the Bears get, the better off literally everyone else in Cook is.

Also, the assessment is not an end-all-be-all. It's really just the start of the process. The Bears still have a lot of avenues to go through to lower their tax bill, including:

Appealing the assessment (like Churchhill Downs did)
Negotiating a TIF-district deal with AH

I can promise you that the Bears will pay less than what their assessment is. Even in Cook, big businesses still get deals. In my opinion, the Bears are just using this "we aren't ONLY looking at Arlington Heights" as leverage so once they go through the above processes, they have some negotiating power. That said, I doubt anyone will really buy it given they literally already bought the land and are doing a seemingly desperate about-face.

 

[Sarava]

Thanks! Hoge and Jahns never really have super well-thought out political takes (which I get, they are sports journalists after all). I listened to the podcast and it sounded like all of their sources that they're listening to are in the sports business world, which of course would make it so they're biased in favor of the Bears side. I think the most telling of this is when they said "Arlington Heights could get this done if they wanted to," which is a hilarious thing to say given the state of things. Of course, AH/Cook could just cave and give the Bears everything they want to "get this done," but the Bears could also just not appeal the assessment and give Cook/AH what they want to "get this done." They're generally fine politically, but given how complicated this is I'm unsurprised they lean on their sources with the Bears who, of course, are going to complain and blame AH.


You're right that municipalities are usually slobbering over themselves to get/retain an NFL team and offer them sweetheart deals (such as giving property tax exemptions for stadiums). We're lucky that Chicago is such as massive market that we really aren't at any risk of the Bears moving outside of the area, so they don't have the same leverage over Cook (and collars) that most NFL teams do. Given that property taxes are a zero-sum game, the worse a deal the Bears get, the better off literally everyone else in Cook is.

Also, the assessment is not an end-all-be-all. It's really just the start of the process. The Bears still have a lot of avenues to go through to lower their tax bill, including:

Appealing the assessment (like Churchhill Downs did)
Negotiating a TIF-district deal with AH

I can promise you that the Bears will pay less than what their assessment is. Even in Cook, big businesses still get deals. In my opinion, the Bears are just using this "we aren't ONLY looking at Arlington Heights" as leverage so once they go through the above processes, they have some negotiating power. That said, I doubt anyone will really buy it given they literally already bought the land and are doing a seemingly desperate about-face.

That may go back to what No Fun suspected - that the Bears were woefully unprepared and didnt expect the 5X tax increase. Honestly I dont know if there was any way to get that certainty before buying the property.

And deals from big projects do happen all the time. I recall when I lived in Naperville - Walmart wanted to rebuild a new store, and basically threeatened Naperville that if they didnt get big tax breaks, they would build the new store across the street in Aurora. Naperville gave them what they wanted and called it a good deal for the town.

 

[hawksrule]

That may go back to what No Fun suspected - that the Bears were woefully unprepared and didnt expect the 5X tax increase. Honestly I dont know if there was any way to get that certainty before buying the property.

All one has to do is call the tax assessor.

 

[Idionym]

That may go back to what No Fun suspected - that the Bears were woefully unprepared and didnt expect the 5X tax increase. Honestly I dont know if there was any way to get that certainty before buying the property.

That's honestly my biggest takeaway. Literally everything that has happened so far has been predictable and the most likely outcome. If the Bears thought this was gonna go any different than it has, they're paying the wrong people to give them political advice.

And deals from big projects do happen all the time. I recall when I lived in Naperville - Walmart wanted to rebuild a new store, and basically threeatened Naperville that if they didnt get big tax breaks, they would build the new store across the street in Aurora. Naperville gave them what they wanted and called it a good deal for the town.

Definitely, which is why I'm surprised the Bears have played this so poorly. Instead of playing municipalities off eachother and starting a bidding war, they bought a piece of land first and are now trying to go through that process. This whole strategy makes no sense and once again makes me think that the Bears are listening to the dumbest people that they could find.

 

[Space umpire]

That may go back to what No Fun suspected - that the Bears were woefully unprepared and didnt expect the 5X tax increase. Honestly I dont know if there was any way to get that certainty before buying the property.

And deals from big projects do happen all the time. I recall when I lived in Naperville - Walmart wanted to rebuild a new store, and basically threeatened Naperville that if they didnt get big tax breaks, they would build the new store across the street in Aurora. Naperville gave them what they wanted and called it a good deal for the town.

A lands value is not singular or essentially fixed. The Bears paid what they paid based on it meeting their specific needs.
If the Bears didn’t buy it or if they listed it for sale today do you think there is another buyer who will pay that?
The Bears invested based on what they specifically can turn it into. Saying it should be taxed on the sales price is false.
Also those saying homes are taxed at whatever price they recently sold for are being disingenuous. The home is already there. The land already improved.
In Oswego a builder recently paid $200 an acre for 25 acres of land that has major roads along all 4 borders. The tax was raised from its “farm” value but still less than 1/2 what it sold for. After a set aside for roads an elementary school and small park the remaining 17 acres were split into 51 1/3 acre building sites and sold for $110,000. Taxable value was about $60k.
Then the home is built, the finished product now has an actual tangible value. It is then that the tax value and the price paid should line up.
The Bears paid the price they did knowing they could turn it into a sports and business- corporate complex.
Cook county is taxing the property as it there will be a sports facility and office corporate space on the land.
When none of that exists they are guessing and making the Bears pay up front for what “might” be. What it they turn it into homeless shelters and drug rehab halfway houses?

 

[Idionym]

A lands value is not singular or essentially fixed. The Bears paid what they paid based on it meeting their specific needs.
If the Bears didn’t buy it or if they listed it for sale today do you think there is another buyer who will pay that?
The Bears invested based on what they specifically can turn it into. Saying it should be taxed on the sales price is false.
Also those saying homes are taxed at whatever price they recently sold for are being disingenuous. The home is already there. The land already improved.
In Oswego a builder recently paid $200 an acre for 25 acres of land that has major roads along all 4 borders. The tax was raised from its “farm” value but still less than 1/2 what it sold for. After a set aside for roads an elementary school and small park the remaining 17 acres were split into 51 1/3 acre building sites and sold for $110,000. Taxable value was about $60k.
Then the home is built, the finished product now has an actual tangible value. It is then that the tax value and the price paid should line up.
The Bears paid the price they did knowing they could turn it into a sports and business- corporate complex.
Cook county is taxing the property as it there will be a sports facility and office corporate space on the land.
When none of that exists they are guessing and making the Bears pay up front for what “might” be. What it they turn it into homeless shelters and drug rehab halfway houses?

The point of property assessments is to figure out how much the market price of a property is. The Bears paid 200m for the property, therefore the market value of the property is 200m. Everything else is irrelevant. Cook County isn't taxing the property on what it might be, it is very literally taxing it at exactly what it is right now. It doesn't matter what is or isn't on the land, it doesn't matter if the Bears overpaid or they paid for future value that is no longer there. The fact is, the REAL market value of the land is 200m because that's what the Bears paid, and therefore that's what the property assessment SHOULD be.

You can disagree with the model, and there are plenty of things to disagree with when it comes to our property tax system, but the Bears being priced exactly how everyone else is isn't one of those issues.

 

[Space umpire]

The point of property assessments is to figure out how much the market price of a property is. The Bears paid 200m for the property, therefore the market value of the property is 200m. Everything else is irrelevant. Cook County isn't taxing the property on what it might be, it is very literally taxing it at exactly what it is right now. It doesn't matter what is or isn't on the land, it doesn't matter if the Bears overpaid or they paid for future value that is no longer there. The fact is, the REAL market value of the land is 200m because that's what the Bears paid, and therefore that's what the property assessment SHOULD be.

You can disagree with the model, and there are plenty of things to disagree with when it comes to our property tax system, but the Bears being priced exactly how everyone else is isn't one of those issues.

if the Bears build in AH the property will be “worth” 100 times what it is now. So you’re saying that the Bears should expect that next tax bump as well?
Now we know why nobody builds in Cook County.

Bears down Naperville Bears, make every play clear the way to …

 

[Idionym]

if the Bears build in AH the property will be “worth” 100 times what it is now. So you’re saying that the Bears should expect that next tax bump as well?
Now we know why nobody builds in Cook County.

Bears down Naperville Bears, make every play clear the way to …

Yes. The Bears believed the property was worth 200m, and them adding to it will increase the property value. An increase in property value means an increase in property taxes, but it also means that the revenue generated from the property has increased.

I don't understand what you're disagreeing with? Do you believe that they should pay less than market value for their property, unlike literally everyone else? Do you believe that Cook County should give them a tax break at the expense of literally everyone else?

The Bears can explore Naperville, and Grant Werhli, their Mayor, will probably give them a good deal from the municipality. But the Bears are in for a rude awakening if they think the Naperville school boards are just gonna lie down and take it when it comes to giving up property tax revenue.

 

[Illinihockey]

Oh my god training camp needs to start