Balsillie puts in $212.5 mil offer for the Coyotes

[Fourier]

I am not a lawyer, but common sense would tell me that there is no way the court could enforce the transfer agreement. Moreover, Moyes and Balsillie must know this. It is also interesting to me that Balsillie claims that Moyes approached him about a possible offer. This has not been confirmed but it would make sense given the fact that the filing caught everyone by surprise and yet Balsillie was ready with the offer.

My guess is that we will see lots of twists and turns in this one.

 

[Evil Doctor]

I am a Nashville fan living near Buffalo.

I find this just plain weird when fans are fans of teams that are no where close
to where they live. I remember the news report about a fan in Columbus who was a fan of the Flames was arrested for threatening a Columbus player. Beyond the idiocy of the threatening, why would he be a fan of team he has no cultural connection too? For me, I'm a fan of Hamilton Tiger-Cats, Hamilton Bulldogs, and Toronto Maple Leafs (in that order), because they are the sports representations of my culture and heritage of where I grew up, and currently live and work.

It will kill Buffalo, not just the team but the city. Buffalo losing the Bills wouldn't matter much because the team is based in Orchard Park which is in East Bum**** in terms of the Sabres which is based in the middle of the city and much like the Preds in Nashville, drives the downtown area. Not to mention the allenating the fans of Phoenix from the sport of hockey. It's like the crusaders going to Jerusalem and realizing it's hard trying to convert the heathens to Christianity and running away and taking their bibles with them.

If it was a healthier economy this wouldn't be so bad but a move would not only put two bullets to the head of Phoenix but also Buffalo as well.

I don't believe that for one second. During the last go around with Nashville, the President of the Sabres mentioned that only 10% of their fan base is Canadian, and I'm betting most of them are from the Niagara Region. During the 80's the make up was more like 25% Canadian, but ever since the Sabres went exclusively to cable to air their games, their market penetration in Southern Ontario has become virtually zero. On the plus side, it is clear they've been able to fill the loss by building up the fan base stateside, likewise, unlike many US markets, the Sabres have no trouble getting noticed in their media, often leading newscasts with news items related to their team. The Sabres can survive easily with a team in Hamilton, and I think even thrive....

 

[Roughneck]

Those are the teams they want in the National games, but they don't want national games if people all across the western united states aren't going to watch.

People aren't watching in Phoenix anyway, so what difference does it make? you can only have "potential" for so long.

KC, Portland, Seattle, New Orleans, Houston. Take your pick; each of them helps to establish the game and grow the amount of people who watch hockey. Hamilton just means that people who used to watch Sabres or Leafs will now watch Coyotes.

KC has St. Louis, Seattle has Vancouver, Houston has Dallas. Much in the same way The Sabres and Leafs bring in Hamilton/K-W.

And Southern Ontario would mean ~18,000 paying premium prices for tickets 41 times (at least) a year, buying merchandise, attracting corporate investment etc. This is revenue that just wasn't happening in a failed sunbelt experiment, and it would benefit the league as a whole. No TV deal would be jeopardized because Phoenix is a negligible viewer market. If anything the added revenue from a regional Sportsnet deal/expanded TSN deal to include another Southern Ontario team would counteract any media losses in Arizona.

Having Phoenix isn't about putting them in the national games; its about spreading the popularity of hockey throughout the sunbelt. You can't do that with basically 1 team in between Atlanta and California.

I don't particularly care about the sparsely populated expanse between Dallas and LA, they have a team and don't go to watch it. I ask again, when do you cut your losses in Phoenix? Should the league prop them up to keep telling themselves that despite an empty arena that the popularity is spreading? Hockey has worked in SoCal, its worked in Dallas and while debateable, its worked in Florida. It isn't working in Phoenix.

Hockey will always be an afterthought in europe, but that market is big enough to support an afterthought better than hockey would do if held to the Northeast.

It doesn't matter how big the market is, if the fans in Barcelona and Madrid don't go to the games it doesn't really matter does it. So the real question is, can NE USA and Canada compete with Eastern Europe and Scandinavia?

 

[BogsDiamond]

I am not a lawyer, but common sense would tell me that there is no way the court could enforce the transfer agreement. Moreover, Moyes and Balsillie must know this. It is also interesting to me that Balsillie claims that Moyes approached him about a possible offer. This has not been confirmed but it would make sense given the fact that the filing caught everyone by surprise and yet Balsillie was ready with the offer.

My guess is that we will see lots of twists and turns in this one.

I heard this on XM this morning too. I'm starting to believe Ballsillie is telling the truth.
It took about 5 minutes for the NHL to remove Moyes from the equation once Ballsillie's offer was handed in.
J.B. probably offered Moyes a free Blackberry if he helped him out.

 

[ej_pens]

I find this just plain weird when fans are fans of teams that are no where close
to where they live. I remember the news report about a fan in Columbus who was a fan of the Flames was arrested for threatening a Columbus player. Beyond the idiocy of the threatening, why would he be a fan of team he has no cultural connection too? For me, I'm a fan of Hamilton Tiger-Cats, Hamilton Bulldogs, and Toronto Maple Leafs (in that order), because they are the sports representations of my culture and heritage of where I grew up, and currently live and work.
.

So how do you know that the Calgary fan wasn't originally from Calgary and moved to Columbus for work or school? Or maybe his parents were Calgary natives and he was "born" into a Flames family, long before the Blue Jackets were even a blip on the map.

 

[BobbyClarkeFan16]

From everything that I've read, it's clear that hockey in Phoenix just wasn't working. You can't expect an owner to lose hundreds of millions of dollars and say that it can still work. The only reason Bettman and company are raising a big stink is because it's Balsillie that's trying to buy it. If Gary and company really cared about hockey in Phoenix, they would have done everything they could have once Moyes announced he was losing a ridiculous amount of money. Funny thing is, the NHL did nothing until the Balsillie announcement and then they decided to take action.

Fact is, the top revenue drawing teams are going to get tired of continually bailing out teams who lose money. Part of Bettman's mandate during the lockout was that every team was going to be financially viable under the new CBA. That hasn't proven to be the case as we continually hear about clubs losing money and clubs that are searching for buyers. At some point, Bettman has to be held accountable for the financial problems of the league, namely failed expansion.

Mod-edit: deleted.

 

[copperandblue]

Well, one way or another it looks like this is finally going to come to a head. That is a good thing.

A few of my own random thoughts;

- I don't think it's fair to discuss this in a Canadian/US, winter/sunbelt way. Regardless of general opinions, I think it's fair to simply look at Phoenix as a location that hasn't taken to hockey. It's simply not working and at this point the reasons are pretty much irrelevant.

- I can't wrap my head around why Buffalo would be in such dire straits if there was another team in Southern Ontario. I understand that there is some border hopping for Buffalo games but it can't be that significant, can it? In addition, there are revenue sharing measures in place and having one more healthy and one less money losing club should actually benefit smaller but healthy teams like Buffalo. It should help them qualify for some of that money.

- It's a bit contradictory to what I referenced about another healthy franchise in Southern Ontario but I must be the only guy that doesn't think it's such a slam dunk for the GTA to embrace a second NHL team. Toronto is a Maple Leafs town, not a hockey town and it could take years for a new team to crack that fan base nut.

 

[seanlinden]

People aren't watching in Phoenix anyway, so what difference does it make? you can only have "potential" for so long.



KC has St. Louis, Seattle has Vancouver, Houston has Dallas. Much in the same way The Sabres and Leafs bring in Hamilton/K-W.

And Southern Ontario would mean ~18,000 paying premium prices for tickets 41 times (at least) a year, buying merchandise, attracting corporate investment etc. This is revenue that just wasn't happening in a failed sunbelt experiment, and it would benefit the league as a whole. No TV deal would be jeopardized because Phoenix is a negligible viewer market. If anything the added revenue from a regional Sportsnet deal/expanded TSN deal to include another Southern Ontario team would counteract any media losses in Arizona.




I don't particularly care about the sparsely populated expanse between Dallas and LA, they have a team and don't go to watch it. I ask again, when do you cut your losses in Phoenix? Should the league prop them up to keep telling themselves that despite an empty arena that the popularity is spreading? Hockey has worked in SoCal, its worked in Dallas and while debateable, its worked in Florida. It isn't working in Phoenix.



It doesn't matter how big the market is, if the fans in Barcelona and Madrid don't go to the games it doesn't really matter does it. So the real question is, can NE USA and Canada compete with Eastern Europe and Scandinavia?

That's the problem, they've gotta get people to start watching.

2 teams in an area is a lot stronger than 1; plus if you live in KC, are you going to be a Chiefs fan and a Blues Fan? The difference betwene those cities and hamilton is that if there's no franchise there; people aren't going to watch hockey. If there's no franchise in Hamilton, they'll just watch Buffalo or Toronto. No current TV deal would be jeopardized, but future ones would. The NHL cannot afford to fail in the sunbelt. The extra revenue from a team in Hamilton is a short term gain for long term losses.

That's why you've gotta make them go watch it. You cut your losses in Phoenix when you realize that it's never going to work. If you come to that realization, then you look to expand elsehwere, perhaps leeching off a slightly stronger hockey area (like Kansas City where people are already exposed to hockey).

Fans in Barcelona and Madrid would be tempted to start going to games if every other european country had a hockey presence. You've gotta start from somewhere, and currently they've got a very solid footprint in a few countries.

 

[AF1982]

Fans in Barcelona and Madrid would be tempted to start going to games if every other european country had a hockey presence. You've gotta start from somewhere, and currently they've got a very solid footprint in a few countries.

Spain is relatively successful in hockey. They recently won the Silver medal at the Olympics.

 

[Evil Doctor]

Those are the teams they want in the National games, but they don't want national games if people all across the western united states aren't going to watch.

KC, Portland, Seattle, New Orleans, Houston. Take your pick; each of them helps to establish the game and grow the amount of people who watch hockey. Hamilton just means that people who used to watch Sabres or Leafs will now watch Coyotes.

Having Phoenix isn't about putting them in the national games; its about spreading the popularity of hockey throughout the sunbelt. You can't do that with basically 1 team in between Atlanta and California. Hockey will always be an afterthought in europe, but that market is big enough to support an afterthought better than hockey would do if held to the Northeast.

Funny how often this gets trotted out. When Winnipeg moved to Phoenix, the NHL had a contract, a rich one, with ABC that was almost as valuable as the one north of the border, and how did that work out? You can't shoehorn in interest when there isn't any their any to begin with. You have to build from the bottom up, not the top down.

What is worse is when you take for granted your hardcore fan base. Most Canadian fans feel dumped on by the NHL. You alienate that fan base, what do you have left? If Canadians start drifting away from the professional game, their kids might not take up hockey as a sport and suddenly the player pool to draw from starts to dry up. As a personal example, this is the first year I have yet to watch a full NHL game since the 1975-76 season when I was 10 years old and had to go to bed before the third period of Leafs game on HNIC. I'm just one person, but how many others are like me?

 

[seanlinden]

Funny how often this gets trotted out. When Winnipeg moved to Phoenix, the NHL had a contract, a rich one, with ABC that was almost as valuable as the one north of the border, and how did that work out? You can't shoehorn in interest when there isn't any their any to begin with. You have to build from the bottom up, not the top down.

What is worse is when you take for granted your hardcore fan base. Most Canadian fans feel dumped on by the NHL. You alienate that fan base, what do you have left? If Canadians start drifting away from the professional game, their kids might not take up hockey as a sport and suddenly the player pool to draw from starts to dry up. As a personal example, this is the first year I have yet to watch a full NHL game since the 1975-76 season when I was 10 years old and had to go to bed before the third period of Leafs game on HNIC. I'm just one person, but how many others are like me?

Do you really believe that Canadians are going to stop watching? I don't know a single Canadian who doesn't hate Gary Bettman, and they still all watch. Their kids still grow up idolizing hockey players. Hockey is ingrained in our culture, and to put it simply; we as a country don't have the power to stop watching. Thats the kind of customer that you don't have to worry about alienating.

 

[ranold26]

Poor Gary..... from December 31st.... 3:15 mark
http://www.cnbc.com/id/15840232?video=980382730&play=1

LIAR!

 

[Evil Doctor]

So how do you know that the Calgary fan wasn't originally from Calgary and moved to Columbus for work or school? Or maybe his parents were Calgary natives and he was "born" into a Flames family, long before the Blue Jackets were even a blip on the map.

It is possible, and I certainly don't put down fans that move and stay loyal to the old hometown team (except for immigrant European soccer fans, I will give them no quarter...), but admit it, we all know people who cheer for teams (as their primary) they have no geographical connection to. I can't wrap my head around that attitude.

 

[embracedbias]

It's like the crusaders going to Jerusalem and realizing it's hard trying to convert the heathens to Christianity and running away and taking their bibles with them.

To be fair, the crusaders massacred the Jews and Muslims (depending on which crusade you are talking about, of course). They didn't run away because these people couldn't be converted, they ran away because they were defeated militarily.

OT, yes. I'm quirky in that way.

 

[Evil Doctor]

Spain is relatively successful in hockey. They recently won the Silver medal at the Olympics.

Er...I don't think you're talking about what everyone else is talking about.....

 

[May Day 10]

The effect a team in Hamilton would have on Buffalo is overstated.

like someone said, the Sabres' footprint in Canada is relatively minimal. A lot of Canadians who are Sabres fans would reasonably remain that way.

A new rivalry would be formed. The Sabres raise ticket prices for games against Toronto and Montreal and pack the arena (this year they raised them just a bit too much). They will have another team there 3-4 times a year which would be a high priced game.

Also, if there are territory fees, the Sabres would appreciate that.

I think the Pros and Cons even out for the most part.

 

[pdxshark]

I wonder if Paul Allen wanted to buy the team and move them to Portland if that would be preferable to the league.

To those not from here, paul allen owning the team is the only realistic scenario for getting a team into the rose city.

(paul allens blazers sold out every game this season I believe)

 

[roosterman]

Playing at the ACC is not a win-win; it completely dilutes the Leaf brand and there's no amount of money you could place on that for MLSE. They'll let the team go to Waterloo or Hamilton before they let them set foot on downtown soil.

I disagree... The Leafs brand will be just fine and MLSE does stand to gain financially with another team at the ACC.

The Leafs get:

1) Infringement fees ($200M +?)
2) Additional rental income (millions per year)
3) Less stadium competition as a result of no newer stadium built in the GTA area. This ensures no income loss as a result of a newer venue being built.

For those of you who think an arena cannot support three major teams, look at the Staples Center as proof that it can work (Lakers, Clippers and Kings).

The new team gets:

1) A prime location with 7+ Million people to draw from and as a result can charge more than they would be able to in Hamilton or the KW area. More money.
2) Save millions in the cost of building a new arena or renovating the Copps (160M - 400M)

 

[BogsDiamond]

I disagree... The Leafs brand will be just fine and MLSE does stand to gain financially with another team at the ACC.

The Leafs get:

1) Infringement fees ($200M +?)
2) Additional rental income (millions per year)
3) Less stadium competition as a result of no newer stadium built in the GTA area. This ensures no income loss as a result of a newer venue being built.

For those of you who think an arena cannot support three major teams, look at the Staples Center as proof that it can work (Lakers, Clippers and Kings).

The new team gets:

1) A prime location with 7+ Million people to draw from and as a result can charge more than they would be able to in Hamilton or the KW area. More money.
2) Save millions in the cost of building a new arena or renovating the Copps (160M - 400M)

I 2nd this argument.
I doubt Ballsillie will want to share a facility, but if MLSE were smart, they'd try to get an expansion team (or any other team hurting for money) and put it in the ACC. They'd double their earnings before batting an eye.

 

[seanlinden]

I disagree... The Leafs brand will be just fine and MLSE does stand to gain financially with another team at the ACC.

The Leafs get:

1) Infringement fees ($200M +?)
2) Additional rental income (millions per year)
3) Less stadium competition as a result of no newer stadium built in the GTA area. This ensures no income loss as a result of a newer venue being built.

For those of you who think an arena cannot support three major teams, look at the Staples Center as proof that it can work (Lakers, Clippers and Kings).

The new team gets:

1) A prime location with 7+ Million people to draw from and as a result can charge more than they would be able to in Hamilton or the KW area. More money.
2) Save millions in the cost of building a new arena or renovating the Copps (160M - 400M)

The leafs brand will be fine, but it will not be as strong as if there were no other downtown team.

1. Short term cash means nothing. They have enough money to do anything they want.

2. Rental income doesn't pay for the loss in Leaf brand.

3. MLSE will build a new arena before they let someone else do it.

MLSE is a growth company, they have no interest in diluting their assets for cash.

 

[saskganesh]

To be fair, the crusaders massacred the Jews and Muslims (depending on which crusade you are talking about, of course). They didn't run away because these people couldn't be converted, they ran away because they were defeated militarily.

Battle of Hattin. They were trapped in the desert because of bad leadership.

hmm. actually, it's not that bad an analogy.

 

[Ward Cornell]

Funny how often this gets trotted out. When Winnipeg moved to Phoenix, the NHL had a contract, a rich one, with ABC that was almost as valuable as the one north of the border, and how did that work out? You can't shoehorn in interest when there isn't any their any to begin with. You have to build from the bottom up, not the top down.

What is worse is when you take for granted your hardcore fan base. Most Canadian fans feel dumped on by the NHL. You alienate that fan base, what do you have left? If Canadians start drifting away from the professional game, their kids might not take up hockey as a sport and suddenly the player pool to draw from starts to dry up. As a personal example, this is the first year I have yet to watch a full NHL game since the 1975-76 season when I was 10 years old and had to go to bed before the third period of Leafs game on HNIC. I'm just one person, but how many others are like me?

It's very difficult to broker a TV deal when a lot of the seats in the arenas are empty and news reports of these teams are about troubling times. Which leads to the question why would a network want to invest in something that some of the leagues cities are totally tuned out about hockey.
Conversely when the stands are full with passionate fans, it would show the networks that they are missing the boat on a growing sport!
Convers

 

[BigFatCat999]

I find this just plain weird when fans are fans of teams that are no where close
to where they live. I remember the news report about a fan in Columbus who was a fan of the Flames was arrested for threatening a Columbus player. Beyond the idiocy of the threatening, why would he be a fan of team he has no cultural connection too? For me, I'm a fan of Hamilton Tiger-Cats, Hamilton Bulldogs, and Toronto Maple Leafs (in that order), because they are the sports representations of my culture and heritage of where I grew up, and currently live and work.

>Simple, I lost my connect to the Bruins because of the cheep assed ownership. I was out of Hockey and frankly I probably would not have come back to it if it wasn't for watching the play of the Nashville Predators when I lived in the Tennessee region. (I'm only in NY state because of work.)


I don't believe that for one second. During the last go around with Nashville, the President of the Sabres mentioned that only 10% of their fan base is Canadian, and I'm betting most of them are from the Niagara Region. During the 80's the make up was more like 25% Canadian, but ever since the Sabres went exclusively to cable to air their games, their market penetration in Southern Ontario has become virtually zero. On the plus side, it is clear they've been able to fill the loss by building up the fan base stateside, likewise, unlike many US markets, the Sabres have no trouble getting noticed in their media, often leading newscasts with news items related to their team. The Sabres can survive easily with a team in Hamilton, and I think even thrive....

And you haven't seen the Peace Bridge when game time comes around. The traffic is insane. Canadians who have been allenated by the Leafs piss poor play have gone to the Sabres. Most of the hockey fans I know in Canada are eliteist. They will only pay attension to the NHL. The common phrase I heard from Hamiltonians is this.

"Why go to an AHL game when i can drive over and see an NHL game for the same price?"

No, the Sabers would not do well with a team in Hamilton. When you put a team in Hamilton you not only convert the Hamilton Sabres fans but also the fringe fans. A team claims a population around it. (That's why there is such things as territory boundaries.) Hamilton is on the border of Sabres and Toronto's territorial borders. Now KW is just outside of both Balls will build there BUT it will still siphon from Toronto and Buffalo.

 

[AF1982]

And how is the NHL not in a position to compete with the Europeans long term? And why would we need failing hockey markets to do so? Is the KHL expanding to the hockey hotbeds of Madrid and Lisbon? I don't get that point at all. Surely the thing to best "compete" with the Europeans is having a league full of economically successful teams.

As I mentioned, thinking hockey needs Phoenix to compete with Europe is akin to thinking a European league needs Lisbon to compete with North America.

Having Phoenix isn't about putting them in the national games; its about spreading the popularity of hockey throughout the sunbelt. You can't do that with basically 1 team in between Atlanta and California. Hockey will always be an afterthought in europe, but that market is big enough to support an afterthought better than hockey would do if held to the Northeast.

Fans in Barcelona and Madrid would be tempted to start going to games if every other european country had a hockey presence. You've gotta start from somewhere, and currently they've got a very solid footprint in a few countries.

Er...I don't think you're talking about what everyone else is talking about.....

The orginal point was basically that the NHL needs teams Phoenix to compete with Europeans leagues. Roughneck made a beautiful comparison of the fact that the KHL will never be competitve with teams in non-hockey markets (such as Spain or Portugal.)

View my post as a support to Roughnecks argument. People in Spain associate hockey with FIELD hockey and NOT with ICE hockey. Similar story for Phoenix. The majority of the population of the city likely don't know or care about hockey.

 

[TaketheCannoli]

Poor Gary..... from December 31st.... 3:15 mark
http://www.cnbc.com/id/15840232?video=980382730&play=1

LIAR!

What did you want him to say? Bettman is the face of the BOG. He has to support all of the teams publicly. Anything else would have undermined the team and the league this season.