Balsillie/Phoenix part V

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oilers_guy_eddie

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I also believe that Hamilton/Toronto 2 is better served in the West as it differentiates the product. HNIC would be in heaven.
Why? Another Ontario team that doesn't get on TV during the early games?

Or to try to give Ontario viewers a reason to stay up to 1am?

If the CBC winds up taking Vancouver, Calgary, Edmonton games off the schedule to put Hamilton road games on TV to provide late-night viewing for Ontario customers, that'll go over like a turd in a punch-bowl.



The time zone issue is valid (mainly for Vancouver). However, West to East is vastly preferable to East to West (a 4:30-5:30 start works ok for TV, a 10:30 start sucks). However, due to competition with the Leafs for TV time, I think later starts works ok for Hamilton as well. So long as they are in the West, this is always going to be an issue for them.

Why would you think 4:30pm starts are ok? I've missed half of the playoffs because eastern time zone games are already in the 3rd period by the time I get home from work.


But you miss my point entirely because you are hung up on how far team A is from team B. I believe (honestly) that Vancouver, Calgary and Edmonton would end up with a LESS grueling travel schedule with Hamilton instead of 2 games in Phoenix and 1 in Colorado.

The amount of miles in the air isn't the biggest factor. I don't believe the flying time difference between Phoenix or Hamilton is that big of a deal.

The time zone change is a bigger deal when travelling than an extra half hour or hour in the air.

And the ground travel at the other end is a bigger factor. If you're flying to Phoenix you're going straight to a premium airport and you'll have close access to where you're staying.

I've made several business trips to Ontario recently, and find that going through Lester Pearson airport and then having to get out on the 401 is more grueling than the actual flight, especially if your final destination isn't right close by. Flying in to Toronto and then having an hour+ drive to get where you're going is grueling. Now, I don't know much about Hamilton's airport, but my experience is that communities with much larger airports nearby tend to have miserable air facilities that just act as feeders to the major airport, often run restricted hours (ie, a team wanting to fly into Hamilton or out of Hamilton right after a game might well be SOL at their airport.)
 

MoreOrr

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If this particular team stays in Glendale, there is nothing that prevents the NHL from placing another team in the Greater Toronto Area, assuming an owner would be willing to make a go of it. If the proposed location is a problem for exisiting teams, they might in fact be better off by abandoning the idea of Hamilton-- and THEN placing a new team in So Ontario, perhaps in Mississauga, Vaughn or elsewhere in the GTA. They'd also be able to collect a franchise fee.

Open your eyes, the NHL doesn't want a team in the Hamilton area, and likely not in any other southern Ontario city. And Balsillie wants a team in the Hamilton area, he's not asking for a team in Mississauga or wherever.

Simply stated, the "business" decision for the league is this:

4. The League belisves that at the right time, it can sell the expansion franchise to Balsilie or whoever else and charge say a $350M franchise fee;

Expansion Fees for a team in Hamilton is a non-issue, because MLSE, and thus the BOG, don't want a team there.
 

mnwildfan79

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Open your eyes, the NHL doesn't want a team in the Hamilton area, and likely not in any other southern Ontario city. And Balsillie wants a team in the Hamilton area, he's not asking for a team in Mississauga or wherever.

They don't want a team in Toronto's territory without payment them and Buffalo territorial fees, that's for sure.

Expansion Fees for a team in Hamilton is a non-issue, because MLSE, and thus the BOG, don't want a team there.

Actually whether MLSE wants a team there or not is a non-issue because JB is unwilling to even pay expansion fees.

Assuming the issue truely were put to a BOG vote, and the expansion fee was 300 million (many speculate it would be higher) do you really think MLSE has that much power within the BOG to prevent those other owners from getting their share of that money? What does MLSE have compromising photos of every other owner in the league?
 

MoreOrr

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How would that scenario in ANY way be better for the NHL than what they are doing?

I, and maybe Fugu, I won't speak for him, am not arguing about whether the NHL allowing the Coyotes to be moved to Hamilton and then putting an expansion team in Phoenix would be better for the NHL. The point that I'm making is that the primary issue isn't about which option might be 'marginally' better economically for the League, it's about what the League doesn't want... They don't want Balsillie to put a team in the Hamilton area!

But besides, to contradict Fugu's and my statement about an expansion team going to Phoenix, I'll say for myself that I was being a bit facetious, because if Phoenix has been losing so much money all this time then who would be foolish enough to lay down the Expansion Fees anytime soon to put another team there. But of course, if the League and a potential owner truly believe that it could be profitable, then why not go that route. Why? Because expansion fees are not a primary issue here.
 

projexns

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Honestly, do people still believe this crap? That the league is going to "grow the game" in non-traditional markets? That people that have gone generations without knowing or caring about what a puck looks like are going to take up a sudden interest in hockey?

The Sun Belt experiment has been an unmitigated disaster. An utter failure, in every possible sense.

People are never going to care about hockey (in large numbers) in Florida, or Arizona, or Nashville, or Las Vegas, or ...

And you know what? That's okay. Our game is fine. We don't need to force feed it to people who aren't interested. We don't need to change our rules and our traditions to lure people who aren't coming, all the while shunning the very fans who've built the league to what it is.

This misconception that the league, one day, is going to be poplular throughout the United States, and that a network is going to come calling with a massive TV contract is so beyond reality that it makes me worry about the mental health of the people who believe it.

If there is a demand for hockey in non-traditional markets, then by all means, expand there. But don't shoehorn franchises in markets that aren't interested. Don't compromise the integrity of the sport in the hope that new fans are going to flock to your product.

Eventually, the owners will realize that the economy of the game is driven by fans in traditional markets, and that the smart business strategy is to exploit those markets, and to consolidate your strengths rather than grasping at the false promises of non-traditonal markets.

Pure Gold.

I think there are some younger posters who don’t realize that this quest for a national TV deal began a long, long time ago.

It was 39 YEARS AGO!...that I watched Bobby Orr flying through the air to score the Stanley Cup game-winning goal. That game was on CBS. Dan Kelly doing the play-by-play. Tim Ryan hosting the intermissions. Peter Puck providing hockey tips.

Bobby Orr and the Big Bad Bruins.

Bobby Clarke and the Broad Street Bullies

The Miracle on Ice at the 1980 Lake Placid Olympics

Wayne Gretzky in Los Angeles

Mark Messier and the New York Rangers winning the Cup in 1994

Lemieux……Crosby…….Ovechkin……..

After 40 years, that big U.S. TV network contract is not going to happen. Hockey will never have the accessibility that baseball, basketball, and football have to U.S. kids, and thus it will not be ingrained into the American culture like these sports.

It’s as if there’s something wrong with being a $2.3 billion+ niche sport where players earn an average of $2 million a year and the highest paid players can get $10 million.
And where teams, if they are popular enough, can enhance their revenues with REGIONAL TV deals that they don’t have to share with the other teams in the league.

It’s not the NFL, MLB, or the NBA, but it’s hardly a failure either.
 

MoreOrr

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So moving teams away from there is going to all of a sudden get people to start watching.... not sure I follow the logic there.

My logic is that a team that has had serious financial problems over many Seasons, and has still a very small fanbase, isn't going to be the fountain from which a southwestern USA TV audience will spring. If the League wishes to experiment further in the general southwest region, it has a few other options: Houston or Las Vegas to name two. Or, it can eventually try to get another team back in Phoenix.

OR... it can find some magically way of assuring that the Coyotes are going to become successful in the near future. Hmmm... the best way might be to find a way to make sure they win the Cup.
- Let's see.... Colorado won a Cup very shortly after getting a team again. That put the Avalanche on the map. (Of course in the Avalanche's case the Nordiques had a team on the verge of success.
- Dallas won a Cup not so long after the team got moved there.
- Tampa Bay won a Cup not so very long after getting a team.
- Carolina won a Cup, and had a previous Cup Final not so very long after getting a team.
- Anaheim had a Cup Final and then a Cup without having to wait too long.
- Florida at least had a Cup Final early in their history, but unfortunately it was up against Colorado which also just got a new team.

So, if the League can arrange the same for Phoenix, then I suppose they feel certain that things can be turned around.
 

MoreOrr

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Texas is loaded with minor league hocky, fwiw...

If true, then thanks for that info!

But then I suppose I could ask: Is it Dallas that would bring the widespread TV audience, or the fact that minor league hockey creates young people who then have an interest in hockey? I guess, it's what came first, the chicken or the egg?

Was it just having the Dallas Stars that then created a widespread interest in minor league hockey across Texas, or was it an interest in minor league hockey that brought the Stars to Dallas? And secondly, was it just the Stars or was it the on-ice success of the Stars? And can the on-ice success of any team be guaranteed?
 
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BruinsBtn

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7. The League needs a national TV deal for long term sustainability. They aren't going to get that while they have 1 team in the sunbelt between Atlanta & California.

The NHL is the second-oldest professional sports league in North America. I don't think long-term sustainability is the problem. It has been 15 years since the NHL started putting teams in every market in the southern U.S. It's time to cut some losses. Besides, in another 5-10 years television will all be on the internet.
 
Nov 13, 2006
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This is the NHL's position, and thus not the fact you are trying to present as in this debate.

Moyes is trying to get the best deal he can for himself. The courts will decide if he can do this or not.

I understand why the NHL would fight his move. I understand why Moyes is trying to recoup hundreds of millions in losses.

The NHL's position may in fact be tenable, but I don't think it's as near of a slam dunk as you are presenting it here.

According to the Canadian Competition Authority, the NHL's assertion is valid.



Who says it's irreparable?

JB's current offer does not make them whole-- in the sense that he has not offered anything, and there are no provable/quantifiable figures that have been presented as to what real damage might be.

Again-- the law will decide IF teams can claim a market to be exclusively theirs; and to the extent that this is upheld, a figure will be derived as to damages. JB then can pay that or pull his offer. I have no problem with that.

I am tired of you calling the APA and offer when you know full well it isn't an offer, and acting as if it's open to negotiation. It's not an offer it's a contract in place.

Are you saying that putting a team in Hamilton will not damage the Sabres and the Leafs? That APA, once again a CONTRACT specifically states that neither the NHL or any team will be paid any rights fees.


I have never stated this.



I don't want to get into 'which' teams I'd cut, but I am on record here as to my personal opinion/preference about the size of the league (usually I have it at 20-24 teams). I would not put any more teams in Canada, were I to have my 20-24 team league; however I do see a business case for the GTA being able to support a second team and being able to do so better than some current US markets.

No you never specifically stated this; you make comments about non-traditional markets, southern markets etc. but never define them. I find that interesting.



Thus, you're off base again with your Canada comment. That's not my position, and never has been.

Then please share your opinion with some specificity. You regularly request that of others. Please do the same.

Revenues. Total HRR would decrease (duh) if you folded six teams. Let's do the math. Six teams, avg revenue of $60 million, HRR goes down by $360 million. Would TV contracts decline in a commensurate fashion? Well, no, on the Canadian front. US? It's about $80-90 million between NBC and VS. Take your pick.

The remaining teams would either have to play more games against each other; or they would lose revenue by playing fewer games. They would have fewer teams to spread out the remaining value of the TV contracts, thus they'd get more per team.

I don't believe that they would get more per team, simply because of Kelly's interview.
 

Fugu

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Please accept my apology, I wasn't clear in quoting Kelly. He said those networks told the PA with no teams in that area, they are unwilling to broadcast the NHL nationally. Since Kelly actually attends these meetings and discusses these with the networks, I accept his claims. If you don't that's your prerogative.

You still aren't addressing what you stated earlier. It was rather all-encompassing about having market presence to compete for the NA sports entertainment dollar.

If by this you mean just the TV dollars, well say that. There is more to the NA sports dollar than national TV money-- as the NHL knows. It's been said before, the league is a two and half billion dollar industry without the enormous TV deal. Would it be 'nice' to have? Maybe, if you're an owner, but from my perspective, it doesn't really change much in my viewing or accessibility options.

Regarding what NBC and/or others saying they need those cities. Well, they aren't really putting their money where mouth is, are they? When they start selecting the West games to broadcast nationally, THEN we're on to something. It's all well and good to say that, but then lapse into always selecting games that include 1 of 5 teams. If you only need certain teams in certain markets to be on national TV, why have the other teams? The national broadcasters clearly show they aren't interested. This isn't just about hockey either. The ratings for the NBA don't do as well when the big city teams aren't in the playoffs. The footprint is a myth as evidenced by the networks' own behavior at the national level.
 
Nov 13, 2006
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Open your eyes, the NHL doesn't want a team in the Hamilton area, and likely not in any other southern Ontario city. And Balsillie wants a team in the Hamilton area, he's not asking for a team in Mississauga or wherever.



Expansion Fees for a team in Hamilton is a non-issue, because MLSE, and thus the BOG, don't want a team there.

I'm not confused at all. The BoG- meaning the majority of the owners of other teams don't want another team in So. Ontario unless someone pays handsomely for that, and pays the Leafs and Sabres. They own the league and I believe they are well within their rights. I think an awful lot of fans are confused and think someplace "deserves" an NHL team because some fans want it there. It doesn't work that way.
 

seanlinden

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The NHL is the second-oldest professional sports league in North America. I don't think long-term sustainability is the problem. It has been 15 years since the NHL started putting teams in every market in the southern U.S. It's time to cut some losses. Besides, in another 5-10 years television will all be on the internet.

Oh the NHL will be around; as a development league for europe.
 

BigFatCat999

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The NHL is the second-oldest professional sports league in North America. I don't think long-term sustainability is the problem. It has been 15 years since the NHL started putting teams in every market in the southern U.S. It's time to cut some losses. Besides, in another 5-10 years television will all be on the internet.

And that is where the NHL is leaps and bounds ahead of the other leagues. The league is banking on the internet and wouldn't it be interesting if the NHL directly charged minimal fees for national games via internet and they wouldn't have to go through a middleman (CBS, NBC, ABC)
 

MoreOrr

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I'm not confused at all. The BoG- meaning the majority of the owners of other teams don't want another team in So. Ontario unless someone pays handsomely for that, and pays the Leafs and Sabres. They own the league and I believe they are well within their rights. I think an awful lot of fans are confused and think someplace "deserves" an NHL team because some fans want it there. It doesn't work that way.

You see, that's it. Can someone please confirm that this is exactly the case?

Balsillie says that he's been told straight out that MLSE will never grant him the rights to put a team in Hamilton... my interpretation being, no matter what Territorial Fee amount he might pay. Or at least making it an amount that would be ridiculous even for Balsillie to pay.

While others are arguing that it's just that Balsillie refuses to pay any Territorial Fees.

Can someone show us some evidence as to which of these arguments is the truth?
 
Nov 13, 2006
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You still aren't addressing what you stated earlier. It was rather all-encompassing about having market presence to compete for the NA sports entertainment dollar.

If by this you mean just the TV dollars, well say that. There is more to the NA sports dollar than national TV money-- as the NHL knows. It's been said before, the league is a two and half billion dollar industry without the enormous TV deal. Would it be 'nice' to have? Maybe, if you're an owner, but from my perspective, it doesn't really change much in my viewing or accessibility options.

Regarding what NBC and/or others saying they need those cities. Well, they aren't really putting their money where mouth is, are they? When they start selecting the West games to broadcast nationally, THEN we're on to something. It's all well and good to say that, but then lapse into always selecting games that include 1 of 5 teams. If you only need certain teams in certain markets to be on national TV, why have the other teams? The national broadcasters clearly show they aren't interested. This isn't just about hockey either. The ratings for the NBA don't do as well when the big city teams aren't in the playoffs. The footprint is a myth as evidenced by the networks' own behavior at the national level.


I do mean more than TV funds. In order to compete in the US national market, the NHL needs to generate enough press and marketing to create enough top of mind awareness nationally (presence). The more teams that are written about, blogged about, shown on TV, broadcast, discussed etc., the greater the top of mind awareness. Leaving holes in the geographic market leaves gaps, just as leaving a gap in Manitoba is also detrimental to reaching NA presence critical mass.

I also agree regarding the inclinations of national networks. This is true in both affected countries. The CBC seems to think hockey fans are only interested in Toronto on Saturday nights. Some playoff games were on TSN2 this year, which like Versus is not always available. The NBC thinks the US only wants to see Philly, Pittsburgh, Boston and the Rangers, with a few Red Wings games tossed in.

The US networks only seem to want to show Cleveland, NY, LA Lakers, Boston and Chicago as well in the NBA. The only place they seem to get close to even distribution is the NFL. Do you ever wonder why they do a much better job? I believe it's because unlike MLB, the NHL, and the NBA, the NFL does not allow teams to have local TV rights, and the NFL requires in it's national TV rights agreements that every game played by every team is broadcast. This pretty much reduces the need for true revenue sharing as it is accomplished through the mega TV contracts.
 

Fugu

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According to the Canadian Competition Authority, the NHL's assertion is valid.

Then you should have no worry about how this will resolve. Furthermore, the last time I checked, the CCA isn't a court of law, is it?
I am tired of you calling the APA and offer when you know full well it isn't an offer, and acting as if it's open to negotiation. It's not an offer it's a contract in place.

Contracts can't be amended? Okay.

Seems to me the judge has already scratched an item or two, but go ahead with being incensed.

Secondly, cannot anyone come in with another offer? Just because JB has this one, and/or if it he pulls it, can't he make another offer?

Are you saying that putting a team in Hamilton will not damage the Sabres and the Leafs? That APA, once again a CONTRACT specifically states that neither the NHL or any team will be paid any rights fees.

Irreparable damage. Your words.

I-R-R-E-P-A-R-A-B-L-E damage. I called you on it. Don't try to revise at this stage. (I'm not buying the irreparable damage part.)


...you make comments about non-traditional markets, southern markets etc. but never define them. I find that interesting.

You're welcome to dig through the forum and my 12K posts to find my dissertations on the topic. I was making an effort to not go too far OT, but lest it appear that I'm too worried about calling a spade a spade, I'll give you the abridged version: teams with a higher market potential and high revenues are already in the A group. It's also how Bain Capital came up with three tiers of teams in their offer. The second group of teams has a high market potential based on basic things like total population, income and demographics where NHL teams have flourished, etc. The sun does shine most of the year on a few of these (e.g., Atlanta, Dallas, LA, SJ). The teams that will have a hard time have a small population and corporate base as compared to the cities in the first two categories; thus their market potential, even under the best of circumstances can only be a half to a third of the bigger markets. Not their fault. Size counts.

Sorry, to disappoint but it's nearly as conspiratorial as you'd like it to be so you could lump it into the preconceived notions you've already brought to this argument in abundance.

Then please share your opinion with some specificity. You regularly request that of others. Please do the same.

Canadian markets are different. Without revenue sharing and a low CAD, they're not a good bet in the smaller cities either. They are however a better bet than smaller US markets. The question then is, how many of these size-challenged markets should a major sports league have, and ultimately need to subsidize? If you think of it terms of market penetration, or a rate of acceptance, Canadians watch more hockey than Americans, and pay more per ticket. All you have to do is compare the dollars/team in the US and Canada once you correct for currency differences. Obviously currency plays a large role that cannot be ignored. The question for the league is whether or not they're willing to ensure that disparities due to currency fluctuations are corrected (or equalized). One might also ask if there is more national TV money to be squeezed out of Canada. If there are two more teams (say Hamilton and Winnipeg), could more money come from TSN, CBC, et. al. That is a legitimate question that shouldn't be ignored due to the incessant nationalistic battles here.

The issue of smaller markets in the US is simply that the revenue gap between them and the biggest markets isn't easily addressed. If you bet that Phoenix or Atlanta can grow enough in a 10 yr period and become large revenue teams, then you have a basis for an investment. They are very big cities, and if they do get turned around, they fit the market potential argument. There are other cities that no matter what more you do at the local level, they'll never attract the media money and gate prices that a Chicago, NY and LA should be able to garner. Furthermore, if they're not registering on the national broadcasters' radar, how does having teams in these places really make the difference between the $100 million in a national TV deal and the $1 billion contract? No one wants to tell me how you go from $100 million to $1 billion. That's the premise of the Footprint ideology, but honestly, what evidence is there that it's even remotely feasible, seeing the league is already at 30 teams and has the footprint. What happens next to catapult it to the next level? Phoenix of LA or Dallas winning the Cup? IS THAT REALLY WHAT ANYONE IS SAYING?
 
Nov 13, 2006
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You see, that's it. Can someone please confirm that this is exactly the case?

Balsillie says that he's been told straight out that MLSE will never grant him the rights to put a team in Hamilton... my interpretation being, no matter what Territorial Fee amount he might pay. Or at least making it an amount that would be ridiculous even for Balsillie to pay.

While others are arguing that it's just that Balsillie refuses to pay any Territorial Fees.

Can someone show us some evidence as to which of these arguments is the truth?

You may never find out which it is and does it really matter? They own the league. No city gets a team because you as a fan want one there.

Here's an example. I'm in Columbus. We have a huge number of Tim Horton's here. I believe this is because until a couple years ago, Tim Horton's was owned by Wendys. Wendys' HQ (head office) is in Columbus. For whatever reason they have not opened a single Timmys in Cincinnati. People in Cincinnati that are familiar with the chain have asked them to open in Cincinnati. They've said no.
They haven't said why, just no. It's their right to do so.
 

HockeyScholar

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Sep 9, 2006
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I am really amazed that some posters are still arguing that we need Phoenix in the league for that mythical American TV deal.

Phoenix averaged 7000 viewers per game, despite being in playoff contention for a majority of the year. Time to look at the facts guys. Having Phoenix in the league averaging 7000 viewers isn't going to do much to get that mythical ESPN deal.

According to Stephen Brunt, the lockout year was the most financially successful year for Phoenix. There is something to be said for this.

I would be very surprised if a buyer purchased the Coyotes and kept them in Phoenix. This situation is a financial abyss, and the only solution is relocation.
 

Moobles

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Mar 15, 2009
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Are you saying that putting a team in Hamilton will not damage the Sabres and the Leafs? That APA, once again a CONTRACT specifically states that neither the NHL or any team will be paid any rights fees.

This is something that is going to become increasingly disputed in the NHL if certain markets do not have their demand satisfied. It is not exactly easy for a person from Southern Ontario to go to a game in Buffalo or Toronto; it's possible, and it's not incredibly difficult, but with a person willing to buy a hockey team and place it in the area from a business perspective, unless something in the long-run hurts there is no rational reason to withhold.
 

MoreOrr

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You may never find out which it is and does it really matter? They own the league. No city gets a team because you as a fan want one there.

Yes, that's a hidden truth which we never know until long after this Coyotes' situation is put to rest. But then, I guess neither of us have the evidence to be using each other's arguments as to why the League doesn't want Balsillie to put a team in Hamilton.
Suffice it to say that the League is at least not keen on the idea of Balsillie putting a team in the Hamilton area, because we certainly haven't heard them say (to Balsillie): "you pay xxx amount of an Expansion Fee and Territorial Rights Fees, and we'll give you a team in xx number of years from now".
 

mouser

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Jul 13, 2006
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You see, that's it. Can someone please confirm that this is exactly the case?

Balsillie says that he's been told straight out that MLSE will never grant him the rights to put a team in Hamilton... my interpretation being, no matter what Territorial Fee amount he might pay. Or at least making it an amount that would be ridiculous even for Balsillie to pay.

While others are arguing that it's just that Balsillie refuses to pay any Territorial Fees.

Can someone show us some evidence as to which of these arguments is the truth?

MLSE cannot unilaterally determine what a Territorial Fee would be to place another team in their home territory, nor veto a move on their own. The BoG collectively votes and approves those conditions.

That was one of the key elements why the Canadian Competition Bureau found no fault when Balsillie registered a complaint with them over the Nashville situation.
 
Nov 13, 2006
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This is something that is going to become increasingly disputed in the NHL if certain markets do not have their demand satisfied. It is not exactly easy for a person from Southern Ontario to go to a game in Buffalo or Toronto; it's possible, and it's not incredibly difficult, but with a person willing to buy a hockey team and place it in the area from a business perspective, unless something in the long-run hurts there is no rational reason to withhold.

You are absolutely correct. If the deamand isn't met, someone may choose to put a hockey team there. Perhaps several groups will put together a competing hockey league, sort of an updated WHA. If the league doesn't locate teams in the GTA, MB, Hartford, and possibly other sites, someone else just might. The NHL doesn't have to be the only NA major hockey league.
 

MoreOrr

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MLSE cannot unilaterally determine what a Territorial Fee would be to place another team in their home territory, nor veto a move on their own. The BoG collectively votes and approves those conditions.

That was one of the key elements why the Canadian Competition Bureau found no fault when Balsillie registered a complaint with them over the Nashville situation.

AHHH,... but I've never contended that the MLSE are in this alone. I'm simply saying that MLSE has huge influence in the League, and that what they want strongly influences the BOG. Of course, I'm only using personal speculation here, but beyond not expanding/maintaining "the NHL's horizons" in Arizona, what other strong reasoning does the League have against a team being put in the Hamilton area?
And if it is in fact all about Expansion/Territorial Rights Fees that Balsillie refuses to pay then where's the evidence that the League even ever presented Balsillie with $$ figures? The League can just come right out and say: "We told Balsillie that if he wants a team in Hamilton then what he has to do is pay xxx amounts in Expansion/Territorial Rights Fees, but he refuses to do so and keeps trying these relocation tactics".

And I said this earlier, it's not only the strong blocking of the MLSE and its influence in the League. There are a significant number of other teams that wouldn't want another team almost anywhere in the east. Again, Buffalo would be specifically effected with a team in Hamilton. Detroit's objective to eventually be in the East would be further hindered. And the inevitable realignment could effect any number of different teams that don't wan their current alignment changed: St. Louis, Chicago, Colorado, Atlanta, Vancouver, the whole NW Division, Boston, Pittsburgh or Philadelphia... one or more of those teams could potentially have their Divisional alignment changed. Keeping the team in Phoenix doesn't change anything, or even if the Coyotes were to be moved to Kansas City or some other western city.
 
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The Pouzar

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The Kop
And the ground travel at the other end is a bigger factor. If you're flying to Phoenix you're going straight to a premium airport and you'll have close access to where you're staying.

I've made several business trips to Ontario recently, and find that going through Lester Pearson airport and then having to get out on the 401 is more grueling than the actual flight, especially if your final destination isn't right close by. Flying in to Toronto and then having an hour+ drive to get where you're going is grueling. Now, I don't know much about Hamilton's airport, but my experience is that communities with much larger airports nearby tend to have miserable air facilities that just act as feeders to the major airport, often run restricted hours (ie, a team wanting to fly into Hamilton or out of Hamilton right after a game might well be SOL at their airport.)
I see Hamilton as a preferred location to fly into as there are less flights into the airport so it would be easier to get your teams charter in and out of. As well it is located close to both Buffalo and Toronto , you could fly into it play in Hamilton one night and take a bus to your next game in either Toronto or Buffalo.
 
Nov 13, 2006
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Ohio
Irreparable damage. Your words.

I-R-R-E-P-A-R-A-B-L-E damage. I called you on it. Don't try to revise at this stage. (I'm not buying the irreparable damage part.)

I-R-R-E-P-A-R-A-B-L-E damage- A team in Hamilton will reduce revenues in both Buffalo and Toronto. The Sabres stand to lose up to 20% of their market and therefore their revenue base. According to Forbes, the Sabres had 76 million in total revenues last year. Reducing that likely places the Sabres in bankruptcy reasonably soon. How would you propose to repair that? Additionally, losing control over location rights reduces the value of all franchises. How much would it reduce the value of the Maple Leafs? How does one repair that? It also reduces the value of the remaining teams. Repair that?
 
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